sword vs club/daggers/staffs (Full Version)

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king altoen -> sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/20/2014 20:03:35)

I noticed that in more than half the classes in ED (cyber, bh, bm, tlm), it is in most cases pointless to use the perspective primary of the class, and instead most of them tend to use swords, since they provide higher stats and damage.
I wanna suggest that class primaries have higher stats, while swords having higher damages.
This would make the player have to make a decision based on their builds, instead of blindly always having a sword equipped for any type of build.



Stonehawk -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/21/2014 11:27:56)

It is fine the way it is. It's just a bit sad that only 2 classes are unable to pick up a good fight with swords (tech mage and mercenaries) because their energy controlling skills depend on their specific weapons.



king altoen -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/21/2014 15:39:00)

please explain to me how "it is fine". more than 90% of the battles i'm in are against people with swords. class specific weapons cost way more than swords, but are still much weaker.



Ranloth -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/21/2014 15:46:05)

They cost more because they are Mutating, so you pay for 3 weapons, actually.



The berserker killer -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/21/2014 23:37:09)

I support this. I don't believe that its right to be penalized with lower stat points because you decide to use the weapon your class was originally assigned. A weapon that you are to have mastered.

To go even further I would suggest that stats go to +12 technology for mages with staffs, +12 dexterity for hunters with claws, and +10 str and support for merc



king altoen -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 0:10:49)

@trans Using a sword is also technically like getting 3 weapons, since it works with all classes..



Mother1 -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 0:44:28)

@King altoen

However unlike mutating weapons swords don't let you use every move on your skill tree and that is the whole point of swords. You get extra power and stats from them in exchange for not being able to use weapon specific moves on your skill tree.

So as it is now you have to choose between either having extra power at the cost of using certain skills or having access to your entire skill tree with a weaker weapon than a sword.

Changing it to what you would suggest would be a double whammy for swords users since they already give up their skill tree.



king altoen -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 1:45:18)

@mother1

But what about BH, CH, TLM, and BM who literally have 0 incentive to use their class specific weapons. Swords having 5 stat points and 10dmg more than class specific weapons.

Skill trees for the classes mentioned above are designed in a way that makes using these class specific weapons useless (for the most part, SS and SC builds), especially that we are in an era where any ultimate/energy focused build gets shutdown by a varierty of energy drainers ranging from

skills to cores for every equipment. So unless you wanna experiment with builds that require these class specific weapons ( which are very energy reliant ), picking them over a sword is very disadvantageous.



Remorse -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 2:29:40)

I think king altoen has a point.

The way swords versus class specific weapons are not perfect.


Currently their is an upside and downside to using either technically.


However some builds don't gain any advanatge for using certain class specific skills.

And so Swords to certain builds become an advanatge with no disadvantage, and this is why the system is not perfect.



I think their should be both an advantage and disadvantage to both for all builds.


I think they should make a few new sword only skills for each class and then make the stats the same.
This would be a big change to gameplay, but honestly their gameplay needs a change that would bring more variety.



dfo99 -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 3:01:29)

quote:

They cost more because they are Mutating, so you pay for 3 weapons, actually.


how exactly pay for 3 weapons? i am the only one that don't understand this? also what is the diference between a weapon mutating and not mutating? the delta knight armor for example is a mutating armor, i search on the wiki and don't find nothing about.



king altoen -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 3:04:26)

mutating means that when you change class, the weapon/armor changes class with you. therefore you can use it with your new class.



dfo99 -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 4:14:50)

lol, idk about that because i change my class only 1 time and was from tm to bm.



beaststyles -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 5:17:00)

@ Trans

Ability to mutate is not really a valid reason for weapons to cost more. Since all it means is that the can be used with any class; which is also true with swords.



Ranloth -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 5:29:30)

It is, though. Swords lock skills for all classes, whilst class-specific weapons have access to all skills. Swords work on the same basis for any class, whilst Mutating has three different weapons compressed into one - which saves you Credits on buying a separate weapon for that class. You can't exactly use your Staff if you're a Mercenary or Hunter.

Same with Mutating Armors. There are class specific and Mutating ones.



Goony -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 6:24:56)

Simple solution would be to have all energy drain/regain skills require class specific weapon. This would also address some other balance issues ;)



Remorse -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 6:34:10)

^ In that case you might as well through all swords out the door, since in this meta it would be almost completely unviable to not use energy manipulation skills.



I still think they should just make some sword only skill for each class, or they could just make some of the skills require a sword only, then make the stats the same for both.



Goony -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 6:42:18)

Well if you're a Merc or a Tech Mage you have already thrown all swords out... At least level the playing field and make swords viable for those classes, since the meta means that they are unable to use the higher damage/stat weapons.



Remorse -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 6:55:14)

^ Agreed, I'll have a think and try come up with something.


EDIT:

Ok how about this for an idea,

What if the skills that required the class specific item, changed into a sword only skill if you have a sword equipped?

These skills could have similar effects as the skills they replace but have different twist to them.


