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SMGS -> RE: Do the devs read the forum threads ? (5/29/2014 17:37:09)
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I understand that this is insanely long, so I'll summarize the points I made:
- The developers read the forum (and if they care about the game they make, they will).
- The issue players have is that they have to take the developers' word for this when they say they read the forum; there is no evidence they do.
- It is still important for developers to participate in 'normal' discussion. Not every thread will be a suggestion thread, so the reasoning around 'their posts may be interpreted as a confirmation that a suggestion will go into the game' doesn't really apply.
Regarding Forum Rules:
- The basic rules are fairly straightforward; there should be no reason NOT to follow them. Many players have had poor experiences with forum staff, and it is likely that they need to be the ones to review the posts they've made.
- I personally find the 'extra' rules in the forums to be where the confusion lies. Many players get their posts deleted because for a small, tiny, specific rule that applies to that certain forum only.
- The Balance Forum is an example of this. The six main class threads + the fact that you can still create threads can create confusion for some players.
Regarding the Faction Forums:
- The Faction Forums have not taken off since they've existed in the AEF.
- The 'Guide Forum' structure (which requires thread approval manually) does not really, in my opinion, have much of a place in a Faction forum. Factions should be allowed to freely advertise their faction the way they want to.
- 'Clan Councils' (AKA Alliances) should not be defined by what the forum rules state (since they really have minimal to do with it). They should be defined by how the community wishes to treat these groups. There are some... bizarre rules around this topic, a few pointed out below.
- The Faction Forums are better placed under the EpicDuel section, since this is the area that is linked by the website. The Faction forums are EpicDuel related, thus they should fall under the EpicDuel category of forums.
Regarding the Forum's Organization:
- Overly organized system has caused many players frustration because their posts are constantly deleted. This was seen during the Infernal Infiltration War, mainly.
- The (Dis)Accomplishments thread is a more recent example of this. There should be more constructive discussion going on in here (example near the end of the post) rather than just a wall of accomplishments.
- A relaxed and more slightly off-topic discussion should be allowed. This thread is an example of something that has been slightly derailed from a question about developer interaction in the forums to the discussion about forum rules and why they exist. Excellent discussion comes out of topics that are slightly off-topic to the original, as seen here.
I find this thread interesting in more ways than one. It's timely that this thread comes up since there was really some discussion about this elsewhere just recently.
For the original topic, I find one main thing to say about it. The developers read the forums. I think there's really not much to be said about that fact. What needs to be said here, though, is the need to acknowledge their presence. Currently, we only have faith that this is true because they tell us, but there is no evidence that they actually do as they say. This is an area that they have fallen short in as of late. There was a point regarding the fact that staff replies carry more weight compared to player replies. This leads to many misinterpretations regarding suggestions. I personally would not mind the developers intentionally avoiding the suggestion forums (in terms of posting, not reading) for this reason. What I'd like to see from developer interaction is participation in this forum section, the general discussion. A one or two line post stating what they enjoy about the new release in the Design Notes thread, I think, will make a lot of players happy.
In terms of people being discouraged from posting and the forum's rules, there's probably a couple of things to be said here. I don't necessarily think the forum's rules are strict as they are confusing. The main rules pointed out by Dual Thrusters is fairly straightforward. No flaming, no trolling, no inappropriate language. I think (and I don't want to speak for anyone else here) that players become confused as they come to the forums to make their first few posts. The 'new' Balance Forum is an easy example of this.
The Balance Forum was changed some time ago, and I'm not quite clear on the intentions for this. The only post I can go with regarding this is the one made by Therril Oreb a few months ago. It seems to me like the change was made due to multiple topics regarding the same issue, and the fact that many useful discussions were pushed through the second page due to heavy traffic. Now, I think the debate on whether the change was called or uncalled for is for another post, but now I've found myself confused. You say "This is where you can discuss everything balance related to the Mercenary class" in the beginning of the thread, yet several threads above the Official Mercenary Balance Thread, there is a thread called "Mercenary crazy (stupid?) build idea" that has existed since April 26. So, as a person reading this, I'd be confused as to what I should be doing. Should I just be going about posting threads about the Mercenary class in order to gain more visibility because a thread that has existed for a month has had nothing done to it? Or should I be following the "rule" (it's not exactly in the Rule thread, hence the quotations) and only posting in the relevant thread?
