Counter-based bot suggestions (Full Version)

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Exploding Penguin -> Counter-based bot suggestions (7/22/2014 22:18:24)

Because people tend to be focusing on how to counter FotM builds/strategies, here are some suggestions on new bot specials that will help counter a variety of different build types. I'll only give the special and its description, as well as some possible builds it counters or strategies it could be used in. Balance is in mind when suggesting these, but is not a focus; concept is more important.

Sanguine Strike:
Deals damage equal to a formula based off of the opponent's max health. Deals damage (which is reduced by defense/resistance normally) equal to [(Max health - ((Enemy Level) * 20)], and recovers the user's HP equal to 85% of the damage dealt after calculating defense/resistance. Single use.

Uses-Punishes those who recklessly invest in HP and not much in another stat. The formula is the way it is so that those with a healthy and average or barely above average amount of HP don't get hit ridiculously hard, but those with tons of HP and not much defenses or support can easily be dealt with. Lower-HP tank builds feel almost nothing from this.

Dominance:
Heals a friendly target equal to: [(User's Support - Enemy's Support) * 6] and empowers the next critical hit or rage you land to ignore an additional 15% defense/resistance. Also boosts your rage meter by its max % equal to half of the difference (if positive) of you and your target's support. Single use.

Uses-Those who avoid investing in support at all get punished severely by this. Not only can it heal a decent chunk of health, but it also gives a small rage boost and empowers your next heavy hit to deal even more damage. Support builds would obviously find the most use in this (thank goodness since they're really weak right now due to support being an almost useless stat and most aside from focus builds avoid investing in it at all), but this could also be used by focus builds or any build with a decent amount of support to get a good edge against the opponent.

Overheat:
Deals 75% unblockable bot damage and debuffs the target with "overheat" for 3 turns. Overheat causes any energy your opponent loses to be increased by 25%. This means that when they get hit by EMP grenade (or any other energy stealer) or uses a skill, it costs/drains an additional 25%. Overheat CAN be weakened by assault bot, which would bring the increased energy burning down to a much smaller value (IIRC assault bot nerfs debuffs by 60%, so it would bring the extra consumption down to 10% from 25%). However, if overheat would have prevented skill use due to an increased cost, then an afflicted target can still cast that skill (for example, if I wanted to use level 1 field medic and I had 180 energy while it cost 170 energy, I could use it and would lose 180 energy instead of being prevented from using it). Single use.

Uses-Shuts down caster builds if used with good prediction. In 2v2, with good planning, it can also be used very effectively. The gimmick of not being able to prevent casting at original costs is to prevent it from being used in a cheap way to essentially shut down someone with semi-low energy in their pool. Like hatchling rush, you can use this if you predict your opponent wants to burst you with 2-3 skills in a row to make them burn up all their energy quickly or stall out their skill use.

We already have tons of ways to counter tanks in terms of bots (poison, multiple armor shreds, rage-giving bot, etc...), so I don't think I should suggest any.




DeathGuard -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/22/2014 23:28:33)

Sanguine Strike:
Lets say my robot damage has a base damage of 605-650 and it deals 368 normal damage. My foe has 1000 hp and he is lvl 40.
Assuming the damage dealt is summed to the ecuation of the max health minus the enemy lvl * 20:
368 + [[1000 -((40))*20]]= It would deal 568 damage (since the defense/res is already minus from the base damage of my bot).
The recover would be of 113.6 which would be rounded to 114 hp regained from the attack.

If this idea works as I assumed, it would be too strong so I would suggest some suggestion:
Make the attack of the bot deal 70% of the original base damage reduced with the defense/resistance of the foe plus the bonus of the max health formula. It would still deal a nice damage. Also I would be opposed to the hp regain since it not only deals damage but also has a 2nd effect which none of the current robots has.

Dominance: This would be too hard to code. Calculating too many factors in place and other stats would make the coding a really difficult task, considering that cores takes weeks to be done due to its complex coding.

Overheat:
The special is too strong.
Suggestions:
Make the damage deal 50-65% of base damage and the special to have an additional drain of 13-15%. Most robots have a laidback damage when they use their special e.g. Blood Hawk, Necrosis Abbys Bot, Yeti, etc.
A 25% additional drain is too much. If they use a skill that uses 450 energy (Massacre), the additional drain would be of 113 energy. Energy is something that can help you decide the battle's result so this would change the battle in a drastic way.



Jacobfarrow1 -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/22/2014 23:29:45)

These are all amazing ideas. Supported.

I really like how these are Bot Specials, and not new cores or anything. The skills fit well with the concepts, and seem to be relatively balanced.

