Balance Vs. Variety (Full Version)

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Remorse -> Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 2:48:07)

I would like to start a thread discussing what I feel to be a major problem and that is the diminishing of variety for conceptual "balance".

We have seen it a lot recently, big changes include:

-Giving all classes a means to both energy drain, and energy re-gain.
-Removal of Passives


Now here is why I think this is a problem, I believe this is not the type of balance (making things similar) the game should be aiming for,
This type balance will only lead to low variety and frankly boring gameplay!


I want to bring back the concept of balance through un-comparability, Currently balance is trying to make Class "A's" skill set as strong as Class "B's".
What they should be doing is making Class "B" completely different to Class "A" and so preference over them will come over to preference of the user.


Epic duel needs to return it's focus on unique strategies for each class not similar version of builds usable by each class.




One important thing to consider is that so long as their is enough counter-play and skills aren't broken in terms of number power. Then balance through making things completely different is highly achievable and also allows for a much more enjoyable gameplay. Proof being many other games that are considered balanced with this concept, such as league of legends. These videos can help to explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g




What do you guys think, do you think Epic duel needs to bring back variety and make classes considerably different?

Or do you guys like the way they are seemingly balancing the game now by making classes equal in skill sets and capabilities?


Discuss.







Daph Duck -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 3:02:48)

I strongly agree with you Remorse! Im a strong supporter of all your forums idea and I also beleive variety should be a key factor in Epic Duel. I really wish we had more viable varietys in Epicduel to give classes a new identity! Starting by fixing the assault bot so the de-buffs are useable, and energy parasite should be removed so BM can be a special class! Focus needs a change because it is decreasing viable variety, same build on different classes:( also the Botanical Borg needs a balance way too OP especialyl with str builds. I admire yuo so much for your amazign ideas and i honestly hope you beomce balence tester.



Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 3:15:25)

^ I agree with needing to change assault bot.


The current version is pretty old, and it could have potential to add more counter-play to many obnoxious skills such as energy drains over time.

It would be cool if the assault bot had the added effect of removing any negative effects that are on the user apart from poison.

This would include, frost shards, energy parasite, mark of blood, hatching rush etc.


They may have to lower assaults bots buff removal to say 20% or they could make a completely new bot to remove the above negative effects.

But the point is they need more counter-play.

P.S Thanks for the support.



The Jop -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 3:35:12)

Removing any effect apart from poison is really overpowered. I don't know why poison gets to stay when you think more powerful effects should get removed instantly.




Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 3:54:54)

^ I just think everything needs counter-play, currently poison already has heal.


Plus it could be a one time use thing that can remove a negative effect.

It would also be important for the person using negative buffs to consider it's removal and thus better gameplay for both sides.


Anyway this is off topic.




Lord Machaar -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 8:50:59)

I can't agree nor disagree with you in this purpose.

Devloppers and especially "RabbleFroth" which I believe he is the responsible of balance in ED now, was stuck in a two way exit to solve the never-ending problem, Balance:

1- Make all classes have same OP skills: as you mentioned energy drain and re-gain.

2- Make each class with its unique OP skills: which will lead to players complaining about how that OP skill of "X" class.

First option makes the game stable yet boring, as you can see now the game has few balance problems, some say BM is OP here, some say TlM is OP there. But the range is limited.

Second option will make the game opened for different builds, yet each player using "X" class will complain about "Y" class, and vice-versa or the player using "Y" class will complain about "Z" class. In first option all players using a certain class complain about one OP class "X". Yet other classes are fairly balanced. And have 50/50 chance against each other.

Personally I believe that Rabblefroth or whoever is responsible of balance should stick with a stable balanced game, which leaves him/her/them free for coming up with new ideas. And for a person who makes balances for a game he doesn't play, relying on testers, won't and will never be efficient.
We heard that there will be a new way to watch battles "Battle something..." which lets the responsible of balance see battles live or recorded. That might help him/her/them yet not enough.



Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 12:44:55)

^ Although I can agree mostly to your opinion.


Balance complaints however are not exclusive to option two.


In fact, people are much more likely to complain about skill differences when they are so similar!