The Faction Forums are something that has major room for improvement still, in my opinion. We're nearing two years since the structural changes to this forum began. The Clans (referring to the AQ Paxia, MQ Houses, AQW / DF Guilds, ED Factions when I say this) forum ended up with it's own category, and expanded to have sort of a Guides forum structure within it, where threads had to be approved. When people are linked to the EpicDuel forums from the website, they are led to this page. That page completely skips over the fact that the faction forums do exist, and I think that has led people to skip over, or bother looking for, this section. They assume every single EpicDuel-related forum is presented to them when they are linked to that page, and I doubt many EpicDuel players leave this section. There have been 37 threads, 10 approved, in the EpicDuel Faction forums in the last 2 years (possibly longer since old threads were kept). That's a staggeringly low number and I seriously think there needs to be a re-evaluation as to whether or not these changes have made much impact, if at all, to the activity.
There should definitely be a thread open for people who wish to look for a faction specifically (there was actually a whole forum dedicated to this in the old forums, if anyone remembers). The purpose would be the reverse of what the current structure is serving (clans advertise, players find and request to join). The thread would be there for players to state who they are (Lvl 40 Mercenary, 10000 wins, etc.) and an officer or the leader of the faction would contact them. This was definitely a much used are in the forum in the past.
The current structure of the forums as a whole is also a bit of added trouble for those advertising their faction. I don't really believe in the 'your faction needs to be accepted' concept. I feel that the structure was literally migrated from a guides forum. The problem here is, it isn't a guides forum. Factions should freely be allowed to advertise their faction the way they'd like to. The minimum a thread should have is really the name of the faction, whether or not members are being accepted and some evidence that the faction is actually in existence. If a leader is truly serious about their faction, they will go into more detail and attract the reader's attention. If not, the community will respond by ignoring the thread and allowing it to fall into the abyss.
I don't enjoy the fact that the 'Clan Council' (they were unofficially referred to as alliances by some players here) restrictions are defined by the forum rules. They should really be defined by what the community defines it as. Why is the forum the authority to say your clan is only allowed to be in one council at one time? Why is it that there are so many restrictions to the council, yet they are not even allowed to have their own recruitment/information thread posted up? And why are you not allowed to advertise your clan council in your signature?
Finally, I think this is a sentiment that a lot of EpicDuel players feel about the forums. Many people want the faction forums to be more visible, doing so by placing it under the EpicDuel category, the category that is linked in the EpicDuel website.
I think the community as a whole has had is the extreme organization and limitation in certain threads. The Infernal Infiltration War Discussion was a good example. It was one thread + the design notes for all the discussion of this humongous event. Many may not remember that, so a better example of this tight limitation is the (Dis)accomplishments thread (ironically, posted by me). Currently, it's just a wall of accomplishments by players. I don't necessarily think that posting your accomplishments is the most constructive thing, by any means. What I think should be happening with a thread such as this is something such as:
Post 1: ACC: Beat Titan.
Post 2: Gratz! Any tips to beat him? I've died over 10 times!
Post 3: I would take away his energy first, then damage him.
(I am not responsible for any deaths caused by taking this poor advice)
I think the slight informality of a thread such as that allows for more constructive discussion amongst players. I've seen some good discussion come out of something that was slightly off-topic in the past. This thread is a good example of that, I think. We began with the question of whether or not the developers read the threads here, and now we've got Mel giving some insight as to the intention of the rules of this forum. And I appreciate that this discussion is being left open (and I hope, continue to be left open) for players, staff and maybe developers to discuss. I apologize in advance if any of my viewpoints cross the line (especially the Faction Forums) in any manner.
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