EDIT: DeathGuard has some good points, although one is off.
"No other bot does damage with a secondary effect" (Too lazy to quote) - False; Botanical Borg's special not only deals damage, but hits all remaining enemies. Most of the bots you mentioned deal damage with a secondary effect, as well... Unless, you meant an effect that affects the user. I do not believe any current Bot has a Special like that.

"Would be too hard to code" - I slightly disagree; while it would be very annoying and time-consuming, I believe it would be possible to code something like this into the game. I know I could do it with Visual Basic, but Visual Basic does not equal Flash, so my point there may be moot.



Remorse -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 1:03:24)

Supported,

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks the future of this game will be determined by counter-options :)

Great stuff,


Also perhaps was the first robot inspired by the thread I made? http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21758262


I will try and think of some more ideas to add to this list :)



DeathGuard -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 8:41:17)

@Jacob: Exactly, a 2nd effect effect apart from the effect from the special core of the robot. None of the current bots has it. If we keep making newer robots to have more bonus effects, the other robots would have to be buffed or would stay outdated.

And yes, it would be. From what I have been told, cores are one of the hardest things to be coded. I have programmed in Visual Basic as well and other several programs but I can say coding for Flash is totally different plus ED's base code is quite the complex one.



InFlamed Fury -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 10:28:26)

I agree with the 1st suggestion but the other two i feel will just cause some more balance issues.

2nd robot special well; we already have many different ways of healing, no one wants longer battles than what we currently have. There is Mark of Blood, Super Charge, Surgical Strike, Blood Commander, Generator and Heal. Most classes have at least two or more ways of recovering health and a robot to just purely restore health would be counter-productive towards the issues that we currently have. It sounds like a mix between Generator and the Lionhart bot's special: gaining more HP and Rage and gaining the ability to do ignore an extra 15% of your opponents Def/Res will just be to overpowered, not to mention that STR builds can still abuse this special because of the guaranteed extra 15% Def/Res being ignored regardless of their support. They can use it one turn before rage and completely decimate an enemy.

For the 3rd special just think of all of the ways to drain energy from your opponent.
Energy Parasite, Assimilation, Energy shot, Frost Shards, Static Grenade, EMP Grenade, Static Smash, Atom Smash, Energy Storm, Frost Aura (some people have it even though it's only 11% chance to occur) and Piston Punch. Once again every class has at least 1 and at max 4 ways of draining mana (class skill + energy shot + Piston Punch, Primary Core). Having the ability to drain an extra 25% is just unnecessary right now, at least until they fix all of the problems with mana that currently exist. Not to mention that builds that aren't 5 focus will still benefit from it's use and caster builds aren't even used that much anymore so just don't try to fix something that isn't a problem OK?

The 1st idea is the only one sounding good due to the fact that ONLY 5 focus builds can benefit off it, while pretty much every other bot can benefit all build types so i completely agree with the 1st suggestion but the other two are just gonna be OP as hell in the game's current state.



Jacobfarrow1 -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 13:35:47)

@DeathGuard
Alright, I believe you about the Flash coding, as I currently have no knowledge of it whatsoever. Which part do you think would be the hardest to code, the algorithm or the dual effects?

And yeah, that's true about the other Robots needing a buff if this happened, except if the Bot that had Sanguine Strike had like 150-160 Base Damage, so it would be about on-par with IA.

@Topic
I like Sanguine Strike, but the healing seems a bit too strong. Maybe 40-60%?



The berserker killer -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 14:30:14)

I really love these ideas! New content that isn't too OP is always a good thing!

Supported



DeathGuard -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 16:13:09)

@Jacob: Can't really tell you since it would end up being tweaked due to it being too complex and balance theories would have to written down to make sure it isn't too strong.
Depending on the special core, robots have low or high base damage e.g. Pyro fly who has a 150 base damage but has a really good special core since it can really obstruct your opponent's strategy.

To be honest, all of these ideas would have to be tweaked at a certain point for them to be balanced since some of the effects or the bonuses are too strong. Also not supporting the dual effect of bonus damage and health regain. It is either one or the other and I doubt Devs would work out this bot with dual effects due to unbalance.



Jacobfarrow1 -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 16:25:38)

@DeathGuard
The Bonus Damage + Health Regain is kind of like Frenzy (Ignores defenses, health gain), but instead of the defenses being ignored, it's changed a bit so that it uses the Health calculation for parts.
I didn't explain that very well, haha, but I hope you understand the gist of it. Maybe a variation of the Frenzy coding could work for this?



