Energy and its effects (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 11:05:00)

This is something that have been posted for a while, and was brought up in the past as well. Although, there wasn't an issue then and neither is there now, sort of...

We're talking about the stat, Energy (EP). It scales +1.25 per stat point, just like HP - may be subject to change, it's in the air, since Rabble is still testing it all.
When Omega has started and the first few balance changes were released, we've had quite a few changes to it, namely: level scaling, increase in base Energy, and slowing down the level scaling on one occasion, and - of course - the change from 2 EP /stat, to 1 EP /stat.

One thing was brought up, by Remorse, which was pre-Omega Energy cost scaling on skills, and post-Omega Energy pool. Whilst we've had an increase here and there, and a decrease too, not mentioning changes to Energy being more valuable stat, compared to previous phases - removal of passives, cores costing Energy, etc. - but there has been some issues, and we're all, probably, aware of these.

Stats are designed to invest in them, if your builds requires as such. But training Energy has never really been done, apart from some extreme builds which weren't as common in Omega, as they were prior to Omega, but even then, investing in Energy wasn't really necessary.

Of course, we're looking for one factor to blame all of this on, so, which one will it be:
  • Scaling EP back to +1 per stat, and recently to +1.25 per stat
  • Increase in base Energy
  • (Slower) level scaling
  • Combination of two, or more.

    This is far from a complaint though. Just like Health (HP), Energy should have some sort of incentive to invest in it. Skills, if trained properly, won't require as much Energy and we can replenish Energy nowadays, by draining or using class-specific skills, or some cores even! Of course, you may think "Oh, but some people don't invest in HP and still win!", but they have something else to cover for their lack of HP, and that thing is called defense. In terms of Energy, it's either skills or stay with base amount, even if you plan on abusing skills, you will likely not need to invest into EP, at all.

    What am I getting at then? The importance of Energy and how poorly it's been designed, and it's not the stat alone to blame. Raising base Energy is a no-go, and neither is increasing the level scaling. Nerfing the base? Perhaps! Altering the skills' costs? Maybe.
    But we don't like big changes that can cause imbalance, even if you put a lot of time into it - therefore, altering all the skills is also a no-go. So, perhaps decreasing the base EP pool and slightly increasing the level scaling? That's not all! Putting it back at +2 EP per stat to fit the costs of Delta-statted skills, and fit around new actives and cores alike.
    Example? Current base EP pool would be lower by... perhaps -10 EP, but level scaling, which is +1 EP per 5 levels (IIRC), could be bumped to per 4 levels, which is trivial, but would speed it up in the future level cap raises and not make everyone take a big hit, too big perhaps.

    Furthermore, why won't lowering skill costs work? Some builds can abuse skills, without investing a lot of skill points into them. Example? Level 5 Plasma Bolt, 21 Energy, and can be quite powerful with a decent Caster build. Had the cost been lower, it'd be disastrous. Another example, high Tech and Smoke synergy, which doesn't require you to invest a lot of skill points into either.

    Lastly, even though the "nerf", may seem big, it's not. Of course, if you plan not to invest into EP, it will be quite a hit, but that's the point - put up with lower EP and find other sources of Energy, just like low HP builds have defense. Or do a bit of both, and be best of both worlds! Faster scaling means you can counter powerful Energy draining, and use cores more easily, and it gives indirect buff and nerf to some skills, i.e. Energy Parasite (buff), EMP-based skills (nerf), and most importantly, it gives you incentive to invest into Energy with decent returns.


    As it goes with my (long dull) threads, take all the facts into consideration and don't try basing it all on your personal opinion. Both are needed, because if you can't back up your point, i.e. "This is bad because it'll nerf my build...", then it isn't really constructive nor helpful. Try backing up your opinion with some facts, and try to respect others' opinions. ^^




  • martinsen5 -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 13:18:00)

    Not gonna say much, as I'm not that invested in how balance works, lol.

    But, if I understood you right, you mention how energy currently isn't something players invest in, which is true. However, I'm confused because as it stands right now, I can hardly afford using any of my cores because I'd have to sacrifice energy used for heals, (de)buffs, etc.

    So how will decreasing the energy pool do any good? Sure it's a way to force players to invest in the stat, but don't you think this would cause less players to actually bother with their energy?




    Mother1 -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 14:11:10)

    Here is another problem trans, when they cut our energy supply in half, they didn't do the same for the moves. Energy costs are still on the delta standard where as energy is in the omega. I see a big issue with this one.




    Ranloth -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 14:55:25)

    I've already covered it in the OP. Our base Energy would be higher than in Delta (thanks to level scaling), but lower than it is now & +2 EP per stat.




    Remorse -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 21:24:10)

    I have just thought of a great idea, nice post by the way trans very enlightening.

    Here is my idea what if they added a secondary type of cost called stamina primarly for cores but for certain free costing skills to.

    Stamina would be fixed at 50 for every class and level and would regain at a fixed 5 stanima per turn.

    Then things like cores can lose thier ep cost an instead have a stamina cost ranging on 5-30 depending on the power of the core.
    Also skills with no ep cost can be given a stanima cost eg given static grenades power cost 35 stamina at max therefore limiting the cores they can use untill the regain stamina at 5 per turn.

    Other skills that can be given a stamina cost include static smash, assim, battery, energy parasite, static charge.
    With the stamina cost determined by the power of the skill.

    This would make all skill have a cost and essentialy limit abuse, with stamina restrictions increasing with the more power if the skills, essentialy helping to balance without nerfing power.
    Stamina should also have no way to be inreased nor gain asside from the 5 per turn, for now anyway.

    Edit: it will also reduce the burden of ep having the core costs as well as lets people be able to use cores once all their energy has been drained and give a bonus to drains costing ep such as atom and emp.
    Also possibly give stamina costs to certain strong robot special moves.

    What do you think?





    Remorse -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 21:34:49)

    Edit accidental double post request delete.




    GearzHeadz -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 21:43:04)

    That's a good idea Remorse. Maybe a little bit a tweaking, but a good idea. And by the way, its called stamina.




    Remorse -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 21:48:58)

    Thanks gears also my dyslexia does not help my posts xD thanks for pointing that out.




    Teserve -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 22:14:09)

    @Remose
    So SG iwould be a 6 turn CD? Kinda long. Maybe cost 15 stamina if that gets implemented.




    Remorse -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/11/2013 22:22:33)

    The cool down is only increasd if you have max static remember since its only 35 at max.
    Also its not 6 say you use max static g for 35 stamina you have 15 remaining requiring 4 turns to get another 35. Not 6.

    Remember you get 5 stamina per turn and you start with a full 50.

    It will also encorage people to use lower levels of the skill so they are less stanima constricted which is a good thing.




    Ranloth -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/12/2013 8:41:41)

    Remorse has made a thread dedicated to the "Stamina" suggestion, so the discussion should go there: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=21537904

    We can't discuss one balance suggestion and try to improve it with yet another suggestion, thus, assuming both will be done. Because if one is done, and the other isn't, the whole discussion was just pointless. :p




    Remorse -> RE: Energy and its effects (12/12/2013 9:08:20)

    ^ I personally happy with either way to improve the game though now that I think about it the stamina suggestion will also help to improve future abuse of cores as well as give 0 costing skill a cost making it something you can consider when trying to counter.

    Eg. Say if your a tech mage and you wanna use battery but you can't cause the static grenade will drain it plus give them energy, if they has a stamina cost the mage could wait for a time when the BH has too low stamina to use it, to use battery.




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