Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (Full Version)

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edwardvulture -> Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/15/2014 21:08:22)

We all know that this is the least invested stat in-game besides energy(there need to be incentives to buff that stat too).
Lets get real, first turn only really helps if you have the exact same build as your opponent. It is OK for lower levels to start first but we need to give support more solid uses instead of luck based ones.
Here are some ideas:
1. Move gun damage to support.<-------perfect counter to dex/str striking builds.
2. Scale core effects on support.
3. Reduce heal scaling by level and make it scale slowly on support.
4. Make energy losing/gaining moves scale with support.

What do you think should be done so support builds can become relevant again?



Mother1 -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/15/2014 22:08:27)

If anything this will overpower support based builds even if they do lose the first advantage.

Remember support has just about every luck feature in the game other than blocks and deflections.

Even without support making everyone go first while it would nerf strength builds, it would overpower strength support, or just plain support ones.



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/15/2014 23:04:45)

In no ways am I implying that all the ideas are going to be used. They're just examples to make support stronger. I personally like number one. The luck factors left would be crits and stuns. Crits have been nerfed and not many builds use stuns as part of their routine.



Remorse -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/15/2014 23:15:06)

I personally think support should keep starting chance.
Not because I think support needs it but mainly because it keeps Strength builds at bay.

Str builds would become OP if suddenly they started as much as all other builds even if they didn't have gun damage.
Belive it or not having it improve with support reduces luck in battles because if STR builds suddenly started as much as every other build then games would be even more determined by other luck factors that come to play.

Don't get me wrong I agree support needs a buff of some sort, just it needs to have the start chance for the sole purpose of giving OP effortless STR builds a dsiadvanatge over other builds.



DarkDevil -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/16/2014 3:27:58)

none of those solutions will work , and about 3 it was like that in the era of supp mercs and we get ppl with 70 heal with no points in heal.

supp main problem is in rage and crict.
when staff wanted to make fights longer they nerfed crict so no-supp builds were highly buffed.

to balance supp those 2 must happen so supp will be on par with other stats.

crict chance is to be 4+supp advantage/4.
crict cap is increased to 25%.
remember that now crict is only 30% of armor , so supp builds need a boost , as they only nerfed crict to decrease fight duration.

waiting for rable to rework rage as its also needed that rage relies more on supp.



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/16/2014 8:23:30)

Why wouldn't no. 1 work? I'd like y'all to point out the flaws.



DarkDevil -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/16/2014 8:49:18)

1. will OP support builds , tech mages and cybers and maybe mercs to be acurate.
imagine a cyber or a tech mage with 100 supp using malf then gun and aux , bloody OPed.

2. has no reason since cores are usually on primary so it won't make sense , also cores are fixed amount and shouldn't scale.

3. remember late gamma ?

4. not sure about this one , but offensive builds don't require alot of energy so it won't be effective as it will only nerf defensive builds which we don't want happenning.



Trollok!!! -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/16/2014 8:57:13)

I think scaling with support on heal would be fine if they made it scale like Assimilation. You'd think scaling Assimilation with strength would make strength abuse more potent but it provides simply a small boost.



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/19/2014 19:03:38)

New idea: the effects of rage increase with the amount of support you have over your opponent and theirs decrease if you have more support than them.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/20/2014 20:12:38)

What I once suggested is that crit defense ignoring/boosted damage and rage defenses ignoring increase with the more support you have.

Some, but not all cores should scale with support. Maybe make cores like energy shot and energy storm scale with support at a much faster rate than they do now because they're literally useless.



Pemberton -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/20/2014 23:44:00)

The game shouldn't be the less support you have the higher chance of winning. Support abuse builds are predictable and easy to deal with
so I never saw the reason behind the multiple nerfs to support.



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/22/2014 3:51:08)

Another thing is that a deflection or block is much better than a critical. Also, primary/gun damage is far more useful then auxiliary.Stun is a tiny advantage. Support is this jack of all trades stat that may or may not help you in battle that currently has more marginal costs than benefits as investing in another stat.



Remorse -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/22/2014 5:02:40)

Hmm,
I really liked the idea of making support effect the power of rage as well as the frequency.

The problem with rage is that it gives an advantage to STR builds more then any other but if the power also scaled with support then this would not be an issue and should increase variety.




Ranloth -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/22/2014 6:39:07)

I'd actually prefer Rage to work independently of all the stats. Some builds cannot take advantage of the Support stat, in their skilltree, whilst others have too good of a synergy - to abuse a Support build, especially offensively (i.e. Str+Support build which TMs and CHs have).