DeathGuard -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 16:36:42)

@Jacob: They are already robots with bonus damage e.g. Infernal Android and it doesn't has a 2nd effect like a hp regain. To be honest, I consider the 2nd effect would give too much of an edge and would outdate most of the current robots instantly if it ever gets in(which I doubt to be honest).
I'm aware of the formula of the max health bonus damage and I provided an example in one of my previous posts. The special damage is already high enough even with a decent hp in your foe's build(900-1000 hp), and lets not mention high hp strength builds that would get hurt badly if hit by it. The regain would just prove to make it too strong and it is one of the things I'm sure Devs would discard from the idea.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 18:38:18)

I didn't quite fully understand your first post concerning sanguine strike, but I'm supposing you think it also includes the bot's damage as well. Sanguine strike is not affected by anything other than the formula I provided, therefore no matter how much focus or tech you have, or even if the bot's base damage was 0, sanguine strike's damage would not be affected.

quote:

Dominance: This would be too hard to code. Calculating too many factors in place and other stats would make the coding a really difficult task, considering that cores takes weeks to be done due to its complex coding.


If this is too complex to code then there's something seriously wrong with the current code.

quote:

And yes, it would be. From what I have been told, cores are one of the hardest things to be coded. I have programmed in Visual Basic as well and other several programs but I can say coding for Flash is totally different plus ED's base code is quite the complex one.


I've heard the flash player code they use is very similar to java and other c-based languages. Supposing the code is organized enough (which it should be since they have tons of debuffs/buff effects and other things like that), then coding a buff given by a bot special should not be hard at all.

quote:

2nd robot special well; we already have many different ways of healing, no one wants longer battles than what we currently have

Unless we currently have 15-20 turn battles on average, then I do want longer battles.

quote:

Overheat:
The special is too strong.
Suggestions:
Make the damage deal 50-65% of base damage and the special to have an additional drain of 13-15%. Most robots have a laidback damage when they use their special e.g. Blood Hawk, Necrosis Abbys Bot, Yeti, etc.
A 25% additional drain is too much. If they use a skill that uses 450 energy (Massacre), the additional drain would be of 113 energy. Energy is something that can help you decide the battle's result so this would change the battle in a drastic way.


Current meta is that you can't afford to rely on high-cost skills, and it'll stay that way until they do something about all the energy drainers. Actually, the one type of build that CAN afford to use high-cost skills is caster.
quote:

Uses-Shuts down caster builds if used with good prediction.


quote:

The 1st idea is the only one sounding good due to the fact that ONLY 5 focus builds can benefit off it, while pretty much every other bot can benefit all build types so i completely agree with the 1st suggestion but the other two are just gonna be OP as hell in the game's current state.

Numerous bots are still useful without focus. Bots are meant to give an additional tactical option to almost anybody, no matter their build. Some scale off of focus, but as far as I'm aware of, ALL of the bots that have a secondary effect (chomp, thorns, swarm, etc....) do not scale off of focus. The damage dealt when applying the effect is, but it's not like the power of the thorns increases if you have more focus compared to having less.



DeathGuard -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 19:39:30)

@Exploding: Just because it is hard to code it, doesn't means there's something wrong with coding. ED base code is complex but that's what it makes it good because they are able to make more complex features due to their extended code. What you learn on high school, or college is to know how to code but each coder has an own way to code something. Titan and Rabblefroth have worked hard on the coding so you can't say there's something wrong with it since it is just an assumption from your part.

The problem is you have heard about coding in other programs but haven't actually tried it so I doubt you would understand the message I want to give you.

You said you want longer battles, but that's a subjective point of view. Most of the player base doesn't wants longer battles so what you said isn't some sort of argument to use since as told before, it is your desire, not the other players' desire.

Do you realize that if TM is affected by that energy drain badly, other classes would be affected far worse? We don't need more energy drain effects, since that is giving many players an edge, specially classes that have a synergy on recovering and stealing energy(TMs specially).



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 20:47:39)

quote:

The problem is you have heard about coding in other programs but haven't actually tried it so I doubt you would understand the message I want to give you.


I've coded in C, C++, Java + Javascript, Visual Basic, and PHP.

quote:

assumption from your part.


It is, but I'm pretty sure almost every coder wants to make their code organized and easy to modify, especially if it's code for a game that's updated constantly.

quote:

each coder has an own way to code something.


This is more like tabbing style, whether or not someone uses camelcase when they name variables, where they declare variables, how they format their loops, etc...

quote:

You said you want longer battles, but that's a subjective point of view. Most of the player base doesn't wants longer battles so what you said isn't some sort of argument to use since as told before, it is your desire, not the other players' desire.


