Strength changes (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> Strength changes (6/15/2015 15:25:16)

Before you read further, this is not confirming any of these changes will be happening. Looking for feedback on these, before they can be discussed further.

We all know that Strength has been nerfed, possibly a bit too much. This has devalued many Melee skills which were indirectly nerfed, and indirectly buffing ones which rely on fixed values.
There has been a debate whether we should’ve nerfed Strike or Strength, but it was decided that Strike should be an universal attack which cannot be penalized for using when your weapons are in cooldown / you have no EP for skills / etc. Yes, Strength nerf killed off Strength abuse for the most part – but it was also a build which was easily abused with not so much drawback to it; be it your ratio, or fast wins; it had both, with little skill required. Objectively speaking.

I am poking a few ideas on how to buff Strength, without actually buffing it directly. It’s more leaning towards variety, rather than straight-up buff.

  • Berzerker, Bludgeon and Double Strike;
    • Nerfing the base % by approx. 5%
    • Add ‘+1% per x <Stat>’ scaling.
      • The <stat> in question would either be Dex or Strength. If we go for Dex, scaling could be a bit faster (e.g. +1% per 7 Dex), whilst on Strength – since it already increases Primary damage – it would be something like +1% per 10 Str. Which stat, though?


  • Atom Smasher + Static Smasher;
    • Receives Static Charge scaling; uses your Primary weapon damage only;
      • 37-55% for Static Smash
      • 43-70% for Atom Smasher
    • Both skills scale ‘+1% per x Str’ to give Strength builds an incentive to use the skill. These values roughly match the current ones for Atom/Static (for sake of the example). Whilst buffing the more defensive builds, with little Strength, it also Strength builds an incentive to invest in the stat.


  • Fireball;
    • Move it to Dex, and bring it ~on par with Plasma Bolt; or make it cost less EP but less damage.
      • BMs have Overload and Plasma Rain that works with Dex, but only Overload needs a Staff. This would give them a viable Staff build consisting of Fireball + Overload. Unlike TMs, they would be unable to loop these skills due to the requirement on Parasite, and EP control being inferior to that of TMs.


  • Massacre;
    • Either uses the same concept as Berzerker, Bludgeon and Double Strike or giving it a fixed lifesteal of 30% like other Ultimates.
      • Essentially, it's either sticking to the pure damage concept or bringing it closer to other Ultimates (by giving it an effect).


    Numbers are currently placeholders. If we do the % change with Melee skills (Zerker, Bludgeon and DS), we would make sure it doesn't end up in a nerf across the board - if anything, it'd nerf builds which have too little Strength to meet the old value (before the base % was lowered) which would probably be build under ~40 Strength. Do not focus on the numbers; focus on the concept.

    In addition, what we will not do is:
    • Return Guns back to Strength.
    • Return Strength progression to how it was prior to the change.
      • However, this does not mean we cannot buff the progression by a little bit - most likely at the final DR tier (85+ Strength).


    This thread is specifically for Strength related changes, and it's not everything we are currently discussing. We are aware of other issues, such as some Bots not being as effective as they used to be in the past, some skills not being as useful anymore; but not necessarily underpowered, etc. By making Strength builds even more viable (without making them too strong again), we can increase variety and not break balance - avoiding the need to do any major nerfs.



    • Cloaked_Shadow -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 16:28:58)

    So now a guy with level 1 berzerker gets hit even more? Low levels sir...



    Rogue Ninja -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 16:30:56)

    quote:



    Massacre;
    Either uses the same concept as Berzerker, Bludgeon and Double Strike or giving it a fixed lifesteal of 30% like other Ultimates.
    Essentially, it's either sticking to the pure damage concept or bringing it closer to other Ultimates (by giving it an effect).


    Same concept as non-ultimate skills? So you mean it could be used with rage? Is that what you're trying to say? (I might be mistaken)
    How about giving it an effect that will make it the best pure damage ultimate by adding either 30% Critical or 20% Defense/Resistance ignore? (Kind of what Surgical does)
    I think it would be useless giving it 30% lifesteal because they could already do that with Mark of Blood which is only temporary for 3 turns.



    Cloaked_Shadow -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 16:45:03)

    @NINJA EP costs for MOB. Crit would be pointless if it didn't. Def ignore-we already got cheap shot.

