The Energy Parasite Fix (Full Version)

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edwardvulture -> The Energy Parasite Fix (2/16/2014 20:15:12)

The only flaw I see in using this skill is how the person that it is casted on could just deplete their energy supply. To fix this, the energy drain and energy regen should be consistent or slightly diminishing for all three turns based on the amount of the Opponent's current energy.
Ex.
Opponent Currently has 350 energy and you have max parasite(15% steal, 22.5% regen).
Scenario 1:
+79 energy/-53 energy for all 3 turns the skill is in effect or
Scenario 2:
Turn 1: +79 energy/-53 energy
Turn 2. +68 energy/-45 energy
Turn 3: +57/-38 energy

Also I would suggest the support requirement becomes "improves" VERY SLOWLY with support because all stat requirements are bad-aid fixes.
Also, at least 65% strike damage



Scyze -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/16/2014 20:42:19)

If Energy Parasite follows this rule, then there was no point in making the change two of the Energy draining Skills got. Static Smash and Static Charge now only drain the total amount your opponent has. In the past, it would be the full amount displayed.
quote:

This Friday we will also be pushing out a balance update to address energy stealing skills like Static Smash and Static Grenade. Energy stealing skills will be capped to the target’s current energy, thus obeying the laws of thermodynamics.
[Source]
quote:

Energy stealing skills are now capped to the target’s current energy. This affects Static Smash and Static Grenade.
[Source]

The reason why this change occurred was because the Developers wanted the two Skills to follow the laws of thermodynamics.
If the opponent used up their Energy, and has none remaining, you go against the reasoning to the nerfs two Skills got. Plus this change was said to be a bug fix for some.



edwardvulture -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 1:31:12)

The key word? current. So that could equally apply to just the opponent's energy at the activation of the skill.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 14:03:30)

Well just change the description of energy parasite.

"Removes a % of target's max* energy. Grants caster 150% of a % of target's max energy."

*notice how I changed parasite from gaining the current energy to max energy. Both to fulfill getting around the Laws of Thermodynamics and to give parasite a nice buff.

So even if the opponent had 0 energy, parasite would continue to grant the caster 150% of the % of the targets max energy.




Mother1 -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 14:59:04)

@ dual thrusters

Nope that is overpowering the gain part of this skill.

Here is an example. let's say my max energy is 700 energy. with this change to the drain no matter what the BM would get 1050 energy for the next 3 turns since the gain grants 150% of the opponent's max energy. That right there is not only overpowered but way more energy than a bloodmage could every use, and there is no way any of the drains could counter this.

Not only that but since the gain works off of max energy instead of current I could have 50 energy currently and because my max energy would be 700 a huge amount of energy would be generated out of thin air for the gain part which is also vastly overpowered.

Parasite energy as it is now obey's these laws because it works with current energy. Having it work with max energy would mean it doesn't obey this law because it wouldn't be working with what the opponents always like the other drainers do.



Trollok!!! -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 15:03:54)

^I think you missed this:

quote:

"Removes a % of target's max* energy. Grants caster 150% of a % of target's max energy."


At max, energy parasite takes 15% of energy; so not 1050 energy gain. It'd be 158-ish. But you're right, it would mess up with the draining if the user had say, 50 energy.



lionblades -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 15:07:10)

We could make the gain cap at around 300-400 energy to prevent OP the skill



Dual Thrusters -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 16:58:06)

@mother

You misunderstand
quote:

Grants caster 150% of the % of target's max energy

So if parasite was at level 10 (which is 15% of target's energy), then it would grant the caster 150% of that amount.

Example: Target has 600 energy. 15% of that would be 90. 150% of 90 is 135.


To go around the law, just simply change the description. With my suggestion it will have 2 separate effects. Now it respectively REMOVES energy and GRANTS energy. It does not drain energy, as the others do.

Like Piston Punch for example. If you set all your armor points to resistance, then it will simply REMOVE 50 energy and GRANT 250 energy.




Mother1 -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 17:42:11)

@ dual

that doesn't mean that this still won't overpower this move. Remember piston punch, as well as any of the other energy drainers can't be used when the opponent has no energy. However with your desired change it would make this happen for the energy gain even if the opponent has no energy left since it is working off of what your opponent would start with instead of what they currently have.

That right there is not only overpowered (since this energy drainer/gainer will generate energy even if said opponent has none left) but doesn't obey the laws of thermodynamics.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 17:53:21)

I used Piston Punch as an example because it does give back energy when your opponent has 0 energy. Simply because it's not an energy drainer! It grants and removes energy seperately

quote:

it is working off of what your opponent would start with instead of what they currently have.


Exactly why it follows the law, because it doesn't work off the energy drain.

It's like saying battery backup doesn't follow the rule because it grants energy out of nowhere, and therefore has to be adjusted.




Mother1 -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:11:43)

@ Dual

Battery backup isn't an energy drainer now is it? No it is an energy gainer just like static charge is.

With energy parasite however is an energy drainer/gainer and if you look at all of the energy drainers/gainers they all obey this law. Whatever they drain from the Current energy they get a (Insert X percent here) of what they drain.

Energy parasite as it is now follows this and also obey's this law. This also means that none of these moves work if your opponent has no energy.

However your suggested change would make parasite energy break this law since it

1 wouldn't be working with current energy since it would be working with max
2 would still return energy even if the opponent has nothing to left to drain.

Those two things right there makes the drains not obey the laws of thermodynamics just like when Static grenade used to drain an opponents energy but gave back more than 50% percent of the max amount.

It would be turn energy parasite into an even more OP version of the old static grenade since since this would last for three turns and unlike the other energy drainers/gainers would give energy out of thin air which none of the others energy drainers/gainers do.




