Skill Requirements (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> Skill Requirements (3/17/2014 9:13:27)

For a full list of Class Skills, refer to: http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Category:Skills

Do all the skills need them, or is it just a messy job being carried over from the passive system onto active, which may result in the requirements (for some of the skills) to be unnecessary?

List of skills with requirements:
  • Adrenaline Rush - improves with Support, Strength requirement which caps at 42.
  • Berzerker - improves with total Primary damage, Dexterity requirement which caps at 37.
  • Bunker Buster - improves with Tech, Dexterity requirement which caps at 34.
  • Double Strike - as above, caps at 33 Dexterity.
  • Energy Parasite - dependant on opponent's current Energy, low initial damage, Support requirement which caps at 42.
  • Field Medic - improves with level, Technology requirement which caps at 43. (missing info in the Wiki, check in-game)
  • Fire Scythe - improves with total Primary damage, unblockable, Support requirement which caps at 42.
  • Fireball - improves with Strength, Dexterity requirement which caps at 33.
  • Frenzy - improves with Strength (for HP return), Support requirement which caps at 37.
  • Hybrid Armor - dependant on your current Dex+Tech, Support requirement which caps at 42.
  • Malfunction - improves with Support, Strength requirement which caps at 37.
  • Mark of Blood - dependant on your overall damage, Technology requirement which caps at 34.
  • Massacre - improves with total Primary damage, ultimate, Support requirement which caps at 42.
  • Maul - improves with skill's level, Technology requirement which caps at 37.
  • Mineral Armor - dependant on your current Dex, Dexterity requirement which caps at 43.
  • Overload - improves with Dex, Technology requirement which caps at 34.
  • Plasma Armor - dependant on your current Tech, Technology requirement which caps at 43.
  • Plasma Bolt - improves with Tech, Strength requirement which caps at 33.
  • Plasma Cannon - improves with Tech, Dexterity requirement which caps at 34.
  • Shadow Arts - improves with skill's level, Support requirement which caps at 42.
  • Smoke Screen - improves with Tech, Support requirement which caps at 33.
  • Static Charge - improves with Strength (for EP return), unblockable + cannot crit nor rage, Technology requirement which caps at 34.
  • Super Charge - improves with Tech, ultimate, Dexterity requirement which caps at 42.
  • Surgical Strike - improves with Tech, ultimate, Dexterity requirement which caps at 42.
  • Venom Strike (BH) - improves with skill's level, Technology requirement which caps at 42.
  • Venom Strike (CH) - improves with skill's level, Technology requirement which caps at 37.

    Do all of the above skills really need it? Why restrict Armors which are just Shields? They already pay a penalty by scaling with your total Dex/Tech, which normal defensive skills use one stat to improve the skill. Are low-requirement skills justified, to prevent easy abuse, such as Plasma Bolt, Fireball, Smoke Screen or Malfunction? Do some skills really need it, when they work similarly to skills with no requirements, such as Shadow Arts? Does Field Medic really need a Tech requirement, when it improves with your level only? Are some of those justified, by having a requirement, to prevent abuse, such as Fire Scythe, Adrenaline Rush and Ultimates? Why is there discrepancy between Venom Strike for BHs and CHs? And lastly, do more skills need a requirement - and if so, which ones and why?

    This is more of an open-discussion balance suggestion. Nothing specific - such as requesting a buff or a nerf - but taking everything into consideration and debating which skills need it and which skills need it lowered/removed.

    DiscussiOn!



    • kosmo -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/17/2014 9:27:10)

    i like the idea of massacre not having a support requirment.



    Remorse -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 6:15:07)

    A lot of requirement should be removed and monitored for variety so long as they increase the viability and range of counters for certain builds that would benefit a lot from this.



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 7:04:57)

    The developers cannot leave skill requirements in the game if they actually believe what they said about agility being a broken bandaid fix, because requirements do the exact same thing agility did.



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 9:50:05)

    They said agility was wrong in how it constricted builds and HP variety. Ex. cut offs were 125, 110, 95. It they scaled the same way incrementally, then it would still be balanced. High Health for the most part, is still overpowered like how strength builds that rage with puny support. Eventually, I predict every skill requirement will come off when they get stats right. Also, they might make weapons with uneven stats and damage. (With regards to a production possibilities curve with the axis's to damage and stats)



    Mother1 -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 9:56:43)

    @ Edwardvulture

    and putting agility back in the game the way I remember you suggesting it will lock players to focus builds to avoid the penalties. So we will have

    1 a still already broken stat system
    2 Agility trying to fix this problem when in reality it is a poorly made band aid fix
    3 People going into focus builds to avoid the agility causing outrage among the masses who don't like focus builds.



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 10:27:04)

    Please.... I have never made a balance suggestion that supports focus builds. When agility was here, people used high life anyways even though they had a penalty for doing so. There were many many builds that incorporated different kinds of stats in the time where there was agility. Stats were almost "perfected' but they screwed it up when they changed HP scaling from 2 to 1. And you have to remember, the way I suggested it would make HP scale by 20's (for the first time) and bring stats back to Delta Progressions. But they DID tinker with the skills a lot, so I am left clueless as to what the real effects of taking the game forward back to Delta progressions and newly modified agility.
    There are really only two options that come to mind for the scaling of health. Diminishments or agility, I would rather have agility.