    Still can't do a massacre on 7 because you'd HAVE to do MOB if you want to use 500 energy for it in 7... 710 Energy if MOB on 7... :/



    Mother1 -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 16:46:25)

    @ Rouge ninja

    BH can but CH can't but even so I am personally against giving massacre life steal because "The other moves have it so by default this move should have it as well." Way too many balances changes have been made by that argument, and as a result classes are losing what makes them different and they feel the same.

    On topic

    I remember some time ago someone suggested making fireball work with dex.

    Bad idea. If that is done then BM will have Fireball, overload, and plasma rain and the sidearm all powered by dex. It spells trouble with a capital T.



    shadow.bane -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 17:15:16)

    as for massacre give it a fix life steal as all ultimate cause if u treat it like berz and all other % str moves it will be a less ultimate

    as for dex scaling for fireball nope someone will do a build will 1 k ep rest to dex and 1 2 3 battle ends

    as for atom smasher and static smash yeah it's fine

    as scaling % for berz doubles strike and bludg = str merc is back with high dex high star no blocks op build like befor u just made it worst ! and if scales with str there wil be a slight % for it to block but even it will do HIGH damage if not block ! why not scale it with technology for a change so they invest some to tech and not make them op ?



    Rogue Ninja -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 17:22:54)

    @ Cloaked_Shadow True it does cost Energy Points for Mark of Blood, but having lifesteal on all ultimate feels like everything's the same. (Just my personal opinion)
    Cheapshot is a normal skill though, it's different than Massacare which is an ultimate skill.

    @ Mother1 Oh man, I keep forgetting Cyber Hunters exist.. Ugh, it's a trouble that one class has the same ultimate to the other which makes balance difficult.
    You do have a point that Cyber doesn't have any lifesteal moves, but looks like we do both agree personally that it can't have it at the same time.
    That's why I'm thinking it should have a plus for its unique damage only move.



    AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 17:29:49)

    Here's the only 2 I feel like I can comment on..

    quote:

    Berzerker, Bludgeon and Double Strike;
    Nerfing the base % by approx. 5%
    Add ‘+1% per x <Stat>’ scaling.
    The <stat> in question would either be Dex or Strength. If we go for Dex, scaling could be a bit faster (e.g. +1% per 7 Dex), whilst on Strength – since it already increases Primary damage – it would be something like +1% per 10 Str. Which stat, though?

    I like how you listened to the "Hybrid stats" and put it into your own terms. However I still feel % based skills need to be rethought. As for what your saying, Definitely scale with Dex.

    quote:


    Fireball;
    Move it to Dex, and bring it ~on par with Plasma Bolt; or make it cost less EP but less damage.
    BMs have Overload and Plasma Rain that works with Dex, but only Overload needs a Staff. This would give them a viable Staff build consisting of Fireball + Overload. Unlike TMs, they would be unable to loop these skills due to the requirement on Parasite, and EP control being inferior to that of TMs.

    Moving it to Dex is a great idea..makes a lot more sense. However your second suggestion "make it cost less EP but less damage" fixes nothing, it may cost less EP, but its damage is already too low...unless you mean MAJORLY reducing its EP cost and slightly reducing its damage output.


    Edit:
    quote:

    as for dex scaling for fireball nope someone will do a build will 1 k ep rest to dex and 1 2 3 battle ends

    Sounds perfect in theory, but your forgetting all the factors involved in a battle
    1. Energy control
    2.BM can't loop like other classes
    3.if they were to try and loop, parasite would require 42 support
    4. With minimal HP, and about 300 resistance, could be easy to force them to heal in 2 rounds.



    Ranloth -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 19:49:30)

    quote:

    So now a guy with level 1 berzerker gets hit even more? Low levels sir...

    Lower levels means less Str / Dex as it is. I don't see how it would make a huge difference there, considering they'd get maybe 2-5% damage increase with a respectable amount of Str / Dex. After the recent Str nerf, it's even less of an issue.
    quote:

    Same concept as non-ultimate skills? So you mean it could be used with rage? Is that what you're trying to say? (I might be mistaken)

    Same concept as Zerker and the bunch, meaning the % increase with Str or Dex. Otherwise it remains an Ultimate; 200 minimum damage, unblockable, etc.
    quote:

    Moving it to Dex is a great idea..makes a lot more sense. However your second suggestion "make it cost less EP but less damage" fixes nothing, it may cost less EP, but its damage is already too low...unless you mean MAJORLY reducing its EP cost and slightly reducing its damage output.

