Tier List Poll (Full Version)

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Exploding Penguin -> Tier List Poll (12/2/2013 20:23:26)

So with the humongous balance changes that came after my previous tier list which, for the most part, got positive feedback, I'm thinking of making another one. This new one will have an updated system on comparing the classes to be a little more fair since last time it was more rounded and ambiguous with its mere win/loss/draw comparison. What I also want to do different with this tier list is get people's own opinions. So, I'm going to ask a question, and please respond to it in the most detailed way as possible. While I want it to be extremely detailed, don't provide exact examples. Feel free to provide sample examples that are ambiguous if you want to prove a point about a class. Exact numbers and comparisons are also greatly appreciated, and the more people who reply with their thoughts the better.

So.. here's the prompt:

Which class do you think is best, which class do you think is worst, and which class(es) do you think are right in the middle? Answer with at least 3 classes addressing the 3 questions, and provide information and facts as detailed as possible to back up your choices. Your reasoning should be to the point, uses a good amount of facts and/or numbers, and should clearly show your thoughts on balance between classes.

Notice that it says "Between," meaning that you will need to compare in order to best prove your points.

Thanks for spending your time to answer this prompt!



Hellion Storm -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/2/2013 21:09:00)

1-Bher:Greatest energy control with second highest energy gain and amazing tech synergy,can shut down entire builds and block more than any other class with smokescreen.

2-TM:Lowest energy control but highest energy gain and can contribute nothing to sup and str and easily hit over 40's with little investment in skills.

3-Merc:Middle of the road energy gain and energy control.Has decent tech synergy with bunker buster and surgical strike.

4-TLM:2nd lowest energy control and the third highest energy gain,blockable energy control and must use a hammer to have any energy control.Has decent support synergy with Artillery strike coupled with toxic grenade.

5-Bm:Worst energy control tied with the worst energy gain with Cher. Lost a lot of power with the removal of passives.Still has decent strength synergy with mark of blood and bludgeon.

6-Cher:Fourth highest energy control with the worst energy gain, limited to focus 5 or strength builds,has to have a decent strength stat to have any chance to gain energy and one of the two only energy control moves that cost energy.


Energy means a lot in this meta considering everything outside the 3 strikes and the two recovery cores use it.


Just did power hr and a few more matches. fought 30 bhers in a row then fought a guy working on a cyber hunter.Even tho I won most of them I'm tired of fighting the same build 30 times in a row.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/2/2013 23:26:46)

quote:

Just did power hr and a few more matches. fought 30 bhers in a row then fought a guy working on a cyber hunter.Even tho I won most of them I'm tired of fighting the same build 30 times in a row.


Ha, same here. Couldn't stand all the mass BHs in Delta even though I could beat them... made 1v1 boring beyond belief. Now I mostly stick to 2v2 unless I'm questing. Anyways, thanks for the detailed response! I'll definitely be taking everything you said into consideration, and I do say I have to agree at least more than partially with the fact that energy flow is pretty much the entire metagame now.



Pemberton -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/2/2013 23:52:35)

1) BH - Can regain hp, infinite energy steal and regain (LOL), strong debuff, tech builds too strong (5 focus), Str abuse ( no support requirements on skills what???)
2)Tech Mage - Caster big damage with high defense, energy regain, poison bot abuse, you can't even crit 17 support what???
3) Blood Mage - balanced class, no change needed
4) Tactical - balanced, no change needed
4) Cyber Hunter = balanced, no change needed
4) Merc - blockable static = auto lose, useless skill adrenaline rush, hybrid armor weaker than mineral and plasma armor



DarkDevil -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/3/2013 0:42:04)

^ch , no it is UP , emp needs to scale on lvls too and static charge needs to give more , i think trans suggestion on it will make it more effective especially for moderate str against high armor.
massacre is also UP , both classes don't have effective way of regaining energy , and it has recieved an unnecessary nerf when weapons were nerfed unlike other skills.

merc: hybrid armor is equal to other armors except devided , a lvl 8 of it can totally shut down all routes for 4 turns , i think armor skills are OP for tier 1.

