What is Balance (Full Version)

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Cyber Dream -> What is Balance (7/6/2014 20:39:37)

What exactly is "balance" to you? The term "Balance" seems to be thrown around by people to make them seem like what they say makes sense. (No insult intended) One thing I noticed is that everyone has their own definition of "Balance". "Balance" in Pvp means different things to different people.

What is Balance in EpicDuel to you?
Can it really be achieved?
Is balance about everyone being equal?

"Balance" has been used to much to describe other issues or back a cliam against something unrelated.
  • Player A can do this, therefore the game isn't "Balanced"
  • Player B can acheive this, therefore the game isn't "Balanced"
  • I can do A,B, and C, but player A can do B, therefore the game isn't balanced.
  • I didn't understand A and Player B made use of his/her knowledge around it therefore it isn't "Balanced"

    Pvp games aren't always balanced, which means you will have encounters with other players causing you to have ups and downs. One experience does not speak for all of one thing. "As no complaints are ever met on balance when the balance is met in your favor"

    Please discuss your thoughts on what balance is to you, and how to obtain it so we can maybe move forward in making ED a better game/community.

    (Big thanks to Darka for help with this post)



    • Noobatron x3000 -> RE: What is Balance (7/6/2014 20:59:35)

    Balance to me is , Giving every build a equal chance in the battle field

    I.E

    Legend ranks aren't balanced until they can only face people up to 20 legend ranks below them (5 levels)

    A build isn't balanced if a reliable counter cant be made. Strengh hp dex cough cough (Dex casters can counter this build but its not reliable as you rely on blocks) The only build that can reliably counter the strength builds other then making the same build is when u get your legend ranks high enough to become even more OP then the strength builds.

    Weapons aren't balanced if they have a insanely OP core with a extreme credit price making it hard to get for most shifting the balance of power to a select few.

    In short the best answer to your question is balance is easy really if you look at epic duel as a example of what not to do you find balance. Hope this helps




    _LordOfTheLocusts_ -> RE: What is Balance (7/6/2014 21:20:06)

    ^Oh creating balance is easy? Why don't you share with us your infinite wisdom and show the devs exactly what must be done?



    Mother1 -> RE: What is Balance (7/6/2014 21:27:55)

    @ _LordOfTheLocusts_

    The topic is about what is balance to that person. What Noobatron explained was what is balance to him/her. It being achievable however is another thing.

    Personally my version of balance would all builds would have variable counters and one build couldn't dominate them all. In other words If I have a build it has a weakness that some builds can get at and visa versa.

    However, with the way it is now and the way people complain about how their builds are weak against X when it should be like that (Meaning every build/class as some sort of weakness as well as strength) and them wanting it removed so they can just dominate every build with their own (Which is actually being overpowered) Balance will never be achieved at least my version of balance anyways.



    lionblades -> RE: What is Balance (7/6/2014 21:28:43)

    Balance will be decent when there is a lot of build variety in this game. Out of all the PvP games I have played, I think ED is the hardest game to fully balance. The best PvP games I have played/still play are in real time so even if I fight a person with the same build, it is based on skill like who can hit certain combos/counter more quickly and use the right skills at right time. On the other hand, ED is turn based and has a bad stat system imo. Diminishing returns, support, HP all are different in several level ranges and ED will be hard to balance without doing a complete transformation. Add-ons to a broken base like Legendary Ranks do not help either.



    Dual Thrusters -> RE: What is Balance (7/6/2014 21:33:18)

    For me it is quite simple: all skills in the game are effective.



    _LordOfTheLocusts_ -> RE: What is Balance (7/6/2014 21:36:17)

    @Mother1

    I was replying to his "balance is easy really" commment. Not his opinion of what balance is. I just get rather annoyed when I see people comment on here acting as if they know everything.




    Noobatron x3000 -> RE: What is Balance (7/6/2014 22:37:38)

    *facepalm* Answering the question to what balance is , Is easy in ED's case , 'Do everything differently like the exact opposite and you couldn't get balance any worse then ED has. Not balance is easy ,The question is easy to answer.



    Pemberton -> RE: What is Balance (7/7/2014 0:12:52)

    Play epicduel, that is imbalance. Opposite of that is balance.



    uria9 -> RE: What is Balance (7/10/2014 18:07:30)

    Pvp as a concept in games are never balanced in general in the video game industry. How i see it, this game need more pve content to give it more variety. Fighting games always have op characters, shooters always have op guns, strategy games always have high win strategies. When it comes down to players fighting each other, there's no balance anywhere.