    No, I don't think of major cost decrease and minor damage. I'm talking the same concept as all Multis have recently received. Instead of focusing on numbers, don't - if we move it to a different stat, the numbers will be changed completely.
    quote:

    as scaling % for berz doubles strike and bludg = str merc is back with high dex high star no blocks op build like befor u just made it worst ! and if scales with str there wil be a slight % for it to block but even it will do HIGH damage if not block ! why not scale it with technology for a change so they invest some to tech and not make them op ?

    Why would I need Technology to swing a weapon? Strength gives me power, and Dexterity improves my accuracy - logically speaking
    speaking. In addition to that, Mercs can already do very good Tech builds whilst Dex doesn't improve anything for them (directly) hence why I was thinking Dex
    Dex. Old build would be back? Well, depending on the scaling, they'd probably get 8-10% more damage over the current base value, if we assume around 80-90 Dex. Would it be a big issue after the nerf to Strength, considering their damage would only be increased on these skills? On the other hand, making.it scale with Strength would mean they'd probably still have high Dex, but even higher Strength - so with slower Str scaling on skills, you would still get ~same damage % increase as you would with lower Dex.

    In regards to Fireball, I also had an idea to make BM's Multi unique and improve with Strength instead, since it doesn't require a Staff to use, but this would mean we need new skill art, code, etc. So it's not possible short-term, as much as I would like. Would work with Fireball change, but for now, if we keep Fireball on Str, we may resort to giving it a bonus effect on top of the damage, hoping it buffs the skill appropriately and makes it usable again. Differentiating it from Bludgeon, and all.

    And why choose between Strength and Dex? Because both go together in a Strength build. You can't have high Str and low Dex, because your attacks will likely get blocked, so choosing between them two stats works quite well. Right now, how fast it scales is the only issue - I don't want it to be too slow and not noticeable, but once high amounts of the given stat kick in, it may be a good idea to make it slow.
    The scaling would merely increase the incentive in investing in these stats, and partially reverse the effects of Strength nerf - because there are cases where we overshot nerfs, but reversing isn't the solution, either.



    AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 20:33:06)

    First I want to ask a question: Do you come up with these ideas yourself (i know you get basic ideas from the community, but i mean the ideas you have right now) or do you work with other people to figure them out?

    quote:

    BM's Multi unique and improve with Strength instead, since it doesn't require a Staff to use, but this would mean we need new skill art, code, etc. So it's not possible short-term, as much as I would like. Would work with Fireball change, but for now, if we keep Fireball on Str, we may resort to giving it a bonus effect on top of the damage, hoping it buffs the skill appropriately and makes it usable again. Differentiating it from Bludgeon, and all.


    I love this idea. I'd be ok with keeping Fireball with strength for now, and changing it to dex when we get a new multi for BM and make it scale with strength. I absolutely love anything that involves the creation of new skills.



    Ranloth -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 21:55:42)

    Ideas are very often borrowed from here, really. You guys often tell us what's wrong, and sometimes give us solutions. We then discuss them, test and adjust. In this case, I really want these changes to go through but I'm at the point where my feedback may not be enough - and these changes may seem small, but will have an impact. These ideas I've had in mind for quite a while now, some longer than the others.

    So the solution for Fireball, for now, would be giving an unique effect or? Its damage isn't actually that bad, considering it's close to Plasma Bolt. Abuse part of it seems ineffective, hence why it doesn't perform well - we can probably bump the cost down by a little, but it may not do much either. At the same time, if we give it a good effect and it actually works, changing the scaling and then playing with Multi's scaling could mean having to revamp two skills completely. New skills wouldn't be anytime soon, and I'd rather not wait until that happens either, because it only hinders the class.





    AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 22:08:57)

    quote:

    o the solution for Fireball, for now, would be giving an unique effect or?

    Hmm...puts the player's energy skill into cooldown?
    -Static Grenade for BH
    -Static Charge for CH
    -Battery backup for TM and TLM
    -Parasite for BM
    -Static smach for Merc

    Assuming they have the energy skill, if not..then no effect.

