2 hp and ep per stat point? (Full Version)

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Remorse -> 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:24:10)

So I was thinking about the change to hp and energy and how they reduced it to 1 (per stat) and now 1.25 or whatever it is and I was wandering... why?


I can understand the need to when their was enhancements as with so many stats already is the skills so much hp and energy made for pretty strong builds.


But now looking back to beta videos it is the high hp and ep that seems to allow for more variety and creativity to be viable.


Now I'm sure it may lead to some strong builds a long the way but nothing an individual nerf can't handle.

Basically what I'm saying is why didn't they give omega a go with 2 hp and energy per stat point?

When they changed two major things at once it's hard to see if it was even a good idea to do so when it it likely without the massive decrease in total stats (because of no enhancements) then perhaps hp and energy didn't need to become so small.


And then perhaps they wouldn't need to start making all the classes too similar in terms of all having a regain and drain now which is causing a few balance issues atm.



Anyway I would appreciate it if someone could explain the full reasoning behind this one because I think they shouldn't of at least done 2 major balance changes together in omega without first giving us the chance of trying the lack of enhancements without the hp and energy points nerf.



Mother1 -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:27:54)

While this would really help variety my on concern is that they might bring back that dreaded agility.

Personally I would love to see it go back to have 2 points per energy an health since it would give more variety back due to not having to invest so much of your points into something while leaving yourself open.



Ranloth -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:28:01)

I've dug up this very post for you, for an official explanation:
quote:

Here's the problem with giving *more* HP per stat point (and the reason why the current system of 2 HP per stat point is an issue).

Consider the relative gains that you get for stat points:
4-5 points give you +1 damage per round with strike.
3-4 points give you +1 def/res (or 6-8 points to guarantee -1 damage per round).
You also need a few points to increase damage on skills (amount variable depending on skill, but generally 3-5 points per damage, and they all have cooldowns so you aren't even getting +1 damage per round).

Compare this to your suggestion. For the same 5 points that gave me +1 damage per round, I can instead have +15 HP.
So if you take the damage, and I take the HP, the battle has to last AT LEAST 15 rounds for you to break even.
In other words, in a vast majority of battles, it's better for me to take the HP. Meaning the best possible build is to put every single point I can into Health and just wear down my opponent (This is exactly why Agility was implemented).

Not a very interesting range of builds.

However, if I have to choose between +1 damage and +5 Health, the optimal choice is a little less clear. In some cases I might want the Health, in other cases I might want the damage. In either case I probably want a little bit of both.

Now, if health becomes too low, there's a few ways we can counteract it while still providing an interesting choice between stats.

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20946007



kosmo -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:35:48)

the recent change to hp and ep incouraged already the investment in theese stats, but i also belive the scale should be improoved a bit, maybe 1.5hp/ep each stat point would be better.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:38:57)

^ But why not 2?

We can't really know what is better or not because lets face it most of us hadn't tried it without enhancements unless you count the time right before enhancements in beta.

And beta was by far my favorite phase so maybe it isn't an issue at all... in fact it could be part of a solution the game mechanics of this game is begging for.


@ trans ,

Thanks for digging that up though I have an issue with their explanation.

quote:

Compare this to your suggestion. For the same 5 points that gave me +1 damage per round, I can instead have +15 HP.
So if you take the damage, and I take the HP, the battle has to last AT LEAST 15 rounds for you to break even.
In other words, in a vast majority of battles, it's better for me to take the HP. Meaning the best possible build is to put every single point I can into Health and just wear down my opponent (This is exactly why Agility was implemented).




5*2 is 10..... not 15....


So battles need to last 10 turns and in many cases they do....

which means in my eyes it would only add more variety.

Plus they take no consideration into effects such as life steal effects which get significantly better the tankeir (and there fore less hp you have) are.



Low hp builds were still viable except for maybe when their was enhancement because damage was so strong with little sacrifice to defense and hp.



The point is they assumed with flawed logic that a hp build would be a better choice in every situation without even letting us try 2 stats per hp/ep with no enhancements??





Mother1 -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:51:38)

@ remorse

you have to also take into account that they didn't think like they were thinking now as well. If they were thinking like they were now back then I don't think they would have nerfed HP and EP at all. It would have made battles much longer especially without agility making HP a liability.

Only downside I can see with it was that anyone who wanted quick wins for the LB's would most likely quit due to matches being too long for them.



Ranloth -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:54:31)

I'll go for kosmo's suggestion. 2 HP/EP per stat would be a bit too much, since it was the reason why Agility was put into the game, to prevent HP abuse, and now that it's gone, they wouldn't want it back. I'll agree we need an increase, but not return to 2 HP/EP per stat.

Longer battles means luck has enough time to average out, and offensive builds are a bit weaker - since you can invest in HP and defense - but still providing a bit more variety. Of course, offensive builds would get an increase in HP/EP too, but for a defensive player, that HP would do more good due to additional defenses they have.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 11:59:42)

^ Agreed,


However as for it not going all the way to 2,


Don't forget agility was put in place the same time enhancements was, as well as many of the requirements of the time.