I've posted this before, in regards to how Rage should work, so I'll leave it here:
quote:

Rage should be independed effect, not relying on Support. It'd solve one build from abusing it. The "Rage pool" would be scaled per level and players should get it at an equal rate, depending on the damage dealt and received BUT there should be a cap to how much Rage Points you can get per turn (solves the problem with glass cannons), yet doesn't favour tanks either, since Rage is against tanks.

Furthermore, Rage should ignore around 33% defences. Why so little? With equal rage, lower Rage pool, you could get it faster thus effect would be minimised and even less in favour of glass cannons. Yes, it's lower than Crits but Criticals are meant to be strong whilst Rage was designed against tanks.



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/24/2014 16:56:39)

^actually if you played recently as a support TM or CH. You would know that many many builds that require support are useless now. That is partially due to the influx of players getting resistence shield/technician. They cannot compare to the high life, high damage out put of strength builds without support. The constant damage out put vs. luck based damage does not even come close to evening out. Even on rage.



Supreme Havox -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/24/2014 21:43:15)

Now way, support has is pretty op as it is, support builds strength support builds, ext. It also contributes so much to the game as it is.



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/24/2014 22:20:50)

Have you played this game recently?
No Legend has a support build. I"ve tried support builds on my TM. Malfunction is absolutely useless when you're opponent has a shield. So you crit with your aux? It is tons more likely that it gets deflected then having a because of the sacrifice of the other stats it takes to make a support build.



DarkDevil -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/25/2014 4:22:23)

the game will remain unbalanced untill they refix cricts.

crict chance was reduced and now they reduced crict effect so supp has 3 reasons that are not what supp is seposed to do.
1. increase supp scaling skills (which aren't that strong)
2. focus 5 can't be made without supp.
3. acts as a requirement for str skills [&:]

otherwise there is no reason to have supp as crict is nerfed and now need to happen more frequently and rage needs to be more reliant on supp.

easy fix , increase crict chance to supp/4 instead of supp/7.



Ranloth -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/25/2014 7:20:05)

@edwardvulture
Oh? My bad then. I'm spending a lot more time on my alts nowdays, and my main fights NPCs to level up, since PvP is just awful.

quote:

easy fix , increase crict chance to supp/4 instead of supp/7

If it was such an easy fix, don't you think it'd have been done already? Rabble isn't going to put in poor band-aids to fix issues with the core mechanics. He's re-working them completely, along with blocks, deflections, and even rage. That means it'll take time, but will be completely revamped to reduce luck and make it more stat-heavy.



DarkDevil -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/25/2014 8:05:32)

it isn't a bandage , its what SHOULD have happened when they reduced crict to 30%.
because it didn't happen , supp is now only for focus 5 , and supp as a stat lost its power and is now a requirement.



Ranloth -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/25/2014 8:09:27)

Lowering the %-chance works on paper, but not in practice, that's the main issue. It should be solved once and for all - this includes the chance to crit, the power of crits, and how it works across the levels, as well as the stat itself (Support). If you lower the chance, what will change? People still get angry when players with very low Dex block, so this would be the same with Crits. Works on paper, yes, but not in practice.

Obvious changes aren't so obvious, or good. You cannot keep changing something, hoping you get it right at some point. The whole system is flawed, hence why Rabble is dealing with it all at once.



DarkDevil -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/25/2014 8:22:10)

i belive the point here isn't about how luck works , its about supp.

unlike few , 99% of community won't be waiting for months for something to happen.

balancing things on paper is the first step to balancing them in game.



Ranloth -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/25/2014 8:26:47)

If balancing on paper works, but not in game, that's not the first step. You're still in the same spot as you were before, except for wasting even more time...

Unlike the 99% community, only few know how to balance the game properly. Majority isn't always right, and the game won't end up crippled, because some people are impatient. Rabble refuses to make band-aid fixes, as seen with Agility already. He's not going to make petty adjustments, when he's already working on revamping the whole mechanism behind it.
Instead of looking short-term, think about long-term. Flawed mechanics in favour of a poor solution and even longer wait, is worse than just waiting less for the whole revamp. Fine example is passives to actives, which was released few months after it was intended (June), for sake of better balancing and more testing.

If we entrust the balance to 99% of the community, who has very little idea on how to balance the game, we'll be going backwards.



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff support...and remove first-turn advantage of support (1/25/2014 8:40:58)

I'm not sure about the"...and remove first turn...." what I really want is support to be a solid stat like the other stats instead of the "once in a blue moon it will help you" (<---exageration)stat. I think the most reasonable way to achieve this is re-working the rage effect because it is somewhat predictable.



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