Yes, it is subjective, but I'm almost certain there's a decent chunk of people who also wish for longer fights.

quote:

Do you realize that if TM is affected by that energy drain badly, other classes would be affected far worse? We don't need more energy drain effects, since that is giving many players an edge, specially classes that have a synergy on recovering and stealing energy(TMs specially).

TM as a class is not affected badly by the increased energy drain. Casters are. TM has really trash synergy on recovering and stealing energy. The amount of energy they steal is near pathetic, the amount they gain from assimilation is only a small amount, and battery backup has a whopping 5 turn cooldown. The 80% damage is a bit high (so I'm reducing it to 75% in the OP), but increasing the energy consumption they have by a moderate 25% that cannot actually prevent them from using skills whose base costs would have still been affordable is, from what I see, definitely reasonable.

And to answer your question, no I don't realize, because other classes in general cannot be affected far worse than TM since TM/TLM easily suffers the most from energy drains. Their only chance of actually getting back enough energy to do anything is once in every 6 turns, hence why strength is so popular nowadays, since you get consistent damage and are not energy-dependent, not to mention that energy-recovery skills that scale only scale with strength/level (save for static grenade which gives not too much energy back to the user).




DeathGuard -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/23/2014 22:20:30)

@Exploding: Having some complex arrangement =/= it isn't organized
As mentioned before, complex structures gives you more freedom since you can allocate specific details into different areas rather than stacking them up in the same areas over and over like in a simple structure.

You're forgetting that not only Casters use high lvl cost energy skills.
I'm laughing that you said TM has a trash synergy because currently, it has the best synergy. Not only TM can steal energy but also can recover with skills which no other class is capable of doing due to their restrained variety of skills. We could use the fight against Saeva here, lvl 36 Tech Mages were able to beat him easily due to their constant energy recovering while other classes struggled at lvl 40 with high ranks trying to beat him due to the lack of energy in comparison to TM's energy recovery. BM had the edge due to Energy Parasite but it really doesn't works that well in PvP since people tend to use their energy before it is stolen.
Also, the amount they steal is good enough if they have medium strength and the regain isn't bad either for the amount plus they deal you damage in the process. Battery Backup recovers around 360 energy which none of the others skills can do. This has been mentioned several times, if you don't agree, it is fine but other players would agree with me.
It is your choice to leave it but to be honest, even if it gets picked(which I doubt since it is currently too strong) , it will be changed and I'm telling you from now because you will probably rant about it later.

I really don't know why you can't figure out that the 25% additional drain is too strong. Try to make the math and you will notice that classes like CH that lack energy synergy more than other classes would get the ones hurt the most by this sort of absurd additional bonus.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Counter-based bot suggestions (7/24/2014 13:00:02)

quote:

Having some complex arrangement =/= it isn't organized

If it is hindering the efficiency of adding new content more easily, then there's a much better way of doing it.

quote:

You're forgetting that not only Casters use high lvl cost energy skills.


I think I mentioned before that the meta makes it almost impossible for anyone but battery backup users to be able to use high-cost skills after the first few turns.

quote:

I'm laughing that you said TM has a trash synergy because currently, it has the best synergy. Not only TM can steal energy but also can recover with skills which no other class is capable of doing due to their restrained variety of skills.


Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying....
-BM can steal a decent amount and recover a fairly good amount in the same skill
-Static smash steals a very substantial chunk instantly and recovers a healthy amount
-Static grenade is unblockable and steals a good portion of energy although not recovering too much
-Static charge recovers a decent amount of energy and CHs can take tons off with EMP.

At the moment batter backup is literally just giving half of the classes free energy. With its 5 turn CD, it is amazingly easy to exploit. As soon as someone uses it, just static grenade, static smash, or EMP and all those skill points in battery backup were wasted and instead, in the case of static grenade and smash, end up actually giving your opponent energy while the TM gets almost none. Assimilation's 4 turn CD, sub-average drain, and weak recovery doesn't help too much either. Of course there's still some energy leftover, but it's not nearly enough to use a moderately-invested field medic because most classes can use their energy drains two times before a TM can use battery backup once.

quote:

BM had the edge due to Energy Parasite but it really doesn't works that well in PvP since people tend to use their energy before it is stolen.

You want them to use their energy before it's stolen so that you force them to use skills they don't want to, so that you can eventually push them into a corner later. I think if someone were to try BM focus without this mindset, it would be very difficult to win battles with unless that person was already doing it subconsciously.

I think we should just say that we agree on disagreeing, because I think CH wouldn't be hit hard at all from 25% additional drain since it has lots of really strong skills which don't use that much energy (EMP, low-level malfunction, defense matrix)



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