It is pretty safe to say that enhancements led to the needing of requirements who to say it didn't force the needing of agility as well?


Evidence being that pre enhancements in beta HP builds were NOT abused merely a part of variety.





ND Mallet -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 12:43:04)

The problem with just buffing health in the past was that people would just invest in it and still get good damage. 170 health Str BHs were hard to kill. That's why we ended up with Agility. Now with damage nerfed, we can actually get some better health and energy scaling without people investing in just two stats and winning every battle. I still stand by the idea of making health static and making it at least 200 at level cap



toopygoo -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 17:10:08)

my problem with current scaling isnt the health... i think 1.25 per point is plenty. my problem is that there is a new think, im sure you've all heard about called energy draining, which has taken the place of health draining. once your opponent has noe energy, its rather easier to defeat them. Either scale down all draining and regain and costs to 1/3 of what it is now. Everyone's tactics is now just run them dry and the hit them till the fall over... Its gotten old in 4 weeks since everyone runs it. 1/2 a year ago, energy drain was only popular among mercs, and bh's. Tacts didnt use them, and mages had them for energy regain rather than drain purposes. Now suddenly, in 3 weeks we had new costs added to nearly every non-basic skill (except bot cores), huge energy costs added to previously passive skills, and MUCH more useful energy drains which the mass majority of players is now using.

Making every 1/3 the costs would allow even having just 2-3 energy left over still useful for something. Suddenly draining becomes much more practical even if it is only for 3 remaining energy. This would restore more tanks, as they'd be able to heal with less.

Currently raw damage with a decent energy drain works so much faster than a complex (but effective) strategy, and thus we are seeing build constrictions we place among oursleves to keep up to competitive standards with top placers.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (11/30/2013 23:43:46)

^

Did you consider the idea that energy drains might be so effective because energy is so expensive to invest it??


If you look at beta builds a lot of them have 90+ energy which would mean it would take a lot of turns to drain all that and they would still be able to pull of an expensive move easily.


making both hp and energy 2 per point would probably fix energy drains without having to nerf them...


If people can't agree with the hp they can surely agree with making energy 2 per stat at least.



Pemberton -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 5:28:11)

I thinks energy must be 2 ep per stat because of all this energy drain crap.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 8:08:05)

i got an idea:
at level cap the hp should be 100 and the energy should be 45. HP will be changed to 1hp per point. however, energy will become 2.5 energy per point.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 8:48:16)

^ That is actually not a bad idea though instead of 100 hp more like 85.


And instead of 2.5 energy per stat only 2 and start at around 50



toopygoo -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 10:42:34)

quote:

Did you consider the idea that energy drains might be so effective because energy is so expensive to invest it??


not quite sure i get what this means...

Frequently, people dont max out their drains because they know that if them leave with just 0-16 energy, there is very little you can do with that. If everything were scaled down, except energy, then once again Cores would be useable, the new passive->active skills would be useable, and the old skills at high costs have a shot too. Making the ultimates too easy to counter means that few people would use them, and i think that takes away from the game. As a tech mage, i am able to blast my heal/plasma/ and ultimate whenever i want, because of battery backup... It provides lenience, and a Flexible strategy which has been 100% effective against all but BH's with the brute force/smoke build. The build itself is pretty simple, juist high tech, level 1 plasma, high battery, high assimilation, and level 1 super charge. i have minimum energy, and 80 Hp, and no strength. at level 25, VERY few people can deal huge energy to repeatedly, and i have a heal, a regenerator, and super charge to regain life. i have battery, regenerator and assimilation to regain energy. it can deal high damage, not every turn, but every 2 turns (on average). it can heal when necessary. it can drain, it can regain, its so versatile that i can out-tank tanks, or out-damage, glass cannons, unless they have a major level advantage (4-5 levels)

Because of its lenience with energy, i can use all my skills at mydiposal. if i feel i need to try to stun, then i always have energy for it. a multi, bludgeon, malfunction.. anything. With this build, i have every single mage skill available to me. no other class can do this.

the problem is that at higher levels, people can drain much more than what can be regained, or they too much damage to even be able to tank. Versatility in this game is key to a successful build. Locking everyone skills, by having their energy drains takes away from possibilities for versatility.


also, for ED divine darkness's idea, have you thought out how HP would scale? becasue level 1 at 65 HP is too much, and the battle woudl take too long, yet, gaining 2HP or more per level gives higher levels a greater advantage then they already have... The scaling for that would be really difficult to nail.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 11:09:57)

^ What I meant by that is this:


Currently energy requires 1.25 stat point to increase it.


This means that like you said people find it hard to have enough energy to use skill, because why would someone invest in energy if it is so damn expensive.