    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 10:58:45)

    quote:

    t they scaled the same way incrementally, then it would still be balanced.


    No, it would be the epitome of imbalanced. It would mean the stat is overpowered so much that the only way to balance it is to remove the supporting stats.
    Balancing a stat like this just shows that either the initial stat is broken, or the stats that support it are broken. In this case, it's the stats supporting HP which are broken because they offer flat damage mitigation.

    quote:

    Eventually, I predict every skill requirement will come off when they get stats right. Also, they might make weapons with uneven stats and damage.


    This is true. The reason for stat requirements is EXACTLY the same for agility: When stat X is pushed too high it becomes too powerful, so they simply start removing some of that stat when it gets too high.

    When HP gets too high they remove eHP (effective HP. Losing flat def/res at the same time is the same as losing HP)
    When any other stat gets too high, they remove some of it by forcing you to spend the points elsewhere, as well as limiting weapons to 40% stat lean.

    None of this would have to exist if the stats were balanced with each other.


    quote:

    There are really only two options that come to mind for the scaling of health. Diminishments or agility, I would rather have agility.


    You do not understand diminishing returns then. Diminishing returns are only diminishing in flat values, but that is because the percentage benefit from each point must remain the same. Going from 10% Chance to block to 11% chance to block with 2 points of dexterity is a 1.11% increase in overall damage reduction over time, going from 29% to 30% is a 1.45% overall increase in damage reduction over time. To bring it back down to a point where both are increasing your overall defensiveness by 1.11% 2 points of dexterity up from 29% block needs to only grant you 0.77% block, not a full 1%. And thats if you want every 2 points to give a MULTIPLICATIVE 1.11% increase to your defense. If you want them to end up always giving the same percentage of defensiveness from your BASE block and not your current block you would have to diminish it even further.

    Currently we have a system where most stats will stack like this in terms of percentage benefit: (the numbers are random but used as an example) 1 * 1.1 * 1.12*1.14*1.17*1.2*1.24*1.28*1.35

    A diminishing system based on Current stats would look like: 1 * 1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1
    A diminishing system based on Base stats would look like: 1+(0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1)

    Agility is an arbitrary reduction that ONLY improves the balance in a situation where health is already broken. The solution is to fix stats.
    Diminishing returns done properly are not truly diminishing. They are equal.

    A problem right now is that things don't diminish enough, and their diminishing returns were selected completely at random by the developers based on what they thought "felt right" (which is where the vast majority of this games balancing issues come from, the developers seem to do it entirely on feeling and don't incorporate mathematics into it).

    LACK of diminishing returns causes a situation where the only viable builds stack one or two stats.
    Focus is also a system put in place because of poor diminishing returns: When you aren't pushing your stats you are at a disadvantage so they compensate by giving you free damage for having low stats.

    If stats are fixed, focus will have to either becomes its own stat or totally abolished, because stat stacking will no longer provide the advantage that it does, making the free damage and versatility from focus the only way to go.



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:03:28)

    I meant if the agility was applied consistently incrementally.
    Ex. to make a comparison to the old one. Each investment in HP would decrease def and res by 0.6.



    Ranloth -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:05:36)

    Agility shouldn't be necessary to fix the broken stat progression. Why need Agility if the stat progression has been fixed? Agility was used to temporarily patch up the stat progression, but not to be two separate features. If stat progression gets fixed once and for all, Agility won't be necessary, under any form.



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:12:57)

    Heavily updated my previous post, it contains some good information.



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:16:00)

    Energy and Health are majorly different than every other stat they shouldn't get the same treatment. I don't think broken stats (dex/tech/str/sup) was the reason for agility. Provide me an example?
    I thought it was because high HP has been historically overpowered.

    I think you're looking at balance mathematically, while I'm looking at economically.



    Ranloth -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:19:35)

    HP and EP are just like other base 4 stats. HP got nerfed during Omega, and Str/Support received an indirect buff. Then the defensive era with Dex/Tech builds being way too good + Tech was brought down to Dex, in terms of Res boost (nerf).

    They should be treated equally. HP and EP are two the same stats, and only the latter is used for skills. But if more skills get HP cost (like BloodShield), the ratio will be the same, in terms of HP:EP ratio.
    Broken stats was the reason for Agility. This includes all 6 stats. High HP was stopped by Agility, base 4 stats have diminishing returns instead, and both together make an awful combination of broken stats as a whole.



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:20:48)

    HP has been overpowered, but the way tech and dex support it is even worse. Flat damage reduction causes all kinds of problems, ESPECIALLY with the way epicduel places damage multipliers before them.

    Here's the best example: Lower levelled players vs higher level with more HP.