    Drianx -> RE: What is Balance (7/11/2014 2:07:01)

    quote:

    Pvp as a concept in games are never balanced in general in the video game industry. How i see it, this game need more pve content to give it more variety. Fighting games always have op characters, shooters always have op guns, strategy games always have high win strategies. When it comes down to players fighting each other, there's no balance anywhere.

    +1
    Absolutely agreed.



    Remorse -> RE: What is Balance (7/11/2014 11:06:03)

    Balance to me in a game like this,


    Is when classes/skills are unique enough to be un-comparable to another, no one skill should be clearly better or worse, it should be different and chosen by the preference of the user.



    I think that a statement like, Class "A" can do this, is fine so long as, Class "B" however can do a different thing, exists.



    Balance through variety and un-comparability is what I think ED should aim for.

    And it's also why I think balance is very poor at the moment because variety and creativity has shrunken dramatically over the years.


    Epic duel, should be aimed on a balance concept called "perfect imbalance" here is a video explaining it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w




    Basically what it's saying is, we definitely should not be trying to match power/ effect of skill for each class, why? because battles will solely become down to luck with very very few strategies and low variety.

    We should be ensuring that classes have enough variety and strategies have enough variety to ensure that there are sufficient counters for each style and so that no style is comparably better or worse then another and instead come down to preference of the player.


    A big problem with ED, Is you cannot compete with the meta game...

    What should be happening is obvious counters should be working against obvious strong strategies but they are simply not.


    For example, Intimidate should be a strong counter to STR so much so that it could influence the meta of strength builds but it is not..

    Counter variety is neither big enough or strong enough to allow for fun variety.



    ND Mallet -> RE: What is Balance (7/11/2014 18:38:35)

    Balance is a tricky thing to pin down. I see some people saying that doing the opposite of what ED has done so far would leave the game balanced. But I don't think we'd have a GD anymore if that happened, just a bunch of threads about how stupid the original Supercharge is and how it one shots everyone. And if not that, then we'd have heal loop TMs or TLMs. Agility would still exist, we wouldn't have focus or bots, strength builds would be running around like crazy. Point of the matter is, balance is tricky and fixing one problem only lets another rise up. But we as humans are prone to notice all the negatives in our life and ignore the positives. We generally take for granted all the nerfs and buffs that balance the game and then cry foul when a nerf or buff does too much or too little.

    But to answer the question. I honestly cannot define what I see as balance because my vision has changed too much over the years and is too complex. Simply put, everything should be nothing and nothing should be everything. All skills and classes should be equal. It should be up entirely to the man behind the build to clench a victory. Yes, even with luck.



    Remorse -> RE: What is Balance (7/11/2014 18:51:45)

    ^ The problem I think is that we focus on trying to make classes equal...



    I think we should focus on the opposite and make them different.



    The biggest problem with balance I think, is not the differences of power (these problems can be addressed much more obviously), I think it is the ineffectiveness for counter-play. ( Instead of nerfing in some cases it may be better to just increase the counter play options!)


    Balance should be self correcting with many many! valid and creative counter builds for all strong strategies.


    It should be peoples brains that win battles with a small influence of luck.



    Balance can never be perfect (for this game), I agree, but to reach an acceptable standard it should at least be self contained by counter strategies.


    It happens sometimes in ED were direct counters to strong builds also become viable for the meta, but in these cases these counters lack strength and viability against anything else which should not be the case.



    Mother1 -> RE: What is Balance (7/11/2014 18:55:35)

    @ Remorse

    I can agree with you on that one.

    Everyone was wanting what another class had and because of it many things we could do in the past is now pointless. Such as draining someone's energy to stop them because now they can do it right back to you.

    this is just one example of this.

    I miss the old days when each class had something they were good at as well as set them apart. We have that now with TM but most of the others lost what they could do, and now we have as some people trying to make TM like everyone other class because they think it is fair when in reality we should be doing the opposite which is making the class different again and not having them have the same skills outside of strike and field medic.



    Remorse -> RE: What is Balance (7/11/2014 19:01:35)

    ^ Agreed,

    A big mistake I think was trying to make all classes be able to do everything another class can with skills.



    What this does not only ruins variety, but makes it MUCH more obvious to point out unfair differences between classes.


    And then people complain about everyone complaining...


    Maybe if everything wasn't so dam similar we wouldn't have such obvious power differences.


    Like I mentioned before things need to be un-compareabale, having static grenade, basically a superior in almost ever way version of EMP is just unacceptable, for example.


    And thats on a small scale, we shouldn't be able to go, "blood mages energy drain is too weak", maybe blood mages shouldn't have one at all, Im not saying that this is the solution I'm saying that they have put themselves in a position where everything must be the same and it is ruining the game.