Currently I have not seen any builds use any energy amount past 80 effectvely in omega.


So perhaps they need to consider changing the energy cost to 1 stat= 2 energy.


This means people that are limited by energy drains can simply increase their base energy to ensure they have some left over for skills.


Honestly the change to 1 or 1.25 for hp and ep per stat was pretty silly because I so no need when their is no enhancements.



Ranloth -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 11:24:50)

Actually, the necessity to invest in Energy has fallen down since Delta. Some skills have received lower EP cost - compared to Delta - and every single class has Energy drain and return, which they didn't have during the passives era and back in Delta. Furthermore, scaled Energy has increased the base amount which we have thus further lowering the need to invest in Energy.

In fact, slower scaling for EP was not the reason why players rarely invest in it nowadays, but the level scaling and higher base Energy overall, as well as skills that return it.

Interestingly enough, I'd have expected players to invest more in Energy after the passives change, but this wasn't the case at all! They can still use their builds efficiently with the base Energy they have and the skills which provide them Energy as well.

So, the only change that should be done was putting it to 1.5 HP/EP per stat point, especially after the damage has been lowered from weapons and stat progression alike - and defenses minimally - so higher HP will improve tankiness, reduce effectiveness of offensive builds, and prolong battles thus allow luck to average out over the course of the battle.
Putting it at +2 would only cause something similar to Agility, to return and kinda render defense useless due to slower scaling it has (4-5 stats for +1 Def/Res, whilst 4-5 stats would provide you 8-10 HP instead).
With +1.5, 4-5 stats would give you 6-7.5 (6-8) HP, which is just above defense, but not exactly - faster progression until 55 stats and then slows down again at 85, so it should make them roughly equal.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 12:34:09)

well, maybe you should get 100 hp AND energy base values? this would allow people to e more dtrategic with their energy. for example say a tec spam bounty hunter uses static grenade: i can then have enough energy for a max EMP/atom smash.



Teserve -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 13:11:20)

I agree with Trans, I believe that it should be 1.5/pt.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/1/2013 19:40:58)

@ Trans,


That would be the case and I would agree,

But it doesn't allow for any freedom to change the mechanics of the game.


For example I think they should revert their current opinion on giving all classes both and energy regain and drain.


I think each class should have either a decent energy regain and no drain, or a decent energy drain and no regain , or a medium combination of both.


This would only be possible however with decent energy scaling, please do not assume that is my opinion with the current system.




Reason why I would like to see this change is because cores for one can become the gap that a class needs, for example don't have a regain? don't worry their is cores that can do that and/or you can invest in high energy.


Don't have a drain? Their are also multiple cores that can do that as well as long as anything new they make.


I believe classes should have more obvious differences the current thinking here is to make all classes have versions of the same things and lets face it that makes it boring and easier to compare which skill are overpowered as they are so similar.






Hence I think changing energy to 2, and then adjusting classes skill back to what they were originally over time.

Which shouldn't be too hard since most of these skill already exist.
BH should return to only having EMP, Blood mages can keep energy parasite but perhaps make it drain a fixed amount but slightly less as in perhaps 5 energy per turn fixed.

Mages can keep battery and lose the strong assimilation, perhaps return it to how it was originally as in a max of 10, but unblockable.


TLMs should keep battery and perhaps a new energy drain skill which drains a small amount but attacks at the same time ( similar to assimilation) in the place of atom smash

And mercs should return to having atom smash but make it unblockable.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/2/2013 15:47:47)

quote:

And mercs should return to having atom smash but make it unblockable.


then they would be the weak class, having no way to regen energy.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/3/2013 6:48:14)

^
Wow did you even read what I wrote?

Not all classes should be able to regain energy and that is justified by all my conditions above.





Ranloth -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/3/2013 9:29:02)

If we had passives and cores didn't cost Energy, not all classes would need Energy drain and return. Since battles rely heavily on Energy (skills, cores, etc.), every class must have a source of Energy to be able to use their skills more and counter their opponent by draining Energy.



Remorse -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/3/2013 10:24:27)

^ So essentially it becomes a battle of who have the best energy manipulating skills, which currently BHs win by a long shot with 60+ energy manipulation in a single turn followed by tech mages with 37 (battery) in one turn and 25 (assimilation drain plus regain) = around 57 over two turns..


Isn't it strange how those are the 2 obviously dominating classes atm...



What they could do to balance better is simply increase the base energy to increase 2 per stat, because like you said, "Since battles rely heavily on Energy"


Because currently having it as 1.25 per stat is simply a waste even with the high need of energy.



kosmo -> RE: 2 hp and ep per stat point? (12/3/2013 10:47:55)

assimilation drain plus regain ammounts to 25 only whit minimum strenght, whit 45 strenght it already drains 22 (for a total of 33).

and i dont see how such a big change to ep could help, since the energy gap would still exist due to the umbalanced drains/regains



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