Poison Suggestion (Full Version)

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AQWorldsFarmer -> Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 4:30:42)

Poison is way too powerful as is, it does constant damage no matter what stats you have. That means a mega strength can do an extra 130 damage per turn.

As a way to both nerf this combo and buff focus, I say we have focus improve with focus levels. The main problem with focus is that is has multiple damage sources (Tech, strength, ect).
So focus can't do as much damage per turn as a strength build because strength relies on ONLY strength and can be used every turn. Giving Focus builds the advantage of poison will help counteract the disadvantage of less damage per attack.

Or if your not for improving poison with focus, maybe poison could have a focus requirement. Such as max poison requiring lvl 4 focus.



Remorse -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 6:00:40)

How about they just create more counter options for poison builds,

Such as a robot/armor core that can remove any non-stat based negative debuff (poison/hatch-ling etc.)


Focus does not need to be buffed, STR may need to be lowered in power however.


If you merely buff focus to compete with STR that leaves two builds option for ED.... FUN! (sarcasm)


Restriction are also harmful and non-permant band aid fixes in most instances, they should be giving people the tools to defeat these things not making them so weak it's useless and then the next uncouterable effortless build comes along.


I think it would be better if poison was one of those things that was good against countering low HP tanks but also at the same time was easily countered itself,

I am currently glad field medic can counter poison effectively but as you can tell clearly it is not enough on it's own.


In saying this though they shouldn't make poison so easy to counter it's pointless to use, they just need to make it be focused around effective timing of the players,


It should be the person who can time correctly when to use poison so it is less likely to be countered, or it should be the person that saves counters for the chance they may poison them making sure the opponent doesn't get an opportunity in which they can catch them out and posion without being able to counter it straight away.

When this game becomes more about smarts of the players again, is the day the game becomes enjoyable for many (me at least xD)



Ranloth -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 6:15:23)

Poison to be based off Primary damage (works better at lower level too), Generator being a partial counter (i.e. removing a turn worth of Poison), matching cooldowns with other healing sources (to prevent looping just after heal).

All of these have been suggested in the past. You don't have to nerf things to the point the build disappears and new (supposedly) overpowered appears, but perhaps tweak things to be more fun and - at the same time - less abusable.



AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 6:20:44)

@Remorse

You make a great point, but I still think poison should require some short of non-abusive stat requirement. Otherwise tanks will still be losing to high hp/strength builds.
Considering the classes that have poison and their skill trees, i would say a dex requirement would be a good idea. But this wouldn't be a problem cause most strength builds also have atleast 37 dex.

That is why I think a focus requirement would be a great step to balancing poison.

@Trans

I've already suggested in the past to tweak other skills instead of nerfing the op skill, and I got laughed at for suggesting it because of how much 'work' it would require to buff multiple skills instead of nerfing one.



Ranloth -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 6:35:57)

Buffing instead of nerfing (on a large scale) is a bad idea, yes, because of the amount of work. But it doesn't mean one change forces everything else to change along with it - with Poison, you have: 2 Skills, 1 Bot, and Field Medic to change, so this wouldn't even be that much work in the first place. Even more so when you consider Poison Grenade to be same as Venom Strike (just no requirements), and Bot already working off the total damage it deals, thus leaving the two skills to change. (since Heal already does the job, in form of cleansing)

And since your suggestion targets these skills anyway, it'd be the same thing - just bigger tweaks, not changing every single skill at once.



Mother1 -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 11:00:03)

if you nerf poison for strength you nerf it for non strength builds. Remember many players at lower levels are using poison as a counter to the dex TM's and other tanky builds that would very well at the lower levels. This change will hurt them as well.

You have to see how these changes will affect all levels not just levels at the top.



Xamurai -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 11:19:41)

@Mother1 No matter what level you are the point of this post originally stated that POISON IS TO OP AND HITS CONSTANT DAMAGE NO MATTER HOW MUCH RES OR DEF YOU HAVE.
quote:

Poison is way too powerful as is, it does constant damage no matter what stats you have.

