Robot balancing. (Full Version)

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Remorse -> Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 3:59:24)

Quick overview, New promos are slightly creeping up in power compared to much older bots,
In this thread I am just going to offer ways to buff the older bots as well as give robots a role to fill.


Infernal Android

150 ---->160dmg
Infernal Overload
Deals 85% base damage, increasing by 5% each round in battle (130% cap)
Explanation:
Slight increase in base damage but still the lowest in the game, this bot should fit the role as a high damage single turn nuke rather then medium-high consistent robot damage. The slight buff is only to compensate for other older robots getting buffed by more.

Energy Assault Bot

150 --->170dmg

Cleanse----> Slow cleanse
Reduces 65% of all debuff effects on a target ----> Reduces 70% of all debuff effects on a target
Explanation: This bot is outdated compared to the new ones, however I believe the role is to have a useful special rather then for high robot damage so it is only increases to 170 damage, the effect of the skill is also slightly buffed to make the effect slightly more useful in the current meta.
The name change will become obvious when you read the description of the physical Assault bot.

Physical Assault Bot

150---->190 dmg.
Cleanse----> Quick cleanse
Reduces 65% of all debuff effects on a target ----> Reduces 50% of all debuff effects on a target

Explanation: I decided to separate these two bots and make them more unique rather then just different damage types, now the physical version has a much higher base damage but the special is also a lot weaker as a result, this means this robot can become a niche choice for those that still want high robot damage and the effect,but not as strong as the energy versions effect.


Azrael's Borg

160 --->170dmg

Heart Attack
Reduces 65% of all buff effects on an enemy deals 85% of damage when this is used
Explanation:
A slight damage buff to make the robot more apparent in the current meta.



Baby Yeti/dark yeti

160---> 160 damage

Chomp!
Temporarily disables target's auxiliary and sidearm deals 85% of damage when this is used--->Temporarily disables target's auxiliary and sidearm deals 100% of damage when this is used
Explanation:
I kept the same low damage now but then increase the damage it does when it uses the special up to 100%, therefore the role of this bot will be more about using the special rather then using it for the basic attack damage as well.
I don't like the fact that the yeti's become clearly better as they evolve, I would rather that they became different and uncomparable as they evolve and become suited to certain builds more then others.

Baby Yeti Warrior/dark yeti Warrior

170---> 170 damage
Chomp!
Temporarily disables target's auxiliary and sidearm deals 85% of damage when this is used--->Temporarily disables target's auxiliary and sidearm deals 90% of damage when this is used.
Explanation: Deals the same damage, deals slightly more damage when using the special but less then the baby yeti, this is so they have a difference in defined roles, rather then the evolution simply being better, instead the younger versions offer more damage while using the special and the warrior has slightly higher base then the baby yeti.

Omega Dark Yeti/Omega Yeti/golden/pink

180---> 180 damage
Chomp!
Temporarily disables target's auxiliary and sidearm deals 85% of damage when this is used.
Explanation: This bot stays the same as I think it fits fine in the current meta. Changes to the baby yeti and the warrior yeti's mean that this version is not always necessarily better it may depend on what your builds requires.

Bio Borg

160-->170 damage
Thorns
Reflects 50% of melee damage back at your attacker for 4 turns-->Reflects 50% of melee damage back at your attacker for 5 turns
Explanation:
I think this robot is underpowered in the current meta however I also think that the base damage should be low at 170 and the role of the bot is more focused on the special effect, however the special should be slightly buffed considering how much easier it is to avoid the special with cores etc.


Blood Hawk

170--->170 damage.
Armor Annihilator
Destroy the target's armor for 3 turns; removes bonus defenses and prevents use of Armor Cores. deals 85% of damage when this is used.
Explanation:
This robot should stay the same because I think it is fine in the current meta, the robot is focused more on the special effect so the base damage is a low 170.


Black Abyss Bot

170--->170 damage.
Necrosis
Spit acid on your enemy, lowering their defenses by an increasing amount for 3 turns. deals 85% of damage when this is used
Explanation:
This bot should also stay the same as it is focused more on the special effect rather then bot damage.


