Jug mode rebalance (Full Version)

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suboto -> Jug mode rebalance (8/29/2014 13:59:54)

I see as a lvl40 player i vs:
31-34
I tested as a lvl13 player entered 2v2 and got matched up against a lvl23
my partner was lvl17
The above details are apart of the issue in the balance and why lower lvl jugs win at a much faster rate

Lvl40: vs 31-34
lvl23: vs 13-17 The scaleing may also allow 12 to fight lvl23
so thats:
lvl40: 9 to 6 lvl range below
lvl23: 11 to 6 lvl range below
So in the details given the range for lower lvl jugs need to be buffed to 9 to 6
or
the range for lvl40 jugs need to be nerfed to 9 to 5 below or even 10 to 5
The progression in energy drains and bunker/cannon are another role in why 40's struggle.
The progression either needs to buff 1 more time at lvl36 on battery/drains or they need to nerf them and then have them progress back to what they are at 36+
i understand 33 vs 40 in jug mode is reasonable given the ranks but 34 isnt reasonable at all its practically a free win for the 2 players.
So this is what balanceing needs to be done.
or the possbilability of a passive 2nd skill tree as mentioned in a suggestion thread.



Nick C -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 13:02:48)

Yea, level 40 jugs do need to fight people a little bit of a lower level. in the 28-33 range.



Mother1 -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 13:37:28)

I don't agree with this due to this would make newer players even bigger punching bags.

Thanks to the imbalance of Juggernaut mode at low levels a spam build can destroy the opponents like a hot knife through butter. Especially if said opponents are inexperienced and/or underequipped.

As it is now a level 20 can battle level 10's level 10's! Fresh players who have no clue what they are doing unless they are experienced players alts and even then they are still underpowered. Now you are saying that the bar show go even lower than that?

This kind of thing would discourage new players from playing 2 vs 2 not encourage it. We need to get new players into the game not chase them off due to unfair match ups especially at that range.



Nick C -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 14:08:19)

@Mother1 Level 20 jugs fighting people at those low levels like 10 does suck, but a level 40 jug shouldn't be fighting people within 5 levels of him. 28-33 would be great for a level 40 jug to fight.

As for lower level jugs, lets say at 20, they should be fighting people around the 12-15 level.

All the Jug levels need to be balanced appropriately for it to be perfectly balanced.



Stonehawk -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 15:35:50)

Juggerauts were made to be boss-like players, not punching bags. I support 2 lvl 28-33 vs lvl 40, or even lower.



Mother1 -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 15:47:27)

@ stonehawk

Incorrect. Juggernaut mode was originally meant to be a harder battle mode for the JUGGERNAUT players who wanted a challenge not for them to be gods. However when the mode was introduced in gamma Varium had huge power and made them as you called it gods which in turn made their opponents especially if they were non varium punching bags.

Now the battle mode is actually what it is suppose to be (at least for the higher levels) and people are crying it is too hard when the whole point of Juggernaut mode was to be a hard battle mode originally?

The problem with the mode is not that it is too hard, but people thanks to the way it was in gamma and delta got the wrong impression of what the mode was supposed to be which is a hard challenging mode. Then there is the issue will all these lower level jugs making punching bags out of unexperienced and/or underequipped players.



Nick C -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 16:24:16)

Jugs shouldn't be boss like players, but it also shouldn't be hard mode. We need to find a range in the middle where Good Jugs can shine and lower level players can still beat a jug with some decent tactics.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 18:24:02)

quote:

Then there is the issue will all these lower level jugs making punching bags out of unexperienced and/or underequipped players.


That's a problem with any mode for low levels.



Mother1 -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 18:39:27)

@ Dual thrusters

Juggernaut mode unlike 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 is suppose to be a challenge mode for the Juggernaut who wants a harder battle. 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 aren't this. So unlike with one vs one and two vs two having a juggernaut pick on a bunch of under equipped players who have no clue how to battle juggernaut, or don't have the builds to stop them isn't a challenge and this as I pointed out discourages newer players from playing the game seeing as they can become juggernaut road kill as early as level 10.

They need to raise the minimum level for Juggernaut from level 20 to level 30 for the juggernaut. May suck for those who brought the card at level 20-29 but at the same time it stops the needless slaughtering of new players who are forced to fight juggernauts for the Juggernauts amusement!

Cause as I pointed out Juggernaut mode unlike 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 is suppose to be a harder battle mode for the juggernaut not easy wins due to low level juggernauts picking fights with underpowered and underequipped players.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 20:06:09)

quote:

They need to raise the minimum level for Juggernaut from level 20 to level 30 for the juggernaut. May suck for those who brought the card at level 20-29 but at the same time it stops the needless slaughtering of new players who are forced to fight juggernauts for the Juggernauts amusement


Makes sense to raise it to 30 for more experienced opponents. Maybe that would be a good time to make the Silver Skull Card sellable.