I agree it is completely OP. If used on tanks in compilation with static charge and contstant energy regain, Hardly any tank can withstand poison. And if you used Poison with a focus Ch it would be ALOT more OP then people think. Now mother. One of the main reasons it needs a nerf IS for lower levels. So i dont know why its so bad to get nerfed for lower levels aswell? How many level 15-30 players do you see with over 1000hp? Just about 0% perhaps 1% So it needs a DRASTIC nerf seems the damage does not scale with levels. Therefore for newer players that dont fully understand the game yet, posion is basically a death sentence. So yes... For the sake of lower levels it needs a nerf aswell mother1..



The berserker killer -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 11:33:01)

It is OP but if we keep nerfing things then there will be nothing left. Lets find more counters instead of just straight nerfing man



Mother1 -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 11:40:51)

@ Xamurai

Please don't use new players who don't understand the game as an excuse. It is a very poor excuse to nerf a skill. A tutorial explaining how poison works and how to counter it would be a great way to fix that problem just like the staff did when they made a tutorial which gave new players full gear. Nerf in a skill just because of newbies as I said before is a poor excuse.

Also unless you invest a high amount of skill points into poison you aren't going to get much damage and for that invest the players deserve a skill that give them damage otherwise it will become like shadow arts, Stun grenade and/or Plasma grenade in other words not used.

The main reason people use poison builds at those levels is to counter dex TM especially at the 15-20 range because Dex TM's at those levels is almost unstoppable due to the power output it get and the lack of counters way down at that level. Focus doesn't get too strong until the mid 20's and many other counters to this build are hard pressed. Poison is designed to destroy tanks and low HP builds so it makes sense that it is doing what you are saying it shouldn't.

So in a sense you are complaining it needs a nerf because it is doing what it is suppose to do not a very good argument IMO.




Xamurai -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 11:51:17)

i don't even know what to say.



Variation -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 12:08:35)

Poison skills are completely overpowered at low levels (overpowered against high levels who don't have an additional hp regeneration skill), and that's not because those players are new to the game. The poison DoT effect should scale with level because low level players don't have enough points to have high hp and good defenses. No matter what way you look at it, it's completely dangerous. If you go high hp at low level they will kill you even faster with poison because your defenses are so low (I know this for sure, I've used poison builds at low level). I have a 95% record on an alt of mine that used a poison build. The skill is so dangerous at low levels it's not even funny. They heal, and you can use it two rounds later. They attempt to energy drain you, you can recover it with piston/generator and poison again on the next round. The cooldown on these skills is ridiculous, just like the Botanical Hazards' special was changed to have a 4 turn cooldown so should poison skills, this way it can at least be countered with Field Medic multiple times.

I don't have trouble with most poison builds at high levels because I have Mark of Blood and most of the players that use them have extremely low defenses. Not all classes have access to Mark of Blood so that isn't any justification for poison skills' current balance. Field Medic is the only direct counter to poison skills, but has a 4 turn cooldown so it's very unreliable against poison builds. The best solution to this is, as I said increasing the cooldown on all poison skills to 4 turns.

EDIT: I'm not a fan of skills getting nerfed, but if a skill has more than enough justification to get nerfed then by all means it should. If it doesn't it's just completely disrupting balance and harming game play. Poison skills add an initial 85% unblockable damage plus up to 390 extra damage, and the fact that those skills are so easily spammable really doesn't help with the games current balance. I feel so bad for classes that don't have a hp regeneration skill besides Field Medic because those poison builds can tear them apart so easily it's just jaw dropping.



Xamurai -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 12:35:54)

I totally agree with everything you just said Variation. But just to add a few needed points.

quote:

I feel so bad for classes that don't have a hp regeneration skill besides Field Medic because those poison builds can tear them apart so easily it's just jaw dropping.