Botanical Hazard

170 -->170

Poison Spores
Inflicts 60% of your Robot's damage as poison over 4 turns.
Explanation:
This bot stays the same as it is also focused more on the special effect rather then the bot damage.

Electro Bunny Bot

170-->170
Color Blast
Blast the enemy with pastel paint; egg missiles will rain upon the target if they strike 85% damage---->increase the duration by a turn.
Explanation:
This bot will also stay the same and is focused more on the special then the base damage, perhaps the special effect might need to be buffed by increased the duration an extra turn to make it more apparent in the current meta


Gamma Bot

170-->190

Gamma Fire
Deal 100% energy damage.
Explanation:
The damage of this bot is buffed because I believe the role is focused around high bot damage and it has relatively low utility as the special is merely another attack without an effect.

Lionhart's Avatar

190-->190 damage.

Lionhart's Roar
Grants 50% Rage to all allies
Explanation:
The robot stays the same as it is focused around having higher bot damage but a weak special effect.

Pyro Fly

150 -->160

Infernal Swarm
Randomly disables one of your target's 3 highest level skills for the rest of the battle deals 85% of damage--> Disables an enemy skill of your choice for 3 turns deals 85% of damage.
Explanation:
I really don't like the inconsistency of this bot, it is either extremely useful or really useless depending on luck of which skill you take, I would prefer if you could choose the skill you disable but then as a result only disable it for 3 turns rather then the whole game. This will give this robot a defined role of being a counter for builds that require certain skills too much, and has low bot damage and is focused on the special effect. It will also slightly lower the impact of luck as I believe it is high enough without potential free wins from this bot because you luckily disabled a skill for the whole game they needed.

Botanical Borg

170-->180 damage.

Spore Bombardment
Launch a barrage of explosive spores. Deals 85% damage if it hits multiple targets.
Explanation:
Damage slightly increased as this bot is focus more on the damage rather then the special and needs to have a slight damage increase to be apparent in the current meta.

New Robot *forgot name*

190--->170
Curse of Kartherax
Replace the opponents primary with a fish for 3 turns.
Explanation:
This bot is focused around it's special and therefore to follow the same pattern of other robots focused on their powerful special the robot damage should only be 170.



Alright, that's all of them.

What do you guys think?





kosmo -> RE: Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 5:20:59)

Omega yeti' s special needs to be more valuable, and your right there, but infernal android is fine the way it is.Also nerfing the dmg of new bot would only nerf 5 foucs builds.Assault bot needs to cleanse 85% atleast to be valuable.



Remorse -> RE: Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 5:25:48)

^ Alright I will keep all that into consideration and just see what other people think before changing anything,

Thanks for the feedback :)



Ranloth -> RE: Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 6:40:06)

No buffs to permanently rare Bots, unless it's justified - not so much in this case, as opposed to previous Bot overhaul. Gamma Bot is fine with +170 due to re-useable special attack. It's a bland Bot, but provides unlimited attack of each type (with a cooldown only) unlike any other Bot.

Furthermore, P and E version of Assault Bot are meant to be the same. E was a Varium version in the past, unless really lucky in the old Arcade, and P was released as a weaker version of it for non-Varium players. After Omega was released, both Bots turned into one with two different types, and it's to remain as such.
Lastly, Azrael and Assault Bots are to have the same % for their debuff ability. Something that was also made clear by Rabble, when he brought down both Bots to the same %, and if anything, that's also not going to be changed.



Remorse -> RE: Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 7:27:04)

^ Alright thanks for those consideration.

The change between the assault bots was merely for a bit of fun and variety, but if it's not possible then I guess it's not possible.


I do think however that gamma bot should be buffed,

The reasoning being that when it was made it had the highest base damage of bots, and this made perfect logical sense because this bot special was merely an opposite damage type attack.

It was basically a robot designed to be used as a source of consistent high damage for people that want damage in robots.

The trade off being it doesn't do anything else like other bots, quite a reasonable trade off if you ask me, that is why it should be buffed.