bm: it needs a more reliable way of draining energy , i think reducing the gain to 1 instead of 1.5 and making it on the max energy insread of current.
this could make a guaranteed 28 energy unless he can dispose of all his energy in less than 3 turns.

tlm: it needs better snyrgy , it has only supp or str builds , more should be added viable , i agree it should have smoke instead of frenzy , why frenzy ? because when smoke is added this class has a strong way of regaining energy so it shouldn't have a way to regain hp.
also double strike should need club just like plasma bolt and cheapshot , the art can change.

bh: static grenade is like static smash just more drain and less regain because of its main purpose of destroying energy.
also there is support requirement on skills.
smoke has supp requirement and no it can't get higher because of its tier 1 skill , also masacre has high supp requirement.
also it's main purpose was shuting down builds while having the lowest damage output.



Altador987 -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/3/2013 2:47:11)

1.Bounty hunter
Skillset: 9 out of 10, not so sure about shadow arts and always questioned the stun grenade as the mage's stun is better but overall most skills work quite well
Synergy: 10 out of 10, there's an even balance of synergy defensively and offensively
Bugs: static grenade when used at lower mp lvls can regain more than what should be possible

2. Techmage
Skillset: 10 out of 10, there isn't a useless or less desirable skill they have (firescythe may seem weaker than bludgeon but in turn is unblockable)
Synergy: 7 out of 10, there are too many skills that are affected by str and dex (the dex in turn affects tech by use of technician) so there's a little imbalance there
Bugs: none really other than how synergy has affected certain skills and builds to be more desirable


3. Bloodmage
Skillset: 9 out of 10, while parasite is the weakest of the mp controllers the skills are all very decent
Synergy: 10 out of 10, there's an even balance of synergy defensively and offensively
Bugs: parasite could possibly use some buffing


4: Mercenary
Skillset: 9 out of 10, no one really uses adrenaline rush but every other skill is on par
Synergy: 6 out of 10, dexterity isn't needed at all... other than for hybrid however armor stats can make up for that and most focus is on support and strength which mercs can strengthen due to the skill that improves with support
Bugs: dexterity should be incorporated to add more variety

5: Tactical Mercenary
Skillset: 7 out of 10, the stun is questionable and the poison has a 1 turn cooldown which is ridiculous
Synergy: 6 out of 10, tech is really only needed for surgical strike or a robot, and while dex has been evenly incorporated the offensive skill isn't very desirable
Bugs: Poison needs to be fixed there is nothing tactical about the strongest poison that costs less than the hunter's to have a 1 turn cooldown

6: Cyber Hunter
Skillset: 7 out of 10, plasma grenade is an even worse stunner than stun grenade and once again shadow arts is in the air, static charge was only improved slightly and now has a 3 lvl cooldown so if one doesn't have a strength and support build than you're screwed not to mention even if you do you are more than likely giving your opponent something to steal more than for you to use
Synergy: 5 out of 10, dexterity is literally only used for defense and multi, tech may be evenly spread but the offensive skill affected by it makes the stat less desirable, leaving only strength and support as any real option
Bugs: synergy is a huge factor in why Cyber hunters need health, static charge also needs to be tweaked, it can't crit, it can't be used in rage, it can't be blocked but that doesn't really matter if the opponent has any sense and uses a shield and the cooldown for regain is as long as every other class's drain


mind you i'm also thinking of this as if offense and defense were equal as i'm hoping they intend to fix that and it's the best way to compare



FrostWolv -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/3/2013 4:34:52)

1. Bounty Hunter:-

Energy Control:- Best Energy drain for 0 energy unblockable ingame .... with a sufficient energy gain

Synergy:- Has decent synergy with strength, dex, and tech .... but has no reliable build with support

Comment:- Strongest class in game coz of Static Grenade

2. Tech Mage:-

Energy Control:- Good 22 Energy drainer for 0 enegy with 3 to X damage with rage gain and rage hit .... Best energy gain paired with TLM

Synergy:- Has decent synergy with all stats: str, dex, tec and support

Comment:- Looking for Diversity in build then this is a class for you ..... wanna be sick tank caster then again this is a class for you

3. Mercenary:-

Energy Control:- ok energy gain and energy drain skill with Static Smash for 0 energy to use but comes with must have Club to get it done