That is a great point. + Seems Field medic removes the poison, people are generally forced to use the skill allot earlier then intended. Then with its 4 turn cooldown they are left wide open for another 2 rounds of poison coming out at 260 damage, +Additional damage from other skills. Even generator generally cannot accumulate enough health for them before they have the opportunity to heal again. One good tactic is to have a level 1 heal to instantly remove the poison. But then you do not have a high enough heal to save you when you need it. So all in all poison destroys any build that tries to vary from strength and high HP.

@Mother1 Using new players who don't know how to play the game is a P E R F E C T excuse. We are trying to bring more players to the game so that it does not die. And yet if they constantly get wrecked by builds like that they will get fed up and never open the game again. Not to mention that even for experienced players poison can be devastating. So i personally cannot fathom from where you are getting your delusions about poison being fine the way it is.



Ranloth -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 12:43:15)

Three turn cooldown sounds better, instead of 4 - or current 2. Botanical Hazard has 4 turns, because it's free and can be looped - albeit takes 4 turns for full effect. Venom Strike/Poison Grenade cost EP and take three turns to take full effect. So changing it to 3 turn cooldown would allow the unblockable hit + one turn of Poison, to go through.*

* Since after your opponent heals, they'll have 4 turn cooldown whilst you have 3 - prevents spamming two turns after healing and being left with no counter for next two turns.



Mother1 -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 12:50:04)

@ Xamurai

You mentioned new players and never said "They don't know how to counter poison." which was why I said that was a lousy excuse when a tutorial would just as well explain to them how a move works and what you need to do to counter it.

Also why do you think high HP strength builds use poison in the first place? Answer the 85% damage it gives without the poison. It is common knowledge that most strength builds avoid skills that can't give them good damage output. This was why most didn't bother with energy parasite or poison in the past due to the damage output without the effects being crap. But the moment you add that output to the skill boom we have strength builds abusing it due to the damage being acceptable outside of the effect now.

Also where in my post did I say poison was fine as it was? Please don't put words in my mouth. I said that nerfing the skill would make it a less effective counter to the tank builds used as this level where high strength output isn't possible. In fact why do most use poison in the first place? Answer to get around those Dex tank builds which is what poison is designed to be used for a counter to low HP and tank builds. Nerfing the output for this skill would in turn be an indirect buff to those tank builds that are also causing players as you say it to quit and get fed up.

Increasing the cooldown of the move acceptable seeing as I do agree the cool down is extremely low. Nerfing the damage output outside of the poison also acceptable seeing as it would make strength abusers think twice seeing as most who use this build only use it because the damage penalty outside of the poison wouldn't be to their liking. However nerfing poison itself to the point where it isn't an effective counter to what it is suppose to be a counter for that is where I have an issue.



Xamurai -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 12:57:36)

@Mother1 Wow.. Just wow. YOUR POSTS WERE BASICALLY 100% IN FAVOR OF POISON BEING LEFT AS IS, You didn't even have to say it outright it was so blatantly obvious.

Im sorry mother1 but once again you have completely and utterly missed the point of what is going on.

quote:

You mentioned new players and never said "They don't know how to counter poison." which was why I said that was a lousy excuse when a tutorial would just as well explain to them how a move works and what you need to do to counter it.

I didnt say nor do i think its needs a tutorial, If you hover over the skill anyone can see exactly how to cure it. The fact is it is to OP period. I don't care if it needs a tutorial or not. It wont stop the skill from having the same problem, Spammable, With an energy cost to low and a damage output slightly to high. A tutorial won't balance the skill now will it?

Please can you actually re read every single last post so you can open your eyes as to where you went of topic and started basing your retorts over things you had said that no one else even acknowledged.