For example:

Assimilation which is staff only, became "Assimilation 2" when a sword is equipped and was just like the staff assimilation but it drained less but instead had 100% damage. (Example merely for proof of concept)





beaststyles -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 10:52:46)

@ Trans

Firstly what diff does it make whether your weapon can mutate or not as compared to a sword. Since the whole point of mutating is when you change class from a mage to a merc; you will have a weapon you can use (this time a club). Same is the case for a sword. Once you change class from mage to merc; you will again have a weapon to use (this time a sword). So whether you have 3 weapons compressed into one or not is irrelevant here since sword can also be used in all 3 class categories.

Above is my explanation of my reply to you comment below:
quote:


They cost more because they are Mutating, so you pay for 3 weapons, actually.


In your reply you raised a second point which was not under discussion i.e. skills locked to class specific weapon. However don't forget that to compensate for the inability to use these skills a sword has more damage and stats. So again I so no reason for the imbalance in pricing.

Furthermore, look at TLM. I have said this before; the balance between a sword TLM and class specific weapon TLM is broken since the only skill which requires a class specific weapon is Atomic Smasher. Whereas other classes require at least 2 if not more class specific weapon locked skills. My suggestion for this for now would be to give frenzy back its weapon requirement with a slight buff.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say:)



Mother1 -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 11:45:23)

@ beaststyles

Lets say I brought a regular non mutating weapon. Then I change my class, can I use that weapon with my new class? Only if it is the evolved version of that class otherwise my weapon is worthless unless I change back to my old class or it's evolved/devolved counterpart.

Mutating weapons however no matter what the class is will be 100% usable which more than make up for them costing more. You are basically paying for the convience of not having to buy a new weapon every time you class as well as the upgrades for the starter weapon you would get with class change.



beaststyles -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 13:37:56)

@ Mother1

We were discussing the price of mutating weapons vs sword not mutating weapons vs non mutating weapons. Of-course it makes sense for mutating weapons to cost more than non mutating. However it does not make sense why mutating weapons cost more than their sword counterparts. I have explained above as to why. Think about it, your sentence applies not only to mutating weapons but also swords:

quote:

the convience of not having to buy a new weapon every time you class as well as the upgrades for the starter weapon you would get with class change.


Please keep in mind that trans said:

quote:

They cost more because they are Mutating, so you pay for 3 weapons, actually.


I said:

quote:

Ability to mutate is not really a valid reason for weapons to cost more. Since all it means is that the can be used with any class; which is also true with swords.


Hence the discussion was regarding whether or not it makes sense for mutating weapons to cost more than swords due to their ABILITY TO MUTATE with class. And NOT regarding whether they cost more due to the benefit of being able to use other skills with class specific weapons. Although I have already explained why the second reason is not valid too. I will quote it here for convenience:
quote:


to compensate for the inability to use these skills a sword has more damage and stats. So again I so no reason for the imbalance in pricing.



noremako -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/22/2014 22:37:14)

I think that sword should merely have a damage advantage.

But class spec weps shouldn't be stats >> sword.

Equal stats, sword dmg >> class spec, 1 or 2 viable and useful skills for CH, BH, BM, TLM become spec only.

Now we are talking equality.

(I don't mean energy skills, or even things like Smokescreen. Mark of Blood maybe. Skills like dat)



king altoen -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/23/2014 1:19:24)

Logically, the class specific weapons would have more stat points than swords, since they are weapons that your class are "skilled" on.



noremako -> RE: sword vs club/daggers/staffs (12/23/2014 4:24:40)

While thematically, a stat buff would be preferable, in any circumstance sword dealing extra damage would not compensate for the loss of core skills + stat loss.

Stat loss is technically equal to damage loss. Stat loss loses the power of some skills (optional in most circumstances). Damage loss loses the power of strike (also optional due to a sheer variety of weaponry).

See, sword on Merc works due to the STR Merc. Sword doesn't kill mage, as on my lvl 28 and 32 TM alts I can clearly see that Sword still fulfills a high damage role. Malf, Bludgeon still works. Battery still works, Plasma (IDK why you'd really need it but k) and Scythe, ALL work. Especially Bludgeon.

Specific weapons DO hurt the other classes, badly. Venom Strike is almost laughably dismissed (its set damage doesn't do it justice, on a side note Venom damage should really scale), BM loses pretty much nothing but Fireball, which is nigh useless or unnecessary considering a 'strength build' doesn't make use of set damage skills like Fireball. TLM, well.. the only reason Frenzy isn't club is because its name sounds like it isn't a club req.

Thats just stupid. Stopping Balance because of a name? Which can be changed at a whim's notice? Come on, just change the name of give it a req already.

CH's Static Charge should remain sword, because its purely a damage based skill and its pretty hefty in its importance to the class. Just buff the class a little and give a req to something important.

BH? Easy, MoB >> Wristblades. Might sound drastic but keep in mind that Sword classes are reliant on dealing enough damage to kill, rather then keep on the defensive. Sword classes can easily FM, since they can deal enough damage to keep up.


TL;DR: Don't stat change. Stats should be equal, Sword should be stronger, more 'mid tier' skills should be specific only, only for the 4 classes that currently laugh at specific weapons.



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