    Another idea would be that it has a x% chance to deal x% extra damage
    or your next attack will ignore x% defense/resistance

    quote:

    Its damage isn't actually that bad, considering it's close to Plasma Bolt.

    If an effect is added, I'm fine with the damage.
    However, allow me to point out that:
    Plasma Bolt increases with technology
    Technology increases resistance.

    Therefor, by investing points in technology you're gaining both plasma bolt damage and resistance.
    Meanwhile strength doesn't increase your defenses. Just the fireball's damage and primary.



    Ranloth -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 22:35:05)

    We cannot give it an effect which puts a skill into cooldown - it's essentially coding another skill, and for that, I'd rather it's done for overlapping ones first. However, we can give it EP burn based on damage dealt or total, one turn debuff (so you can take advantage of it next turn), HP regeneration is kind of overlapping a bit too much etc.

    Also, before you quote something out of context, do include all of it;
    quote:

    Its damage isn't actually that bad, considering it's close to Plasma Bolt. Abuse part of it seems ineffective, hence why it doesn't perform well
    I'm well aware of what each stat does in this aspect. We don't balance skills based on what stat they improve with - because changes to stats happen a lot, and with every small change to a stat, you would have to rebalance everything. I do understand your point, but it has no effect on Fireball's possible buff. Skills should be viable on its own, and further enhanced by your stats - not the other way round.


    Also, this is partially my way of getting the community involved in the balancing. I may not call the shots, but I can and.do put forward ideas, and feedback works here, especially when we do actually need it (unlike for minor changes).



    AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: Strength changes (6/15/2015 22:42:09)

    quote:

    we can give it EP burn based on damage dealt or total, one turn debuff

    Ha! I was actually thinking BOTH of those in my head. I like the EP burn better than the debuff though.

    I see what you mean about the stat comparison.

    quote:

    Also, this is partially my way of getting the community involved in the balancing.

    And I praise you for it.

    As for this:
    quote:

    Skills should be viable on its own, and further enhanced by your stats - not the other way round.

    I agree, which is why I think skills like artillery strike, overload, plasma rain, and multishot need to be reworked.



    shadow.bane -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 2:45:10)

    @ ranloth i was just goofing around cause making it scale with dex people will add dex = little bit a chance to block = op moving it to str = huge damage and blocks is broken in game if u noticed so either way it is op so tech was sarcastic



    The berserker killer -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 3:57:17)

    Make fireball scale with support, increase the dmg % on dbl strike/zerk/bludgeon, and give massacre lifesteal while increasing its damage also.


    You nerfed str way too much, no question about it. It seriously is best to return it back to normal. Your problem was botters and primary dmg, not strength in general



    Rogue Ninja -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 7:59:53)

    quote:

    Same concept as Zerker and the bunch, meaning the % increase with Str or Dex. Otherwise it remains an Ultimate; 200 minimum damage, unblockable, etc.


    @ Ranolth I see, that's an interesting concept but I think I got a new suggestion that is better for the Massacre Ultimate.

    Note: This is just an example

    Massacre

    Unleash a fury of blade strikes upon an enemy, by dealing massive damage by a percent of primary damage; cannot deal critical hit

    ^ This works like the core skill called "Energy Shot" or "Energy Storm", but works vice versa. It reduces health instead of energy.

    Energy required: 320 (+30 per level)

    Weapon required: Wrist Blade

    Stat required: 24 (+2 per level)

    Level required: 1 (+1 per level)

    Improves with: None

    Warm Up: 3

    Cool Down: 3

    Level 1 30% Primary Damage

    Level 2 34% Primary Damage

    Level 3 38% Primary Damage

    Level 4 42% Primary Damage

    Level 5 46% Primary Damage

    Level 6 48% Primary Damage

    Level 7 52% Primary Damage

    Level 8 56 % Primary Damage

    Level 9 60% Primary Damage

    Level 10 64% Primary Damage

    Extra Note: I know it sounds stupid but I removed the critical chance so it won't get overpowered. The percent of the primary damage is enough I think, but feel free to give me your opinion about it

    *Updated



    shadow.bane -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 9:25:27)

    ^ berz does more % damage lol this is useless even with critical hit it wont count as an ultimate skill ... maybe if u raise it to 150 % more damage with 30 % life steal is good enough for an ultimate . ninja delete ur post or edit it cause its something people will laugh at ... ur suggestion is just 1.5 bludgeon ... not good enough for an ultimate ...