Synergy:- Str, tec, and support synergy .... with no dex synergy

Comment:- a well balanced class with a decent synergy

4. Tactical Mercenary:-

Energy Control:- Best energy gain paired with TM with a sufficient energy drain skill

Synergy:- Str, tec, and support synergy ....... with no dex synergy with stun grenade

Comments:- The main thing that kills this class is second worst SKILL TREE after CH . Just adopt with any of its synergy and spam poison

5. Blood Mage:-

Energy Control:- Worst energy control in game game if it is energy gain or energy drain but is for 0 energy cost and needs a primary

Synergy:- has decent synergy with Str, Dex, and Tec ..... has no reliable synergy with support

Comments:- Only fails against other class in terms of Energy control.

6. Cyber Hunter:-

Energy Control:- Strength dependent energy gain .... has inferior version of Static Grenade which drains only +4 energy than it and gains nothing and costs 10-20 energy to use it

Synergy:- Strength is its only buddy in terms of synergy ........ with removal of scaling in malf ruined its support aid with other buffs like ES, PA, Technician......... has WORST skill tree

Comments:- Like playing strike ur opponent till eternity ... this is perfect class for you



santonik -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/3/2013 11:12:07)

1. Bountyhunter

At the game's best offensive combination.

---- (Static Emp) (Over-efficient and free to use)
---- (Smoke) Although this has been weakened, so this is a really strong skill and cheap to use. (Tech abusive builds)
---- (Hatchling Rush) This reduces heal very much and it is cheap to use.
---- (Bot Core) slight differences in tactics

skiltree
Boytnyhunters good side is good defence abilty too. No need much skilltree points to defence skills. normally 1-3 points. And this give good defence. (wierd)
Defence buffs is very cheap to use. because of this.

Focus builds is too affective now. thanks to extreme synergys. This moments easyest class to play. (every good skill support focus builds !!!)

Boyntyhunter;s EMP vs others energy moves. Static emp is number 1 (NOTE Parasite can be sometimes better. More info to later). Boynty emp be take out 40 energy and gain 20 energy same time whit 70 tech. (10lvl static emp.)
70 Tech is very low. i can make this Static emp even my own boynty what is 16lvl. I noticed boyntys EMP is too good now. No matter what other saying.

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2. Techmage

Techmage endless looping. It is too good now.
Battery , Assimilation , Heal , low lvl plasma bolt and armor core dont forgot super charge..
Combination is too good. Techmage gains infinite sum energy. only minus is time. Yes time. No enemy energy destroy skills cant destroy this looping. Techmage can prevent enemy player attacking themselves. Assimilation doing this. This destroy enemys energy and techmage gain few points extra energy too. Dont forgot rage. Poison bot make this build even stronger.

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3 Tactical mercenary

Poison grenade, Battery , artillery strike and aux. This is nasty combinations. (I see broplem to poison grenade. It can use so fast again.)

People dont use high enrgy builds. Over 125 energy. Sounds odds but this can be even better than merc versions (Normally im play merc). I see good potential many skills what is good to high energy builds. (poison grenade and surcical strike , Battery heal and cores support even more.) Dont forgot high energy players can play very tactical.

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4. Mercenary (My main character is Punkki)

Every builds what i have doing this class is good points and weak points always. So this class can be good something BUT always coming weakness too.
High energy builds can be very big suprise to many players. I tested some high energy build already. This time i have 166 energy build. and i noticed it works sometimes. (boynty and both mages is brobplems)
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5. Bloodmage

This seems to be balanced. The only thing I would change is the Parasite.( This needs limit http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21512095&mpage=1&key=�)

Parasite is weak against low energy builds what using fast their own energy.

Parasite is good against 70-90 energy player. Because enemy cant use so fast them energy.

Parasite is BEST, yes BEST energy skill in the game. In this case. Against high energy players. (and boss too) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO9Sq8wpgOg

quote:

Parasite is weak against low energy build. I noticed too that. Most players play minimun energy. (about 60 energy)

Parasit is semi good medium energy players (70-90 energy)

Parasite move is even better if you see high energy player. Myself i play high energy so i know.