If It's not buffed it would definitely be classified as lacking compared to some newer bots and I think that all bots should have a good chance of being picked for it's useful role in builds.

But because the damage is smaller, even the fact that it can do two damage types does not allow it to compete with robots with 190 damage.



I agree that we have to be careful not to over buff this bot though, because it is exclusive and rare, but I think will need a slight damage buff just to make it on par,


Either this or the other 190 bots are brought down.



suboto -> RE: Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 10:40:01)

quote:

Azrael and Assault Bots are to have the same % for their debuff ability


^
this how is a offensive debuff to a enemy that not only cuts shields but deals damage meant to be the same as a defensive buff robot?
That just doesnt add up azrael should be 65% and assault should be 70 or 75% given it does no damage or it should heal 30hp.
I agree with the dmg improvement of 30 on both assault bots.

assault bot 180dmg cures 65%+30hp heal
Azrael bot 180dmg 65% of buffs+30dmg
or
assault bot 180dmg cures 70-75%
azrael bot 180dmg 65% of buffs+30dmg




Ranloth -> RE: Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 10:45:39)

Offense will always be stronger than defense. You cannot win by not attacking, and these Bots will remain this way - even if any changes are made to the damage. Azrael Borg's + Assault Bots' effects are meant to be equal in terms of the debuff %, likewise with P and E versions being the same (since it's the same Bot).

30 damage is hardly an issue in this case. If you're gonna debuff your opponent, your Bot will likely deal only 30 damage, due to their Shield and their defenses.



Remorse -> RE: Robot balancing. (9/21/2014 11:40:24)

^ But their is a significant rage advantage with that.



Stonehawk -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 13:11:10)

quote:

Infernal Android

150 ---->160dmg
Infernal Overload
Deals 85% base damage, increasing by 5% each round in battle (130% cap)
Explanation:
Slight increase in base damage but still the lowest in the game, this bot should fit the role as a high damage single turn nuke rather then medium-high consistent robot damage. The slight buff is only to compensate for other older robots getting buffed by more.


How about:

150 ---->170dmg

Deals 75% base damage, increasing by 5% each round (120% cap)

This makes the special not so overpowered and also useful physical damage to be used during the battle.




Remorse -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 13:22:34)

^ I like that adjustment :)



Justingbieberfangirl -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 16:02:42)

@Trans

While it is true that deffensive stuff should be weaker than offensive there are still some things to justify the assult bot getting its NEEDED buff to CLEANSE.

1.)The debuffs are weaker than buffs. (meaning that the azreals borg will remove more of the buff)

So if a person does level 3 malf with 50 support they will reduce LESS TECHNOLOGY THAN a technician would if you would have 50 DEX.
Also I am pretty sure that the lvl 3 technician will cost less. ( not sure )


2.)Azreals brog gives you rage & does damage whilst the assault bot does NOT do damage NOR give RAGE.


3.)Azreals brog DEALS MORE DAMAGE..


As for the threat I support most of these but the ones which i really love are the remakes of

Pyro Fly. I really feel as making 10 skillpoitns disabled for the rest of the battle is a bit strong.

Bunny Bot I really do feel that it is pretty much useless unless you are compleatly not paying attention.

And obviously the both assault bots.



Mother1 -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 16:17:22)

@ Trans

The Azreal's borgs special is not locked at 30 Damage. As someone who uses this bot I can tell you that it does 60% focus damage. The only reason it usual hit's 30 is

A) the opponent has decent enough defenses for the robot to only hit min damage
B) the person isn't using focus
C) both

@ Justingbieberfangirl

Yes the Azreal borg may take more, however unlike with the Assault bot that means there is still more of the buff there.

Every time you nerf debuffs you indirectly buff the Assault bot's cleanse because it make the effect just that more painful due to it leaving less of the debuff than it would have before. Where as if they were buffed there would be more of the debuff left even after cleanse.

Also for the damage the Azreal borg gives it still is worthless against Hybrid armor, mineral armor, and Plasma armor where as the Assault bot has no limits to the debuffs it can cleanse on skill trees. The Assault bot also makes the one time omega override special worthless seeing as it's effect isn't immune to it.