    Pemberton -> RE: What is Balance (7/13/2014 5:46:00)

    PLEASE delete all the class and make new classes.



    Silver Sky Magician -> RE: What is Balance (7/13/2014 6:23:16)

    ^

    I agree. There should be a new class called the 'Unthinking Forumite', with each of its skills rewriting the game's source code with every use.



    Noobatron x3000 -> RE: What is Balance (7/13/2014 13:01:51)

    @ ND mallet

    um after level 36 particularly when legend ranks come in extreme strength builds are everywhere................. strength hp abuse is the only build you see at the end game with the odd focus build (target practice) and the odd dex caster (free kill unless he wins the dice roll blocking) Balance is obviously broken with strength and hp yet nothing is done.



    kira of emerald -> RE: What is Balance (7/21/2014 12:06:50)

    Where is the balance when you always face players higher lvls, like now i just reached lvl 40 so rank 1 and always have to face 2 lvls 40 ranked 20 and over, and i'm always with a lvl 36-38, tell me what is fair in it? ED lost a lot of players when it changed to Omega, it's gona lose even more if there's no balance in the team sélections!!!



    Grixus Faldor -> RE: What is Balance (7/21/2014 18:29:08)

    Just a reminder to everyone that Constructive Criticism is not optional. Please read the rules regarding Constructive Criticism, quoted below, before posting feedback of any sort. Thank you.

    quote:

    Constructive Criticism

  • What is it?
    Constructive criticism is being able to process and offer your own thoughts and opinions in order to give courteous and friendly feedback. This is done by explaining what you like and dislike, while at the same time providing feedback that is useful. This is what separates constructive feedback from ranting/complaining and flaming.

  • Does it help? How?
    Yes! Constructive criticism helps because not only are you giving feedback about what you don't like about a quest/event, but you're also giving feedback about what you DID like in the quest. Feedback could include on such topics as statistics, more dialogue, more explanatory cutscenes, more fights - everything that quests or events would normally include. This gives the game staff a better idea on future improvements.

  • Example of Constructive Criticism:
    "I didn't partularly like this war because it felt too empty. To have made it better, I think the staff could have had a 50% cutscene to unlock rather than just a shop to progress the storyline. As it was, I personally was a little dissapointed that this war felt more rushed than previous wars, however I do understand that the staff had a lot on their plate when making this release.
    That said, I greatly enjoyed the boss fight, the animations and art fit perfectly with the song that was playing in the background. So while not one of the best wars DF have done, I still enjoyed it. Thank you, DF staff!"

  • Example of Unconstructive Criticism:
    "I didn't like this war at all. What were the staff thinking? The items in the shop were ugly, overpriced and were bugged!! No cutscene? That was never done before and it is not how it should be done ever. Seriously, doesn't the staff ever listen to us?! The boss fight was too hard and took forever to beat :( And there was no sound. I dont think the staff even care anymore. Best war ever /sarcasm I hate this game D:<!"
    •



    Pemberton -> RE: What is Balance (7/22/2014 0:10:43)

    Here is a simple tip for balance. If everyone is using only Str-HP build at lvl 40s then balance update is needed IMMEDIATELY (not 3-6 months later)



    kosmo -> RE: What is Balance (7/22/2014 3:46:45)

    The problem with balance is class changing and build copying.The most overpowered builds are still to be discovered from the majority of players, some of these builds are very overpowered but if people dont all swich to that build, it wont be a problem.
    What people doesn t understand is that an overused build won t work as good. The easiest way to beat all your opponents is to focus on skills and cores that evrybody uses, and counter them with unusual ones: for example if evryone is using piston pounch core, using generator to get back hp will be a great counter, if evryone had generator, than piston would be alot more useful for it s propouse. If people abuse dex, use unblockables and "anti-luck cores", if evryone goes for 5 focus use strenght, if evryone has strenght drain their energy, etc..
    Retaining stats and skills and wepon sats shuld be totally free to encourage this thinking.
    The cost of class changing and ranks must stay high in credits.
    Even for those who are low level and have to face high ranked 40s there s a way to win good (tank 5focus/dex abuse merc and tank 5 focus high tech bm, both with frost shard and abyss bot; or just farm npcs with cyber hunter).

    With this logic evryone could use his own builds and strategies, there would be more variety and no more balance problems.



    kaierti -> RE: What is Balance (7/22/2014 5:39:58)

    i dont now why but i counted and 21 times blocked yerterday. enemy had 4% armor core and i dont know just where comes from blocks. rages are balanced but please pay attention blocks. there are so many. i have more defense than enemy and its again blocking



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