113 my today energy. Parasite is number 1 against high energy players beacuse it has % damage and 1,5 multiplaying. IT make bloodmages to god against high energy players.
Parasite isnt so good balance now.

113
------=16.96(17)(turn1)
15%


113-17=96

96
---=14.4(15)(turn2)
15%


96-15=81


81
----=12.15 (13)(turn3)
15%


I lose 17-15-13=45 in 3 turns it is even bette than Static EMP. Bloodmage gain 1 turn 17+(8.5)9=26 energy !!! 2 turn 15+(7.5)8=23 energy!!! 3 turn 13+(6.5)7 20 energy !!!
(remember multiplaying) (turn1)26+(turn2)23+(turn3)20= IT IS ONLY 69 FREE ENERGY !!!

Even i using my energy. Bloodmage get guaranteed 40+ energy!!! Parasite need LIMITED some how.

Static emps can take instantly about 46 and gain 23 energy. IT is game breaker move too.

THis is show how affective parasite can be.

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6. Cyberhunter

Very close to balance. I think this is better class if others classes fix better balance.

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Btw now game is too much energy versus energy. All energy destroy skills , energy leeching skills and energy gaining skill is littlebit too affective. (expect cyberhunter static charge.)



Wootz -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/3/2013 17:40:16)

The top:
By my opinion and understation the top is shared between Tech Mages and Bounty Hunters. Both classes have great synergy between their skill trees and the PC stats. Both classes have equal capabilities by their EP drain/gain moves. Which being compared by each other levels them out completly. Tech Mages having a better EP regen with their two gains, although one of them has a drain that is more then capable to make a build go epileptic, while the Bounty Hunters have Static Grenade which is capable to drain between 30 to 48 EP (from how much I saw it) from a target and regain half of it: 15-24. Which by my thoughts is a perfectly good regain to make the class equal to other classes regain. In my opinion those two classes are balanced in their power, unlike the other ones which need buffs in order too make it to their level.

The middle:
The middle is shared by Mercenaries and Cyber Hunters. Cyber Hunter unlike their counterpart have a really messed up skill tree which doesn't have a great synergy, even saying poor synergy is just overrated for it, while Mercenaries have a great skill tree by which they can make builds being powered by different stats. The Cyber Hunters are more versitaile then the other classes which means they can have a great number of builds being used for them which is allowed by the bad-synergyizing skill tree of their. Both classes can push builds that can pretty much ravage others and have good capabilities for both offense and defense.

The bottom:
Blood Mages take the number last spot because, simply put, they just don't generally good as the other classes in PvP. Builds are mostly simple and easy to counter, even though their skill tree is quite cheap and easy to get synergyied to the PC stats, although I think that the players playing the class might try different builds to come up with something new. The loss of passive skills really ravaged that class.

I haven't listed any Tactical Mercenaries as only builds I've fought againts them were Support, Tank and Strenght, which doesn't really give me a good insight at the class.



Hellion Storm -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/3/2013 20:09:50)

Anyone else notice that a few weeks ago when tm was top tier the balance board was flooded with nerf tm now but now that Bh is the op class no-one is saying anything about it? That and bh seems far more common atm then the tm was a few weeks ago.

Update:I fought my first TLM in the last two days today woot!



lionblades -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/3/2013 21:36:55)

quote:

1. BH & TM (TM is for people with poison bot--see KR3P4X 100% ratio with 60 wins!)-->http://it.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lawvmx&s=5#.UpqP-sRDu5U
2. Merc (usually str abuse or supp abuse)
3. Cyber Hunter (not bad but still below par)
4. BM (no synergy and parasite is near useless) & TLM (it can not out-tank nor out damage only decent build is supp-poison but is easily countered)

These are all from my experiences from this current update so it may vary from player to player.

From my previous post in a different thread [:D]

Also, based on all these answers it is pretty clear that the basic starter classes are better than the evolved classes.



Bionic Bear -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/4/2013 15:35:50)

Top
1. Bounty Hunter
Near-perfect synergy with skills- static/smoke/MoB work very well, and work with good defenses plus bot/static which work well also.
2. Tech Mage
Casters are now among the top. Tech abuse works too well. High level p-bolt and supercharge +battery are very strong. Take away their energy, bam, battery backup saves their day.