@OP

Iirc, the Devs said that Juggernaut exclusive cores were being considered.



Stonehawk -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 21:00:34)

quote:

Jugs shouldn't be boss like players, but it also shouldn't be hard mode. We need to find a range in the middle where Good Jugs can shine and lower level players can still beat a jug with some decent tactics.


I agree. It should be a bit harder than 1 vs 1 battles, since we are fighting 2 players. But it should be possible for both the jugg and the team to win, depending on who plays strategically better. Right now, they only need to drain energy and heal and they win without any difficulties.





Nick C -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/3/2014 21:36:28)

To sum it up, Jug at lower levels should be harder, but Jug at higher levels should be easier.



DeltaNoob123456789 -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/5/2014 1:34:48)

I support this scale lvl 28-33 I believe juggernaut should be like not easy and nor hard.



kosmo -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/6/2014 4:38:37)

People keep pointing out that juggs must be difficult, but theres a difference between difficult and impossible.
I really hope I can play this mode again in future, but so far, not even rank 60 can help you.

This is a formula to match levels in jugg mode:

[(oppnent A level + oppnenet B level) - jugger level] : jugger level = x

My math is bad and maybe I missed something, but for someone more able than me it shuld be easy to balance the matchmaking for all levels with a simple formula.

If devs gave us fair juggs alot of players whould have something else to do, expecially for those who hate 2v2 and want to engage a challanging and balanced battle that only depends on your own skills and strategies.This would also bring less pressure to those who constantly have to fight high ranks in 1v1.



Narius -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/14/2014 16:35:34)

I have not played Juggernaut mode yet, so my opinion might not be too valid, but by the sounds of it balancing Juggernaut to be just a little bit easier is a good idea, an idea that I support.



Vextur -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/17/2014 4:35:21)

Why not making the rage bar goes 50% faster for juggernauts



suboto -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/17/2014 7:38:08)

quote:

The progression in energy drains and bunker/cannon are another role in why 40's struggle.


Im currently testing out some things.
Bunker and plasma cannon were two skills that were apart of why jug mode is unbalanced.
Nano Steel try this core with a dex/tech build -8% of critical damage dealt to you.
and put the other item stat points in support. that will help.
The other part is the energy amount that is just to high to be drained
now to test out what can counter this.
Possible counters:
Generator- will help with return of energy with some hp as well
Piston Punch- will help drain opponents energy while returning some energy
Shadow Arts- will reduce the amount of energy thats drained.

quote:

Static Grenade
Lower Drain by 10
Energy drain increases by 1 every 5 Support, up from 4.5
Caster absorbs 50% of Energy drained, up from 35%


This helped with part of the issue of drains on energy being to high.

quote:

I see as a lvl40 player i vs:
31-34


The only thing that i see with this is 31-33 or 30-33 which ever one that would balance better with the population. 34 should not get free wins that is making level40 players punching bags in jug mode.
Either the range changed to 31-33/ 30-33 or just for jug mode level40 get a passive just for jug mode and keep the range 31-34.
possible passives:
5% of all damage dealt to you returns energy
5% of bonus armor protection
5% hp returned of overall damage you do



Well i found solutions to the two out of the 3 problems. now theres just the level range issue.





kosmo -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 5:12:53)

^^Level range is the only problem with juggs.
2v2 and juggernaut will always be less balanced, considering all the possible combinations there will always be something that s op.



Variation -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 14:21:10)

@kosmo: You say the level range is the only "problem," but you provide zero explanation. Making the juggernauts fight even lower levels will absolutely not address the core issue with juggernaut, which is the amount of energy control they have over their opponent. Making the juggernauts fight even lower levels would only be a bandaid fix because the juggernauts aren't losing because their opponents' level is too high. Good juggernauts are only losing in that battle mode because of the energy control their opponents have.

How do you win when you don't even have the energy to heal yourself? Most of the time you're dealing with not one, but two rages in less than five turns. I have a very high ranked alt(rank 50+) and I did try juggernaut to see if it would be doable with a high rank, and just like I thought it was impossible. Two Mercenaries can drain all of your energy before you even get a second turn, and then Frost Shards/Piston Punch anything you get back. Blood Mage(s) can Energy Parasite you and give you no choice but to waste your energy. Cyber Hunters can drain 400+ energy from you in one round. Dexterity tank Tech Mages can heal loop and spam Assimilation/Overload until you're dead. Bounty Hunters can spam Static Grenade and a low level smoke and force you to play defensively. Tactical Mercenaries are generally the only players that don't drain much energy from you, as most of them are using a sword.