    Rogue Ninja -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 10:16:14)

    quote:

    ^ berz does more % damage lol this is useless even with critical hit it wont count as an ultimate skill ... maybe if u raise it to 150 % more damage with 30 % life steal is good enough for an ultimate . ninja delete ur post or edit it cause its something people will laugh at ... ur suggestion is just 1.5 bludgeon ... not good enough for an ultimate ...


    @ shadow.bane It seems you haven't paid attention and only checked with the number of percent for damage. It's suppose to work like the core skill called "Energy Shot" or "Energy Storm". It reduces their energy by the percentage of primary damage, but works vice verse which takes health instead and that's why by removing critical hit to balance it. I guess my explanation isn't enough so I'll add up some changes. Thanks for the feedback though, much appreciated.



    Ranloth -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 11:25:46)

    As long as we get the general concept, numbers aren't necessary - because we would adjust them. What Rogue Ninja means by x% Primary damage to HP is: say 50% of 500 Primary damage, means you'd deal 250 damage to HP directly; no defenses would be applied.

    So instead of dealing damage and then having defenses applied before final damage, it would deal damage to HP directly.



    AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 11:31:22)

    quote:

    What Rogue Ninja means by x% Primary damage to HP is: say 50% of 500 Primary damage, means you'd deal 250 damage to HP directly; no defenses would be applied.


    I'm not too familiar with them cores, so I had no idea what he meant. But that sounds like a GREAT idea Rogue Ninja.
    This would make the skill really useful against tanks, while probably not against offensive builds. I love situational skills.
    Maybe make the % scale with support or dex to help make it more useful for non-strength bounties?



    Lord Machaar -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 11:36:57)

    Frenzy also has received an unnecessary nerf from the change of strenght scale progression.



    Ranloth -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 11:42:07)

    It would be weaker if you compare raw damage before defenses vs. damage to HP directly, but once defenses are applied, it would be on par BUT have pros and cons in various situations; more effective on low HP builds with high defenses, and less effective on high HP builds. Similar to Poison, but damage would be dealt in one turn instead. It's not impossible to code either, because it's essentially an attack which ignores all defenses.

    We would probably give it scaling to increase % too, and the most fitting stat is Strength. Not only it would be a more unique Ultimate, we could buff build variety through it. Even with nerfed Strength, it doesn't necessarily mean it needs buffing, when there are other ways of indirectly buffing it and increase variety at the same time. Now is the time we focus on some variety, like the current ideas proposed + ones posted here, because balance is good enough to allow this. Whilst it won't be perfect variety, making the gameplay a bit more interesting can't ever hurt.

    Frenzy? When we changed how the skill works to what it is now, we considered Dex scaling on it, to increase % but held back because we didn't know how much impact the it will have in PvP, and overshooting is always a bad idea - only results in nerfs and players start complaining, too. I can bring it up again - although, like other skills, it would likely take a small hit to base % to receive stat scaling. In the long run? It would be a buff.



    AQWorldsFarmer -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 11:50:04)

    @Ranloth
    While we're at it, do you have any ideas on how to bring back tech abuse? (A long forgotten build)

    quote:

    Frenzy? When we changed how the skill works to what it is now, we considered Dex scaling on it, to increase % but held back because we didn't know how much impact the it will have in PvP, and overshooting is always a bad idea - only results in nerfs and players start complaining, too. I can bring it up again - although, like other skills, it would likely take a small hit to base % to receive stat scaling. In the long run? It would be a buff.

    The concept behind frenzy is almost "the perfect balance" notice I said concept. It does tend to only benefit strength builds, with a tiny buff to other builds. Giving it s SMALL dex scaling could help. I would suggest tech scaling..but that would just be too much. Also TLM needs more incentive to invest in dexterity.



    Ranloth -> RE: Strength changes (6/16/2015 11:58:58)

    Tech abuse would work if there was less damage given from Focus (to Bots), and more coming from Tech. It should also encourage build variety because Focus would have less effect on Bots, thus the need to go for even stats (especially at lower level) would be lesser. That's speaking across the board; Tech abuse works for some classes.



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