Bottom- TLM
Terrible synergy with skills, unless you spam support and artillery. Possibly stun plus surgical plus 5 focus and a bot might work well, but not that much, I don't think. Double strike costs too much to be an effective damage dealer, and has no other strength skills to supplement it.

That be my input.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/5/2013 15:01:50)

Since there's new balance changes coming this Friday, I encourage everyone who has already submitted their answer to go back and revise their posts once playing with the upcoming balance update.

Also, for those interested in how this tier list's going to work, I will now be addressing multiple different categories for rankings rather than a single "this class beats this one" ranking. The rankings will also not be a yes/no/neutral choice, but the classes will be ranked from -2 to +2, with 2 classes having a neutral value in ranking (0). The different categories I will address are: Energy Flow, Offensive Capabilities, Survival Capabilities, and the classic matchup system from the previous tier list. Therefore, each class's score will be summed up with 4 different values ranging from -2 to 2. The ranking will still be comparison-based, and will not be viewed as an individual class against another individual class, but the individual class against any general opponent who has an equal chance of being any class.



Hellion Storm -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/5/2013 20:52:41)

I'll end up dieing of laughter if bhers get nerfed and ppl flood the forums



lionblades -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/6/2013 21:40:30)

I'm going to switch Cyber Hunter and BM in my rankings above. Just fought this guy a couple times named Time loop (or something like that?) and he was pretty good.



Altador987 -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/7/2013 0:01:23)

i'll stick to my original post as they didn't really change much other than fixing bounty hunters so i'm hoping they do so with the rest soon



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/7/2013 12:50:11)

okay, the deadline will be extended to thursday instead of monday. This should give enough time for the next DNs which will hopefully tell if more balance updates are going to happen soon.



Ranloth -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/7/2013 13:13:34)

I'll try to keep it short but detailed. :p

Bounty Hunter:
  • Excellent Tech synergy with skills and other items. Has viable Dex and Strength builds as well, thus can be diverse.
  • (Too) Powerful Energy drain skill, which gives them a bit too much power.
  • Diverse skills after the passives change, and quite good synergy. In other words, all-round class.

    Tech Mage / Mercenary:
  • A fair synergy between some skills - excellent Caster for TMs and great Tech synergy for Mercs.
  • Diverse skills which can result in variety of builds, if you decide to do so.
  • Although, they could use some improvements as individual classes - TMs need better defense, whilst Mercs could get something for better defense or better effect-based skills. *looks at Adrenaline Rush*

    BloodMage:
  • Can create a fair amount of builds, which work a bit better since Energy Parasite has been introduced - albeit, in my opinion, a bit too weak when it comes to damage penalty it has.
  • Has some synergy between skills, but a very limited variety regardless - it may be creative, but not necessarily powerful.

    Tactical Mercenary / Cyber Hunter:
  • Awful synergy between many skills, for both classes alike.
  • Very limited amount of builds that actually work effectively, due to poor synergy between skills.
  • I'd say, they could use some improvements - something unique that could provide decent synergy between skills and improve their performance.



    • Virtual Earthquake -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/7/2013 21:01:09)

    1. Bounty Hunter

    Definitely "OP" due to the deadly Static Grenade, if you're a mindless drone with no creativity or imagination I suggest you switch to this class, unless you already are.

    2. Tech Mage

    This class is barely second due to BHs, because of the infamous Caster Builds (I am a Caster myself, and it works great), if you have Pyro Fly this build is close to unstoppable.

    3. Merc

    I was a Merc before and they're pretty good if your smart enough. Pretty much just have to be a tank with a Poison Bot or Infernal A. and you'll do good against all the classes (Against Bounty Hunters, wins are pretty iffy)

    4. Tactical Merc

    The only reason this build is in fourth place is because of the new-ish Poison/Sup/Aux/Artillery Build, which is great against mindless noobs, but if you go against someone crafty, they can pretty easily destroy you.
    The Surgical Strike build sucks nowadays due to the Passive to Actives change, so that's pretty much the only viable build, maybe a Strength one too.