As for the bunny bot itself while it is a situational bot that takes more brains to use than the others it isn't worthless. At lower levels this bot can cripple players especially if they aren't fully geared and don't have cores.

I used this bot with my old level 18 alt, and with it I was able to win battles I would have normally lost due to them not being able to strike when needed. At higher levels it is a good counter the strength strike builds if timed right as well.




RageSoul -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 20:42:10)

Since Katherax Darkspawns reduce Primary damage , what about skills like Static Smash and Atom Smasher getting weakened ?



DeathGuard -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 21:03:54)

@RageSoul: The effect of Kartherax's DarkSpawn already decreases such energy drains



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 22:27:14)

Static Charge isn't weakened even though it works off primary damage. (Thank goodness, as if getting the actual 85% strike weakened wasn't bad enough.....)



RageSoul -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/5/2014 23:22:02)

Odd , seems like a bit of inconsistency there . Oh well , looks like i'm still playing my TM alt char.



Remorse -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/6/2014 8:06:36)

quote:

Static Charge isn't weakened even though it works off primary damage. (Thank goodness, as if getting the actual 85% strike weakened wasn't bad enough.....)


What??

This is weird... Why would they have unexplained exceptions?


I find it kinda annoying how on more then one occasions they have these little exceptions which completely defies logic...


I'm not saying that static charge should be affected by this robot but they should at the very least add some sort of explanation as to why it doesn't for example,

Static Charge: Gains energy as a percentage equal to 85% of STARTING melee damage.


Even with this explanation it doesn't really excuse this exception properly.

In all honesty I think that static charge should be effected simply for consistency.




They really need to sort out effects of skills to give clear explanations especially if they wish to greatly expand the core range.


Balance is still important, but they shouldn't be basing balance off all these little exceptions, skills need to be logical and their effects clearly defined without unmentioned exceptions or reasoning to these exceptions.

If cores/robots they introduce need little exceptions for them to be balanced, then perhaps it's not balanced...



I really think they should consider giving skill effects/cores Classification a old post I made gives an example of this : http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21579609&mpage=1&key=curse�




DeathGuard -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/6/2014 14:22:04)

ImaryStatic Charge isn't affected by stat changes during battle, just as Hybrid Armor. Even if your foe blocks your Static Charge, you regain the energy you would have gained if you weren't block. Assimilation works this way as well but Static Smash and Atom Smash based of your primary's base. If affected direclty by intimidate, the primary base strength gets affected.



Remorse -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/7/2014 2:05:34)

^ ok,

But my point still stands, they should be explaining these types of events in the skills explanation.



For example if they used the system I created above, then in the description of the skills they could add a small extra bit of text : Immune to shrinks, in the description of say hybrid armor or static charge etc.



Or they could go one step further and add to the description of the term blessing, Immune to shrinks.

So this way they wouldn't even need to add extra text to the individual skills.



VanitySixx -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/7/2014 13:05:45)

I haven't read many of the other replies, but I can not support this.

1. Buffing all of the other bots in the game will do nothing but promote 5 focus builds, which are too basic from lvl 38-40.

2. Infernal Android well remain one of the best bots in the game until a bot dealing even 195 damage arrives. The Special will be peaking or barely passing 200 damage at a 130% increase. I haven't done the clear math, but the damage will vaguely be that.

But, I do agree that The Curse of Kartherax is a bit OP. Reducing the damage to 170 won't solve the issue. The damage is not nearly as big of a problem as the special, which acts as the ultimate Intimidate and makes your primary basically unusable for 3 turns. This gives any class the power of Intimidate, but at a MUCH greater scale.

I believe in order to fix the issue, make the special only exist for 2 turns. This is enough time so the user of the bot can counter a strength build, while giving the opponent a chance to counter the bot's effects; the opponent will stall for two turns.

In the Curse's current state, the opponent can not counter it with enough damage unless you're a dex tech mage or a support spamming mercenary. The rest of the classes focus on using their primaries for their primary source of damage besides a robot.