Dual Thrusters -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:23:10)

Because those energy drainers give back the amount of energy based on what was drained. My suggestion does not, because it will focus on 2 separate effects. It will no longer be an energy drainer.

And it could easily be balanced by lowering the % gained.

Like I said already, there is already another move that does this: Piston Punch

If you misunderstand what I'm trying to say, I'll translate it a little. I'll classify moves that modify energy into categories.

1. Energy Remover- removes energy
2. Energy Gainer- grants energy
3. Energy Drainer- Removes energy. Grants energy based on the amount removed.

My version of E Parasite will be both 1 and 2. Grants energy out of thin air as any other energy gainer would and destroys energy as any other energy remover would. Again, like Piston Punch.




lionblades -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:23:42)

quote:

With energy parasite however is an energy drainer/gainer...

Dual is suggesting that Parasite grants and removes energy separately, thus not a energy drainer in a way.
Think of Parasite as this the opponent has 0 energy and if you use Parasite, you gain x energy. However, the opponent does not lose any simply because he has none when Parasite in use.
Same for Battery Backup except it is instant 300ish energy gain.

Also, I see all of you arguing about the Law of Thermodynamics.
Here is the 1st law: Total amount of energy is constant. In other words, energy cannot be created. Think all of EDs skills obey the this law? *Battery Backup?

+1 Dual's idea



Scyze -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:38:30)

quote:

Also, I see all of you arguing about the Law of Thermodynamics.
Here is the 1st law: Total amount of energy is constant. In other words, energy cannot be created. Think all of EDs skills obey the this law? *Battery Backup?
Energy cannot be created out of thin air, and this is something I have thought of bringing up in the past. Somehow the Developers haven't decided to change/alter Battery Backup. Clearly this Skill goes against the reason why two Skills got nerfed. Piston Punch should also get addressed, but you could say both these Skills are reserved Energy.

@lionblades,
quote:

In other words, energy cannot be created.
Going back to the point you made about the law, when you have something over 100%, where do you get the other % from? In this case, you're somehow getting an extra 50%, but I thought Energy couldn't get created.



lionblades -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:44:06)

@Scyze
That's my point. Arguing about Dual's idea of not obeying the Law of Thermodynamics is pointless. I don't see them arguing about all the other cores/skills that do not obey this law. Heck, the Devs use this Law in a incorrect manner. They either don't know the definition, or fail to realize than Battery, Piston Punch, Generator etc. all disobey this Law. An argument that x skill idea can't work because of disobeying the Law of Thermodynamics is null.



Trollok!!! -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:44:07)

Perhaps Tech Mages can manipulate matter such that they can split a single atom from their bodies? That would generate a large amount of energy and the loss of a single atom would hardly hurt them (Thus, removing the need to add some kind of cost to the skill, i.e: HP cost). So Battery Backup could work under the Laws of Thermodynamics since one atom can hold plenty of energy and effectively, create energy from relatively nothing (Though technically the Tech Mage would blow itself and its opponent to bits).



DarkDevil -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:49:43)

quote:

energy is neither created nor destroyed but changes from one form to another.


this role is always presented in physics , there is no way to create energy from nothing.

any form of gaining will have to be in the form of change ie: hp to ep.

separating energy clearly means that the first object loses some of it , and there is no other way.



Mother1 -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:53:31)

@Lionblades

The staff mentioned that moves that drain and gain energy moves at the same time would obey this law, not all moves involving energy generation. Here is the post from the design notes right here

quote:

This Friday we will also be pushing out a balance update to address energy stealing skills like Static Smash and Static Grenade. Energy stealing skills will be capped to the target’s current energy, thus obeying the laws of thermodynamics.


Nowhere does the design notes mention energy gaining moves like battery backup




Trollok!!! -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:55:10)

@DarkDevil: Then they could split the atom in a rock on the battlefield and avoid the HP cost. Anyways, that's besides the point. Using the laws of our universe doesn't work well because it can be used to justify even Battery Backup, the primary reason Tech Mages are running amok. So let's just forget the physics and buff up Energy Parasite (The worst energy manipulator) accordingly. This is an AE game which means magic will justify anything.



Scyze -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:55:48)

I have suggested that Skills requiring no Energy should have HP as the cost.



lionblades -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 18:58:06)

quote:

So let's just forget the physics and buff up Energy Parasite (The worst energy manipulator) accordingly. This is an AE game which means magic will justify anything.

Agreed.



Mother1 -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 19:35:36)

@ Trollok

The reason why TM are so strong is because the staff in their attempt to balance the game put too much stress on energy as well. Remember before they did the add costs to core move and the passive to active change energy wasn't as stressed as it is now and all classes had their advantages and disadvantages. Tech mage's advantage was being the class with the best energy control. However the moment they started made these two changes was the moment the majority of the classes lost their advantages (TLM Tankiness with passive mineral armor, Blood mage's/ BH passive ability to get back energy Etc) where as TM didn't.

The majority of the classes lost what made them work well while feeling the over stress of energy costs, where as TM due to the way it is doesn't feel that pressure as badly.




edwardvulture -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 19:50:17)

^yet you go against my 0 energy idea so strongly.



Xendran -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 20:36:58)

The problem is that every single passive to active conversion made the skills worse EXCEPT the tech mage, which recieved a skill stronger than reroute, which was already the best passive and cannot have its efficiency lowered by dealing damage when they have full ep and fire scythe, which while not OP like deadly aim, is well balanced.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: The Energy Parasite Fix (2/17/2014 21:47:55)

@mother

quote:

energy stealing skills like Static Smash and Static Grenade. Energy stealing skills will be capped to the target’s current energy, thus obeying the laws of thermodynamics.


The Devs addressed energy stealing skills. My version of E Parasite will not be an energy stealing skill.


Edit: sorry, for the late reply, I was watching Robocop for the past hour



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