Mother1 -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:12:28)

@ Xamurai

I get what OP's problem was originally. I read his post before I made mine. His problem was poison being abused with strength builds at high levels. This problem comes because

1 Poison has a really low cool down outside of the bot of 2 turns meaning it is spammable
2 The 85% damage it gives outside of the poison as opposed to the old 70% with venom strike and the fixed 50 damage with TLM which discouraged strength build from using them originally.

and his suggestion for fixing these two problems were lowering the output that poison does or making it work with focus which doesn't even solve the problems at hand. Maybe I should have been more clear with my thoughts and for that I apologize however, I while I am not saying poison itself is fine I am not in favor of nerfing the output so it doesn't do what it's is suppose to originally due either which as I stated is be a counter to tank builds as well as low HP builds.

If poison being spammable is a problem increase the cooldown as Trans mentioned. If damage output outside of poison is also a problem lower that output to discourage strength builds from seeing it as a source of damage outside of poison. However the changes OP suggested won't fix those two problems. All it would do is make the it less effective for lower levels who can't use focus well.

So once again I apologize for not being clear about my thoughts. While I am not against changing poison I am against it in the way OP suggested.



Remorse -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:13:22)

I really don't think poison is too strong at all.


It was not long ago when everyone thought the poison skills were weak (and they were in the meta back then) just because the meta has changed and new strong things come to light, does not necessarily mean it should be nerfed.



Poison is one of those things where it is something that should be powerful , but to compensate also be hard to pull off, for this to be the case though they need to make more counter-play option rather then just heal, but heal was a great start.

I see no reason why poison should not be strong, having factors all the same is boring, something strong but easy to counter mixes things up makes things exciting and forces people to think and adapt.



Xamurai -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:15:24)

@Mother1 The main problem is that unfortunately some skills do have a massive advantage over others. You do have some points but i think that mine and @Variation's Stand firmer. the main idea is that the initial damage poison does compiled with the spammability and overall DoT it does, it just becomes to OP if you look at it sequentially.

@Remorse I'm not going to bother responding to you because you just took the conversation back to square one by not integrating the arguments already posted. We just covered everything you said.



dfsfbsdfhbsdfsfd -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:21:57)

I agree xamurai they should nerf poision 50% so the max is 75 that is fair



Remorse -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:24:59)

@ Xam,
I read all the points, and they all make assumptions that they didn't create more counters.


I took it back to square one because I want to get people to change how the look at things and how they look at dealing with them.


Nerfing by adding restrictions has had a HUGE destruction on this game, have you seen variety? it is extremely low and boring.



I honestly think they should actually never again add requirement unless it is a temporary fix to put in place long term full solutions to at which time the requirement can be removed.


Requirements are not a good thing, they are only trying to mask an underlying issue that has not been dealt with.


We need to be looking for balance solutions that improve variety and creativity not lower it further.











Xamurai -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:25:09)

@RandomLettersGuy I think that 50% is FAR to drastic. Perhpas the best way to handle this would be to have poison do 120 max damage over 3 turns with a 4 turn cooldown to match the pace at which you can heal. +Have the mana cost set to 310. That would still make poison usable if used correctly. But not just a mindlessly used skill. Btw @RandomLetters its [img][/img]



dfsfbsdfhbsdfsfd -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:27:09)

OK DOES MAX 130 with a 8 turn cool down



Remorse -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:28:01)

@xam

I actually think that is a reasonable solution,


If they only changed the CD to match heals CD (the only counter to poison) then that could technically be fine with me.


However what I would prefer is if they simply added more counters to poison as well as other similar things so that it doesn't necessarily have to be nerfed at all.



Mother1 -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:44:21)

@ Xamurai

Are you saying poison should only do 40 Damage at max over the course of 3 turns and have a 4 turn cooldown or are you saying that the damage output outside of poison should be 120 max? Cause if you are saying the first that is the equal to nerfing poison into the ground especially since it can't even ko a person.




Xamurai -> RE: Poison Suggestion (7/19/2014 13:46:24)

I never EVER said anything about 40. That was the person who posted before me. I was talking about the 2nd one Mother1 :)



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