Overload: Searching for a build! (Full Version)

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Stonehawk -> Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 11:26:36)

All skills can have a consistent build that works with it, except fireball, which they lowered its cost, for having no effect and requiring a staff. Can anyone tell me a consistent build with the new Overload? It must be useful somehow, because I don't see any reason to make a skill unusable.



.Lord Ginger. -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 13:01:25)

Supp/str BM? Fireball, overload? Shields would be strong, so would intim... But I doubt parasite could beat tank anything...



Stonehawk -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 13:25:15)

Parasite won't give enough energy back... But I forgot to mention I was talking about tech mages... nice one though, for BMs!



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 14:10:55)

A focus build using supercharge and overload still seems to work for me. If you have azreal will the build can do stun forced strike then supercharge so your not as at risk of energy drain



comicalbike -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 14:58:23)

yes you are correct



Darkwing -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 16:16:51)

I don't know, with a focus support-ish build I can't get more then 560 damage from overlord at max level. On a tank, it's nothing.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 16:57:30)

Overload is used for stun whereas supercharge gun and bot are your main damage output.

Stay flexible in your thinking overwise every balance change will ruin you



Stonehawk -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 21:57:31)

overload is for stun, but it's a luck shot that every class has with average damage. What I'm trying to show is how it became so bad, even if I use a focus build with high all weapon stats on support and stuff, it's still not even near 600 at max, while all classes can have a good damage on stun skill. It was not made to stun only, but also do some damage, now its purpose is gone for Mages. Even Mercenaries' stun is better in all aspects: improves with strength but increases chance to stun as you lvl it up AND ignores some defense AND has lower costs.

In the current damage for overload it should cost 100 energy at lvl 1 or increase energy cost by 10 or 15 for each lvl instead of 20. This is because overload has been nerfed before for it being a powerful skill that improves with a defensive stat. Now that it scales with support instead of dex, the skill's nerfs should be reverted.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 22:58:03)

If this was before the ridiculous strength nerfs a support-centric BM might be viable, but since intimidate is almost always a useless skill now I can't say it's viable.

For TM it might be a bit better since it has synergy with malfunction also scaling with support. Despite being changed up and being less usable I am glad that the dev team is paying more attention to skills that scale with support that aren't just utility ones.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/18/2015 23:29:47)

quote:

Can anyone tell me a consistent build with the new Overload? It must be useful somehow, because I don't see any reason to make a skill unusable.

It doesn't have to be, because testers/balancers did it for a reason, which is nerfing high dex tech mages, period. They don't care what are the consequences of that on other classes, and that's what I've told OWA earlier, there are two ways to balance the game, whether devs make new skills/cores for example, katherax's bot when strenght builds were dominating, or the second way, which dealing with what we have, by modifying values/numbers. The first way is impossible, since cores are hard to make and devs are busy. So testers didn't choose, but they were obliged to pick the second way, which produces a lot, and a lot of collateral damages.

Engine limitation plays a role here too, sure overload skill used by tech mages is the same one that is used by blood mages, but that doesn't mean they should be totally the same, and here I'm talking about requirements, and with what the skill improves, clearly, overload was OP when it was used by high dex TM players, but on the other hand, it was balanced when it was used by high dex BM builds. Now the solution could have been simple if there weren't such engine limitations, and overload's skill that is used by tech mages can improve with support, and overload's skill of bms can remain as it was. It seems illogical but that's balance.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 0:54:15)

At level forty here is how the three set damage stuns compare
Overload VS Plasma Grenade
  • Both skills gain 20 damage per level
  • Overload does 3 more damage at all levels with 24* in there scaling stat
  • Plasma does 2 more damage at all levels with 45 stat points
  • Plasma does 31 more damage at all levels with 173 stat points**

Verdict: Plasma Grenade has better scaling allowing it to match Overload at 34 stat points and to pass it 38 stat points