The amount of energy control your opponents have over you in juggernaut is extremely ridiculous, and to top it off you have no enhancements and passive skills to cope with it like you did in the past. ConQrR the best juggernaut of alltime did 900-100(juggernaut) in Omega at level 36, and he would be the first person to tell you the problem is energy control. He has the most experience than anyone with this game in juggernaut, and his word is also blatantly obvious if you try playing it on high level characters. The levels you face would have to be lowered drastically for the juggernaut to even stand a chance. Now this issue arises, should they take the lazy way out and drastically lower the levels you face(bandaid fix), or address the real problem with juggernaut which is energy control? I can tell you certainly that drastically lowering the levels you face isn't a good idea for this game. Players are already scared to press the 2v2 button at levels 10 - 20ish, do we really need to make an even larger portion of our player base scared to press the 2v2 button? Both the juggernaut and his opponents must stand a chance to win and drastically lowering the level range would just make the juggernaut a god. Also please note that I'm saying drastically because a slight level change would still end up with the juggernaut being slaughtered. This is why the amount of energy control the opponents have over their juggernaut must be dealt with directly. That is the core problem with high level juggernaut, like I've stated.



kosmo -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 15:20:16)

i will explain u why the lvl range is a problem.
the opponents get exponentially stronger than the jugger trought the lvls, why? because they are 2, for each stat point the jugger gets from lvling up, his opponents get 2(in total),
so basically the gap % decrases while the lvl number incrases.
this is the reason why a lvl 20 overkills two lvl13, but a lvl 40 cant touch two lvl33.

also if energy drains where the problem, this issue would have came out at lower lvls aswell.



Mother1 -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 15:48:37)

@ Kosmo

Most lower levels don't use energy drainers or can't use them effectively due to the lack of skill points. When I use my alts and I get pulled into a juggernaut match Most people don't even invest in energy drainers or have them at low levels.

Most of them don't even have cores at those levels for energy drainers unless they are using Varium or are experienced players alts.

Not only this as I pointed out those players are being sent to the slaughter majority of the time which as Variation pointed out is making a lot of them afraid to push the 2 vs 2 button or making them quit.

At higher levels you have more points to invest with energy drainers as well as the credits to get cores.

With NPC giving EXP again those low level players can't even get credits to power themselves up without leveling up if they wanted to have cores at lower levels anymore either.



Variation -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 15:49:21)

@kosmo: No it wouldn't come out at lower levels because lower levels don't have the necessary skill points to be efficient in energy control (unless they're a Bounty Hunter not even Cyber Hunter because of the lack of energy). Bounty Hunter is the only class that can achieve decent energy control at low levels and that is only because Static Grenade is a free costing tier 2 skill.

When I played juggernaut on my level 40 rank 50+ alt, I didn't have trouble because of the opponents stats/damages. I only had trouble because I could only ever heal early in the match. I could never heal when I was in desperate need of it because of energy manipulating skills. Like I said a slight level change to the juggernaut mode would do nothing because players at that level can still be efficient at energy control, and a drastic level change would just cause major imbalance and discourage duelist from playing 2v2 if they're in that level range. It's issues like this one in the game that can't afford a bandaid fix. A bad juggernaut fix would cause far more harm than good to the game. I do believe it shouldn't be impossible, and certainly winnable, but at the same time it needs to be balanced. That is why I believe the core problem should be addressed. Sure they could just go ham on the level ranges, but what about the players in those ranges? They want to win just as bad as the juggernaut, and they shouldn't be put at a massive disadvantage.



lionblades -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 17:08:31)

Level ranges do play a role, but that is not the main problem. The reason high level players can own L40 juggs is mainly because higher level plavers have much greater energy control. thus reducing the level ranges is a short term solution, but not long term.

I don't play juggernaut after Passive to Active update because its impossible (and only log on on updates now...) but here is what I found a while back based on my numerous experiences after the P2A change for juggernaut. I kinda let it die out so yeah:
L.40 Juggernaut AKA The Bullied Mode



kosmo -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 17:12:38)

im still jugging whit lvl 25/30 and belive me, i get drained, if u only tested it u could see how thing are evidentually different, opponents deal near to no dmg and they are easely killable in 2 mooves, also the needing of 60 ranks to even be able to compete (when ur not) gives even more evidence to my point.

the range cannot be the same for all lvls, that s just math, the gap decrases whit lvl, at higher lvl 5 lvls gap arent enought because they are nothing if compared to the total lvl of the players.

i will make an absurede example for u to get it: 2 lvls 5 against a lvl 10 and 2 lvls 100 agains a lvl 105; how can the range be the same and balanced for both matches?



ConQrR -> RE: Jug mode rebalance (9/18/2014 18:31:41)

Main issues of jugg especially at level 40

1. Energy control (too much base energy, lots of energy drain and gain skills and cores. Juggs have disadvantage about that cause jugg has to attack, defend, heal, regain energy and steal energy )

2. Eas of spamming one stat after omega.

Like Variation said lowering level range just a bandaid solution. We need something better than that.



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