For example, EMP versus Static Grenade,
Static grenade, especially early version is free, and it also returns energy, comparably better then EMP (Yes, EMP has some upsides).

So it was no surprise people complained the hell out of it until it was nerfed to the ground and rightfully so might I add.

WHY?

Because bounty hunters should not of been given the skill in the first place.

I never heard of a complaint about bounty hunters being weak because they had no energy regain back before the change and so it is clear that people complain, when they can make comparisons.

Which means, make classes unique and I wager complaining will lower, so long as counter-play is sufficient and nothing is overly brocken.



Of coarse making the game different will have some issues with say class "X" having overly strong strategies.

But that is the whole point of constant balance updates and counterplay mechanics.


Why bother with perfectly balanced classes (through making everything the same) anyway when the result is a boring game mostly dictated by luck?



Am I the only one who can see that classes have little more variety then the color of the chess piece.

This video I think helps to explain how I feel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w








Justingbieberfangirl -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 13:12:19)

Yah variety has always been lacking (I started playing in gamma and I am a non var)

I agree with this. I mean atom smasher is clearly stronger than static smash. I mean the high % and the very low energy cost. It compleatly removes battery backups all energy if you have enough support.

On a more serious note. Yes they should make weapons depending on the class do different damages and a TON of cores need to be added. (Blades of blood. When you strike you steal 3% of the damage done). And epic duel would be extremely boring at the current meta if it wasnt for ranks. Even tho they are a bad design(Ppl with more xp get stronger) ect. ect.
it brings some variety and huge enjoyment if you as rank 4 defeat a rank 30 player which is like 4 lvls above you.

And idk but I would like that more skills improve with something I mean (1.)Batery Backup 2.)Heal 3.)atom smasher/static smash/static charge/static grenade.(the % don't improve)/toxic grenade and venom strike/MoB/SA/Massacare and maybe a few more which I have forgotten.


So over all I do support this with 101% because 100% isn't enough



Lord Machaar -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 13:37:54)

@Remorse and ^

I can't agree more with you in this point, what the fun in playing a PVP game yet using a "copied" builds?

The thing is, since adding up three more classes to the game, things got more complicated.
Adding up more classes is always cool and fun, adds variety to the game and much more. Now tell the community that ED will add 3 more classes to make it 9.

Most players will quit the game before finishing the setence. Because back in Beta, there were balance problems even when there were 3 classes, having 6 classes, made the balance problem more vast.
Yes, adding up more classes will bring variety, but on the other hand it's not always fun, there will be constantly OP classes and balance problems.

Same thing goes with skills and cores, I think, whoever is responsible for the game balance now is aware of that problem, and he/she/them is/are trying to make the game more stable by decreasing the number of builds available and options. This is a bad move in term of variety and fun, but we should wait until the end, because future-decisive balance moves come with a price.

This is my personal point of view, some might say, that the game should keep its variety alongside having constant balance problems that devs should work on. But having constant balance problems will make the devs busy enough to not add something cool and original to the game. Adding something new to a "X" class will take testing of days and hours on other 5 classes, but not classes only, but for different builds of each class also. And as you know the ED team is so small for challenges this big. If there was like 50 testers, balance moves will be more efficient.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 16:54:13)

IMO balance can improve the enjoyment and fun factor in a game, but only if there actually is any to exist in the first place. With all classes having very similar kits in general, most 1v1s are very monotonous with few interesting builds, and this causes the fun factor to be minimal. Even if it is more balanced than before (which arguably it isn't), I like to think of improved balance as a multiplier for the current fun factor value. What the devs should really be focusing on is bringing back unique class identities, which makes certain classes feel very prominent in some areas and others not. This would actually promote class changes more because changing to a new class would bring an entirely new kit and a vast selection of different builds that were nowhere near possible on the previous class before the switch.

So how do the devs seamlessly implement more unique class identity as of now without harming ANY part of the game currently?

Fix overlapping skills

Once there's more base fun factor and variety in the game, the improvement that balance makes to a player's enjoyment will be magnified immensely.



Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 22:27:45)

@Lord Machaar


It seems to me that you think of perfect balance as an achievable state.


I don't think it will ever be, especially with constant new cores and robots made constantly changing the meta.


However this is also not a bad thing, just because balance is constantly going out of balance doesn't mean we should reduce the game's enjoyment.


It just means that they need a dedicated balance team to make appropriate adjustments as required.

And there is nothing wrong with this, the best games do it and so should Epic Duel.

Frankly I think the game would be worse if it was "perfectly balanced" because to me this implies low variety and creativity, and low overall fun.













king altoen -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/26/2014 22:32:34)

I want the same feel as back in beta.... Mercs were the 2v2 champs, mages and bh's were op in their perspective roles, where matches were very competitive between them, but they weren't op to the point where mercs didn't stand a chance..

Right now, you go 1v1 Blood mages are kings, 2v2 Blood mages, jugger Blood mages, npc battling Blood mages, while whoever chooses to venture to classes like ch, and Tlm are penalized in every aspect.

I want the feeling I used to have before when every class had something op about them. Not whichever build I have, I get energy drained from 100 to 0 in 2 rounds.. I mean they added so many energy drainers from skills and cores to every piece of equipment, that it is almost impossible to do

anything besides strength abuse and focus.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/27/2014 7:29:45)

@KingAlteon:

The thing is, there were only three classes in beta ED, it was a lot easier to keep things balanced. 6 classes is just a mess, I personally think one person with 5 testers can't handle this task.

@Remorse:

I'm not saying that the game should be perfectly balanced because it won't, but on the other hand, too much variety might make the game unplayable. some players are just looking for balance problems to over use it and abuse it, I'm sure you played the game long enough to know what I'm talking about.

Reasonable additions to the skill tree with a-l-o-t of testing, will probably make the game balanced enough to be playable for all classes. If the game balance was constructed good enough like this from the beginning, when someone comes up with an idea, it should be tested first, intensively, then implemented, we wouldn't see such "balance" problems, which make us, players, miss a lot of features that can make the game more fun, instead of just tumbling in constant balance troubles.



Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/27/2014 7:41:59)

^

Too much variety shouldn't make the game unplayable, variety can be the key to balance!



What they need to do is come up with huge changes which involved incorporating multiple counter-play mechanics.


All they need to do is ensure any strategy has multiple counters usable by all classes and balance can be relatively stable.



People will always abuse builds for sure, but if they game was full of variety which has clear upsides and downsides to it's strategy then it ensures no strategy can be over the top, and the builds that to rise to the top from time to time can easily toned down with balance changes.

Currently the lack of counter play to certain obnoxious strategies now limits variety even lower now such as STR and focus builds.





It will be no easy task, but it will be the only way the game's gameplay can progress. Perhaps enough to compete with top turn based strategy games out currently such as Hearthstone.



Tatparjya -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/27/2014 14:07:49)

you see the problem is rather simple , the problem is a game needs both balance and variety. the balance needs to be achived and altered correctly for variety to come and to achieve such thing we need time and LOTS of it. you see the thing that is lacking in epicduel is not the game content but what lacked is pre-production discussion where the devs discuss again and again the ideas and style and the mechanics in which the game will play.lets take starcraft for example. starcraft 2 took almost 9 years to release after starcraft 1 and they are still changing and adding things in the starcraft 2. epicduel does not have such timeframe. the amount of variety you are talking about like every class has different skill sets/trees takes rigorous play testing and balancing , if they mess it up somehow the problem of player saying "x" class is much more better then "Y" class will arise. the fact that epic duel has 6 classes adds to the problem. there are COUNTLESS possibilities in skill and stat combination that can be achieved which when put in game situetion will beat some classes loose to other classes and this intersecting skills and possibilities will grow larger and larger and larger buy every time the mechanic is being tested.sadly epicduel does not have such time,we would need a huge amount of calculetion and testing and coding to achive that subtly unbalnced balenced state which gives rise to good counter-play and gives rise to new stratageys. Epicduel both did and didnot achive such state which can be observed in very subtle output by different classes. Epicduel is currently is in i think omega state , which was said by charafade (or however you pronounce her name) where they handle the technical aspects of the game. i assume they are talking about coding and server stability in this case. we still have a long time beacuse the game is still in a way in its growing and evolving stage.



Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/27/2014 14:24:09)

Yes change needs time,

However I think it's estimation to enhance variety is way over.

What they need to do is reinject class identity not unlike what class unique passives once achieved.


This sort of change would need considerable time however I can't imagine it being any longer then the time it required to remove passives and give each class similar skill sets essentially diminishing variety to boring gameplay levels.

So I don't see why people automatically think of variety changes as unrealistic.


Plus I think what the game needs is to jump into the deep end and make some major changes. They have very little to lose and so much to gain from doing so.



Mother1 -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/27/2014 14:48:11)

@ Remorse

If they do that hopefully they do it and not leave gaping holes that can bite the player base in the butt. Passive to active change took months to do, however with it along with the cost to cores added prior cause huge stress on energy which lead to the bandaid energy parasite and static grenade.

The last thing that is needed is for something like this to happen again.

However I do agree that the game needs to make classes more unique again and stop making everything the same. That is what ruined the game big time. Energy classes (the original ones anyways) lost their uniqueness because of this.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/27/2014 17:02:36)

To sum up all I said earlier:

Balance: Stable environement, lets Devs think about revolutinary ideas to fix balance problems for good, yet boring, leaving players with a small amount of options.

Variety: Fun, but on the other hand, constant balance problems, leaving devs enough busy to not come up with something new, leaving the game frozen at a certain state, running around circles.

Both options are bitter-sweet. I prefer a balanced play-able game. But let's see what devs will choose.

@Remorse:

The jump to Omega, is already a big major change, didn't work that good.

I think slowing a little bit, war is off, game is stable, gifting is over... a couple weeks or 3 why not, is enough to let the devs think about the next big step.



Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/28/2014 3:56:55)

^

I don't see how the current state is stable/balanced.


Lets think for a second at the major unresolved issues they created when the decided to half variety with energy and passive changes.



-Energy skills are broken, pretty much a requirement for any builds because of the meta revolving around controlling it.

-Builds numbers are both low and broken, only viable ones are variants of strength or focus builds.

-Games are either determined by the broken battle advanatge caused by legendary ranks (undoing the good omega started off having when they removed the varium advantages) or they are determined more or less by luck. Because strategies are so similar and the right options are more or less obvious thanks to low variety.

-Enjoyment overall is boring, at least in my opinion. I can't even stand to play the game in it's current state! If anything this thread is appeal to make the game worthy of my time.



Let's consider for a second that they decided to do huge changes that added variety, and let's say it caused huge holes and balance problems. Guess what?
It would still be better then it's current position now. So they literally have nothing to lose!

They literally spent months doing these so called "passive removal changes" and they left it's huge problems unresolved!



The player base is already small and they need to risk slight reduction for huge changes if it can potentially cause a boom in enjoyment and therefore a boom in player base in the future.



And besides, they have no shortage of ideas to increase variety, they simply need to listen to some of the suggestions made by the players.
Here are some of of the idea's I have made in the past:
Passive Skill Tree--- Changes to allow for separate passive tree

Focus as a Percentage



RageSoul -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/28/2014 4:15:57)

Why not just give certain abilities with passive bonuses / effects? Sure the Devs said passives aren't coming back but actives-with-bonuses aren't considered passives as well



Remorse -> RE: Balance Vs. Variety (12/28/2014 4:19:45)

^ That could be a good compensation idea,


Personally I think banning the whole concept of passives (even though they have passive cores) was the stupidest thing the devs have ever done, and should go back on this statement whilst they can still retain some dignity.



They should think of a neat way to reintroduce class unique passives while not returning any of the issues it had in the past which apparently justified it's removal.


In my opinion the only made this anti-passive statement because they were sick of people wanting it returned.


But what they have essentially done is ignored the slight possibility that maybe it could be good thing to have in the future...


It's like saying we will never eat again just because they aren't hungry at the particular moment...


Why would anyone say they will NEVER do something when they have no idea of the circumstances of the future.



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