Overload VS Stun Grenade
  • Stun Grenade gains 15 damage per level.
  • Overload gains 20 damage per level.
  • Stun grenade is more powerful until level 6 with 24 stat points.
  • Stun Grenade is more powerful until level 7 with 45 stat points
  • Stun Grenade is more power at all levels with 173 stat points

Verdict: Overload is more powerful at max than Stun Grenade and only at 119 stat points does stun grenade match overload in power and it passes it in power at 122 stat points

Stun Grenade VS Plasma Grenade
  • Stun Grenade gains 15 damage per level.
  • Plasma Grenade gains 20 damage per level.
  • Stun Grenade is more powerful until level 5 with both skills equal at level 6 with 24 stat points
  • Stun Grenade is more powerful until level 5 with both skills equal at level 6 with 45 stat points
  • Stun Grenade is more powerful until level 5 with both skills equal at level 6 with 173 stat points

Verdict: Both skills have the same stat scaling making Plasma Grenade the stronger option above level six.

Overall verdict: If your goal is to find the most valuable stun skill to max it is Plasma grenade which consistently out does the other two skills. Overload is better than Stun Grenade comparing skill to skill; however, if you are looking for a cheap stun Stun Grenade does more damage at the lower levels and all skills cost the same energy. Stun and Plasma grenade also have offense moves they synergise with in the form of multi shot and EMP respectively. Overload while synergising with many more skills are limited to the buffs and debuffs had by BM and TM which in the current meta really aren't all that useful for a stun build.
Maul operates on an entirely different mechanic and I can't think of a fair ground to compare the skill to any of these. It has a variable stun chance with the damage depending on your weapon and ignores defense. Aside from it being blockable I would wager it is objectively the best stun in the game.

TL;DR At the level cap a max or near max Overload is the second most powerful of the three set damage stuns but it lacks any useful synergies making it more suited to a support role than a build definer
*Cyber hunter has 24 base tech making it the highest starting stat for a stun move to scale on
**W/O modifiers all point in support on TM. BM can reach 174



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 1:27:34)

quote:

TL;DR At the level cap a max or near max Overload is the second most powerful of the three set damage stuns but it lacks any useful synergies making it more suited to a support role than a build definer


Given the reduced stun chance it doesn't even fit the support role unless it is meant to do damage. And in TM and BM's case nothing else really does damage aside from the aux attack, and after facing multiple different support TMs their burst is fairly easy to survive with proper investment in some resistance buffs.

I am fine with the support scaling but this skill (and all stun skills) really needed their secondary effect (in this case, stuns) to be completely changed to be more reliable and easier to use with other builds.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 1:41:07)

@OWA:
I'm not really a big fan of isolating skills/cores/etc.., and then comparing them between each other, there are a lot of things to take in consideration, for instance, if you compare EMP grenade of CHs, with atom smasher, EMP is 10 times better, doesn't require the class's special weapon, improves with technology, takes huge amount of energy, on the other hand we got atom smasher, which requires a club to be used, improves with skill level, which means, a level 1 EMP grenade can drain as much energy as level 10 atom smasher, so far, anyone would say that atom smasher needs a buff, but here is the problem, we didn't compare these skills within the context, which is, the skill tree.

Same thing can be said when we are talking about overload, when you compare overload and stun grenade, are you comparing TM's overload or BM's overload, generally, they are the both skills, but the difference is, TMs have better energy-skills, hands down, BM's don't, in fact, parasite isn't capable of giving enough energy to split it between using overload and healing, on the other hand, TM's have great energy sources, which allow them to spam this skill. From my experience, I fought both high dex TMs and high dex BMs, high dex TMs were 10 times harder than high dex BMs, and within the context again, beside TM's great energy-wise skills, TMs have technician, which improves with dex.

I think balancers/testers should balance shared skills with a huge amount of attention, I mean balancing frenzy is easy, since it is used by one class, but when we say overload, stun grenade, etc... etc... these skills are shared by 2 classes or even more, which makes it harder to balance things out.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 1:57:53)

quote:

I'm not really a big fan of isolating skills/cores/etc..