BUT, I do agree with the Gamma Bot buff since it's special is literally just a basic energy attack. I also agree with the buffs to the Assault Bots. Either buff the Assault Bots or drastically lower the price for lower levels to use, because higher levels are unable to use this bot successfully.



Variation -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/7/2014 13:54:48)

^So it takes an obscene amount of effort to use three different moves other than primary based moves? I think not. The special is easily counted and has a damage penalty, no nerfs are justified. Also members of the team have already spoken on the balance of the Kartherax robots.

quote:

Also, there are no plans to nerf the Bot at all. There are ways to counter it, and had Str builds not been a fad, it would be barely any more useful than the Yetis are currently. Build variety doesn't contribute to item's balance.


quote:

It won't get nerfed. Trans mentioned it already. The primary and robot's core and damage are balanced and just because some are thinking it is "OP", they won't get the nerf they want for it. I think I have mentioned it several times but something can't be OP if it is beatable/counterable and from what I have read from many of the posts here, it is counterable.


So as you can see the EpicDuel team is well aware of the unjustified complaints on the new robots and from pure logic they've deemed it wasn't overpowered. So don't expect a nerf when the team has already closely examined the new robots it. All of this just goes back to the fact that some players refuse to invest time into new strategies. If you see someone with this robot use primary based attacks until they use the special(unless they're a dex mage, and besides dex mages already have a huge block chance), and then use three other moves that aren't based off of your primary, it really isn't rocket science. I could see justification for a nerf on this robot if it wasn't so easily countered, but in its current state it requires very little effort to counter. Players just need to play correctly against players with this robot, and many like I've said refuse to change their strategies.



VanitySixx -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/7/2014 21:34:36)

Variation I'm speaking from personal experience. As a 5 Focus Blood Mage, I never really fought my way through a battle with someone who had Kartherax. As a Bounty Hunter, I've been very successful in figuring out ways to maneuver around it.

I'd be just fine if it weren't nerfed though. I kind of feel like EVERY new bot/promo that comes out is deemed as OP when in actuality, it's likely not.



Remorse -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/8/2014 4:28:05)

^ It's not, but it's base damage for a robot is unjustifiably high compared to all other robots with useful specials.


It sets a new standard which either, all robots need to reach to be fair or it need to be brought down to a fair level hence the slight damage nerf I gave it.

As for infernal android, it may be the case it doesn't require any changes, or perhaps nerf the special slightly and therefore buff the base.

But the point is, it's hard to tell if this bot needs a change when their are so many older bots not up to standard needing buffs.


Buffing older robots is not to "promote 5 focus"

This suggestion is separate, and it is merely to put all robots on a equal ground so to speak.


5 focus promotion as an issue separate from this and should not be used as an argument towards not balancing robots.

I personally don't like 5 focus at all I think it is a stupid concept and that robots should improve some other way that doesn't restrict variety as much.



VanitySixx -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/9/2014 18:12:43)

If all robots are put on equal ground, don't you believe there will be more complaints just as how all PLAYERS were put on "equal ground" with the start of Omega?

5 Focus is already used by nearly every level 38-40. If all bots are put on "equal ground" it does in fact indirectly promote the use of 5 focus builds, even though the suggestion is separate.

Kartherax from my own personal experiences are not deemed as "overpowered" in my eyes.

The point of games is to keep on progressing. EpicDuel shouldn't play catch up with their old items, because they are OLD items for a reason. If they buff old equipment, why would players feel the need to buy the new equipment?

It's base damage is high because it's revolutionizing EpicDuel. We can't keep being dragged back into the past, updating everyone's old gear because players are refusing to purchase or earn the newer gear.

According to another player (I have forgotten his/her name), Kartherax was seen as fairly balanced by the developers, and will not be needing a nerf. It's time to move forward with the game and not dwell on the past (old gear).




Dual Thrusters -> RE: Robot balancing. (10/9/2014 18:44:59)

Trying to make people buy new stuff is not an excuse to make items even more powerful than the last one released. That's power creep.



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