    5. Blood Mage

    This class always bored me so I don't use it much but from what I gathered it's pretty "UP" due to Deadly Aim being gone and the crappy Parasite, so the only builds you can use that are pretty mediocre are Str/Mark of Blood/Bludgeon Build, or a crappy 5 Focus build.

    6. Cyber Hunter

    This class is last because it's absolute crap. The only decent-ish build is the Sup/Str Malf Build, and even then it sucks, I would not recommend a tank build because of the Passive change, you can easily be beaten. Definitely needs a buff.

    Highest Win Ratio:

    Either BH or Tech Mage.

    BH if you like to be a build-copy drone and TM if you're crafty enough.



    Pemberton -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/7/2013 21:04:32)

    After the Dec. 6 "Balance Fix"...nothing has changed...lmao



    GearzHeadz -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/7/2013 21:09:26)

    I'd beg to differ, much less energy gain from BH.



    Hellion Storm -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/8/2013 8:57:08)

    Pemberton and Virtual Earthquake are pretty cool guys. Also, My tier list stays the same nothing has changed with this patch.



    Exploding Penguin -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/11/2013 23:58:36)

    Hey everyone, just wanting to let you know the poll closes tomorrow.

    Thanks for all the input; I'll definitely consider it when making the tier list! It may take a while so please be patient, and I can't wait to see what results it'll yield this time.



    FrostWolv -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/12/2013 0:29:32)

    I will stay with my post ....... only SG bug was removed in last balance update ...... nothing changed.



    Dual Thrusters -> RE: Tier List Poll (12/12/2013 1:02:06)

    1. BH

    It has great potential with Static Grenade. Almost any build is possible with this class, because they have such a versatile skill tree. If one is engaged with a Tech Mage, they will surely out-tank them because SG only has a 3 turn cooldown. Don't forget, they can smoke right after the mage is unable to use his shield.

    To summarize, this class is very Versatile and Easy to use.

    2. TM

    Incredible for both tanking and strength builds. Has two shields and two energy buffers, making you prepared for almost anything. Unblockable attacks help protect you from luck factors.

    To summarize, this class is very Focused, so it requires you to sacrifice either consistent offense, or consistent defense to use either buids.

    3. CH

    Pretty versatile. As long as you time your skills right, you can be a real threat. EMP helps make sure you can keep your opponent under control. Static Charge lets you unsuspectingly scrap little EP so you can turn the tables later in the game without your opponent knowing what hit them. It has one good shield, and another decent one as long as it is kept at a high level.

    With a massacre build, this bad boy can rage almost insatantly. Combining EP regenerating Cores with static charge almost always ensures that you can use your nuke every game. However, the cost of this devastating combo is absolutely no defenses

    To summarize, Cyber Hunter is the Jack of all trades, but the master at none.

    4. Merc

    Has a very devastating Tank build. Intimidate synergizes with your defenses, making sure your opponent always does low damage. When timed correctly, Hybrid Armor can be a real pain. Bunker buster is pretty much a free nuke- moderately low EP cost, Ignores Defenses, and has a high chance to crit meaning it ignores even more defenses. Static Smash is a two in one EP drainer.

    To summarize, Merc is slow but high Damage dealing class.

    5. BM

    This class has two shields, making it prepared for debuffs. Intimidate ensures you that only YOU will be dealing good strength damage. Parasite really depends on how much your opponent invests into EP, which practically no one does. Bludgeon is nice to deal a low costing nuke. Plasma Cannon should only be used in certain situations, but can be deadly when left alone.

    To summarize, this class has potential, but it requires a lot of brains to be successful.

    6. TacMerc

    Has very bad Synergy. The only good build is Support, which can be easily countered. You are forced to invest into Tech more than dex, meaning Mineral armor is slightly weaker than Plasma Armor. Frenzy is ironic for a class that doesn't have many strength based skills. Blood Sheild is also ironic because shields are supposed to lengthen your life, not shorten it :/

    To summarize, you will need a full set of cores. In order to be succesfull, you need to have a main focus in one stat.

    (I personally want to try this class out. I haven't seen anyone use any good builds yet with this class. I have a build in mind, but I don't have a Tlm as any of my alts- since I've always preferred normal merc)



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