    If you have enough def to reduce their damage to 30, your HP stacking is going to be king, but this is only possible because the reduction is flat. If def and res were percentage based, there would not be this breakpoint where def and res become useless because you cannot reduce damage any further.

    Not only that, but rage wouldn't be necessary either because tanks wouldn't be reducing ridiculous flat numbers off of your hits.
    Also, strength stacking becomes much more balanced because you are always taking off the same percentage of the hit, rather than your defence and resist getting less effective the higher your opponent stacks their offense. Right now It's just a system that RELIES on stacking stats.
    You stacked your defence? Well its gonna be useless if somebody stacked their strength even higher because they can reduce the percentage of damage you absorb, and you sacrificed HP for that defense.



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:21:33)

    ^add support in your example because this would not be the same game if the support stat didn't exist.

    Of course all the stats are inter-connected. But wasn't high health in itself overpowered?



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:25:06)

    Nothing in itself can be overpowered because no stat means anything without the others existing.
    And no, HP was not inherently overpowered, otherwise you could have made a build with nothing but HP. Where the problems come in is when a stat becomes overpowered when it can be supported effectively by other stats without needing those other stats to be high.

    The biggest period of HP being overpowered was when field medic increased with support, and the most popular heal loop build only had 50 support, because that's all you needed in order to support HP to the point of becoming brokenly overpowered when you stacked your HP way way way higher than your support. And def/res being flat meant you could just leave them at your 26 def/res breakpoints and not have to worry about low damage builds still getting through your defences because they are flat.



    Ranloth -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:25:15)

    It was. But then it was nerfed, and it overpowered base 4 stats. Then buffed again, and now HP is an issue at higher level. Broken stat progression as a whole, because each stat is broken at a different level range.



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:28:04)

    Another thing to note is that focus does not discourage stat stacking, it is in itself stat stacking.
    What do you do with focus? 5 or zero. Same as all the other stats: You stack it high, or you find a way to use it to support your other stats while keeping it low.

    You either go 5 focus and use your bot, or you go no focus and still get support out of it with Armor Annihilator / Necrosis.


    EDIT: The minimum damage system is also another broken mechanic that exists because of flat def/res.

    If the minimum hit was 1, the difference between 1 point of tech or dex could take you down from taking 2 damage to 1 damage which is cutting the damage you take in half.
    It's also what makes field medic so ridiculously useful on targets with shields or hybrid armor.



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:30:13)

    I use 4 focus and a super charge build.



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:32:14)

    You are still stacking robot damage. 4 is the second highest possible focus, and is made effectively 5 because those extra stat points are likely going into your technology.
    My point still stands, focus is not a deterrent to stat stacking, it's just another form of it.

    When was the last time you saw a build that was successful that didn't just stack half of their stats (or fewer) way above the rest? (Remember that there are 7 stats)
    More importantly, is it even possible to make a build that does not stack stats without distributing nearly evenly between every stat INCLUDING HP and EP? You'd maybe have a few points here and there to have some stats slightly higher and some slightly lower but... can you ever make a good build like that? It will always be better if you switch it to a stat stack because of how progressions work in this game.

    If you spread everything out evenly you end up with a focus stack. Also why is focus named the opposite of what it means? You aren't focusing on one stat or focusing your training on one thing... it's an all-around stat that is there to say "Don't worry, if you even out all your other stats we will stack this one for you for free".

    Basically, the one build that does not stack stats is the one build that would be an absolute joke if you saw somebody using it.



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 11:53:47)

    TBH every game needs at least some arbitrary or it does not resonate with the masses, which do not always act rationally.



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 12:44:56)

    No, games do not need arbitrary balancing done.

    "adjective: arbitrary

    1.
    based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."

    Balancing should NEVER be done at random or because "it looks like it might work with these random numbers i chose".



    edwardvulture -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 18:36:44)

    Isn't most of the moves as in their effects on your class revamps arbitrary?



    Xendran -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/18/2014 19:12:16)

    Not only is that off topic, but it's a misuse of the word. You are now talking about EFFECTS (not the balance, the EFFECTS) of a skill that is in a thread that currently has had no impact on the game.

    Not only are they not arbitrary in their selection because they are thematic, but the numbers are also based off of each other and have had their progressions smoothed.
    You also seem to be implying that i consider the class revamp a real fix. Class revamp is designed as a temporary fix that not only has more unique skills, but has ideas that can survive through a full game engine rewrite to have better iterations of them made at a later date.

    It's also an argument that makes no sense. You thinking that my choice of skill effects in a thread is arbitrary has literally nothing at all in any possible way shape or form to do with agility being arbitrary.



    zion -> RE: Skill Requirements (3/19/2014 6:48:49)

    What if management prefers an imbalanced game with OPed stats? Right now the only way to have more power with Varium is the ability to change to the OPed class/build/stat abuse... and, once in a while, an OPed core. Not worrying too much about balance and just shifting it with drastic changes every few months has advantages:
    1 - The devs save time to make new (paid?) content.
    2 - Paying players have an advantage.
    3 - Fewer devs/testers to pay.
    ...get my drift?



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