This is a good point. If we are simply attempting to balance things from a view comparing all similar skills directly to each other, the the balance team's first target goal should have been to try and make all stats as equal as possible, HP, EP, Strength, Dex, Tech, and Support. And IIRC none of these stats have ever been anywhere near equilibrium in the history of ED.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 2:11:29)

My main point was to counter Stonehawk saying all classes outside of the mages have good damage on stun skills which Merc aside all stun skills are looking at similar damage.

As for overlapping skills I really don't think there should be any of them. Plasma Grenade and Overload are exactly the same skill but because they aren't the same skill in the database the numbers can be tweaked independently. If we can make more of the exact same skills and work out from there I really think it would be easier for the balance team because there would be less butterfly effects



Darkwing -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 5:37:20)

First of all, make sure to say that overlord needs class weapon, plasma grenade and stun grenade don't need class weapon, so you get more stats and damage from a asword.


Also, stun grenade and plasma grenade improve with the stats that increase your defense, the most used stats. If you spam support to get high damage overlord, you will have butter like defense.



Illuminist -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 8:30:15)

Ya, worthless



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 9:27:01)

I have to go to work as I am typing this but I just want to ask how Stun mage stacks up to the other support builds and see if there is anything that those builds use to be successful that can be translated to the mage build



Stonehawk -> RE: Overload: Searching for a build! (7/19/2015 9:30:13)

quote:

Ya, worthless


He noticed.

@OWA

I'm not really saying it has the weakest damage with the same amount of stat, but if you compare the situations and build possibilities, you can see it's impossible to make overload hit more than 600 at max and still have enough defense to survive 5 turns, while all other stun skills improves with either dexterity or technology, and both can protect you.

You can't compare stun grenade at 99 dexterity and overload at 99 support. The more you have support, the less you have technology. In other words, easier to be deflected. And to make things worse, EVEN if your opponent is sleeping (this is what the animation suggests) he can still block and deflect you. Not to mention the chance to stun is lower too. The heaviest harmed class was obviously Tech Mage. If I ask you for a build with a good stun in another class, you can easily say "just spam the stat and stun is powerful even at lvl 1". Now try Tech Mage and check Overload damage on a common build.

No, malfunction won't help at all. First of all, everyone will surely shield. Second, I've fought a tech mage with tons of support (overload was still weak) and he malf'd me. Even without using technician (I'm still a TM) I deflected all his auxilliary's attack, and I fought him 5 times in a row.

I just think they nerfed overload to ashes because it had been trouble for too many time. Now I only see a reason to use a skill point in it to unlock fire scythe, super charge and plasma rain.

Now comparing classes that has attacking skills that improves with support, if you spam this stat, these are the skills that can be part of a build:
1- Tactical Mercenary:
Field Commander to give strength to yourself or an ally
Artillery Strike, good damage and hits both targets if you're in a 2 vs 2.
Poison Grenade, the stats doesn't matter, no requirements.
Blood shield will give high resistance. (rarely helps since both your defenses are too low)

2- Mercenary:
Artillery Strike
Blood Commander. You will have not only high support, but also high strength and lifesteal
Adrenaline, to rage really fast, also scales with support.
Hybrid armor: increases both defenses, can make you last longer in some situations.

3- Tech Mage:
Malfunction, to highly decrease the opponent's tech.
Matrix defense, it will give 300+ defense for very few turns.
Overload, high (?) damage and a chance to stun.




Tech Mage is totally ineffective, if you want to try higher support, which means overload is gone forever.


quote:

First of all, make sure to say that overlord needs class weapon, plasma grenade and stun grenade don't need class weapon, so you get more stats and damage from a asword.


Also, stun grenade and plasma grenade improve with the stats that increase your defense, the most used stats. If you spam support to get high damage overlord, you will have butter like defense.


This is exactly what I was trying to say. Not only weapon requirements, but the costs were increased before (it was 300 max), the damage was lowered, and after all those changes stats scaling changed to support, killing the skill definitely.



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