RE: why support builds are OP

RE: why support builds are OP (Full Version)

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doomknightgold AQW -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/25/2015 9:14:38)
Support builds ARE strong,idk why people defending it,lower levels will especially have disadvantage against it like seriously Im talking mainly about the mercenary,I see the same pattern every time with this cheap build,that's why alot of lower levels are using it You know why? Because it works effectively cause its strong< They would have tons of energy supplies which is hard to prevent them from using the multi twice and we have to focus on their aux and rage too Stats requirement is nice to stop them from abusing it.

Satafou -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/25/2015 10:50:57)
Requirements will not stop people from using support builds. The only thing that would actually stop people using support builds is unneeded damage nerfs or additional cooldowns.

Exploding Penguin -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/25/2015 14:28:43)
quote: Im talking mainly about the mercenary,I see the same pattern every time with this cheap build,that's why alot of lower levels are using it You know why? Because it works effectively cause its strong< No because then everybody would have been playing focus tank TLM in Delta where it easily had a 95%+ win ratio on even a decent player yet barely anybody used that class. People like to click the same 3-5 buttons in the exactly same place each battle and do fights quickly. If a build meets these requirements, all that's left is to choose the one out of them all with the highest win rate. And support is one of them. Just because it's the highest doesn't mean it's still a good win rate in comparison to other builds.

RaXZerGamingZ -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/25/2015 16:54:57)
artillery strike should have a stat requarement , thats how it should be fixed , like on level 10 it should have 42 tech needed

Mother1 -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/25/2015 17:11:21)
@ Raxzergaming None of the multi's have a stat requirement at the moment. Also a Tech stat requirement wouldn't even bother most support merc's seeing as many of them use technology so they can have a better chance of connecting with their aux's anyways.

Thylek Shran -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/28/2015 19:35:41)
Conclusion: Not support builds are OPed generally, its only Artillery Strike which is OPed as it does increase with support (critical hits in 2vs2) and does the most damage of all multi and support damage skills. You can see this in my skill comparision table. Overload which is on the lower end seems to be underpowered since it is no longer increasing with dexterity. Its should receive a buff in damage or stun rate. Artillery Strike vs. Overload: 328 damage vs. 1 stun effect (IF it is a 25% chance) Multi-Shot vs. Overload: 272 damage vs. 1 stun effect (IF it is a 25% chance) Plasma Rain vs. Overload: 216 damage vs. 1 stun effect (IF it is a 25% chance) In most battle situations pure damage does own the stun effect now. The chance to stun can drop down to 15% (?) if the stun user has less support than the opponent.

Lord Machaar -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/28/2015 21:24:48)
^ I can't frankly understand what is the relation between overload and the OP? The OP clearly talks about how support builds are taking over 2vs2, since I frankly think such builds are useless in 1vs1. Some skills are meant to be nerfed, that's it, if we are going to speak about each useless skill, we should do that subjectively not objectively, not because you are a TM, you think that overload is the only useless skill in the game. The skill was meant to get nerfed, I more worried about skills that aren't and they are already doing bad, e.g. adrenaline rush and static smash, fireball, etc... TM as a class is doing good compared to others, I would say let's balance the game first before speaking about third option builds of "already doing good" classes.

RaXZerGamingZ -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/28/2015 22:24:31)
problems are support gives too many benefitsthat you dont need defences , first strike , higher crit chance , more aux damage , its too much , some of those like first strike should be added to a seperate stat like " luck " for axample

Mother1 -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/28/2015 22:32:05)
^ LOL you aren't the first person to suggest that just because bad luck hit you due to a certain build.

Thylek Shran -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/29/2015 13:03:24)
quote: TM as a class is doing good compared to others, I would say let's balance the game first before speaking about third option builds of "already doing good" classes. We have to talk about builds to be more precise. The Strenght-HP-Assimilation-Malf-Bludgeon-Firescythe TM build is OPed while the most other builds are just about average. For balance its necessary to see the whole picture and not just a little piece. To say that TMs are doing good is only true for some builds. This is because the skills in the TM skilltree are not in balance to each other. quote: problems are support gives too many benefitsthat you dont need defences , first strike , higher crit chance , more aux damage , its too much , some of those like first strike should be added to a seperate stat like " luck " for axample The sumary of those benefits are still not OPed. Else everyone would use a support build.

Lord Machaar -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/29/2015 14:11:17)
quote: We have to talk about builds to be more precise. The Strenght-HP-Assimilation-Malf-Bludgeon-Firescythe TM build is OPed while the most other builds are just about average. For balance its necessary to see the whole picture and not just a little piece. To say that TMs are doing good is only true for some builds. This is because the skills in the TM skilltree are not in balance to each other. So you do think that some TM builds are doing good, not just strenght but high dex and 5 focus too, yet you say we need to see the whole picture, sure, we see the whole picture, yet when you talk about a solution your interpretation says we need to fix overload, a skill that is used by TMs, and according to your "big picture", TMs are only a small portion of the big picture, though you think balancing one skill will fix all of this? Overload is not meant to work anymore, just like what happens with stun grenade for TLMs, if we are going to fix the big picture, we need to fix bigger problems rather than fixing secondary "skills" or meant-not-to-work skills.

Thylek Shran -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/29/2015 19:21:38)
I don`t think that the game mechanics will get changed fundamentaly as its very complicated. Also nobody does want to risk and have a second Omega. And I know that changing one skill does not fix everything but its the right way as you have to start somewhere. Overload is not in balance as it got nerfed when it did improve with Dexterity and then it got moved to Support which is a much weaker stat without buffing Overload much. I did show you, that in character level 40, Artillery Strike has alot more power than Overload and Plasma Rain at the same energy cost but you keep ignoring this. Maybe because you don´t want to see your own class (TLM) getting nerfed, Lord Machaar ? If Stun Grenade is UPed it has to get buffed. However I play TM at most since years and know this class very well so I concentrate on it first. If you know TLM well, its up to you to name unbalance there. Personally I experienced that TLM is very strong so when you want to buff Stun Grenade for them maybe one of their other skills deserves a nerf. Blood Shield and Frenzy come to my mind. Also Mineral-, Hybrid-, and Plasma Armor are not debuffable by Azrael´s Borg which is highly unlogical even that I know the named reasons from the devs.

.Lord Ginger. -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/29/2015 19:51:25)
Thylek, it's an ARMOR, it's logical

Thylek Shran -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/29/2015 20:56:48)
No its a defensive skill like Energy Shield and Matrix.

Mother1 -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/29/2015 21:12:43)
@ Lord Ginger The real reason they made those three skills immune to the Azreal borg and Azreal aux was because they were originally passives that weren't affected by those items. People in the forums voiced how they fear these moves would become victims of these items and how strength would run rampant (advert it did for a while) so to calm the masses they made those three skills keep their immunity not because they are armors.

Lord Machaar -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/30/2015 14:23:24)
quote: I did show you, that in character level 40, Artillery Strike has alot more power than Overload and Plasma Rain at the same energy cost but you keep ignoring this. You are comparing the incomparable. overload as a skill is meant to deal damage plus a 25% to stun the opponent, I think you forgot to add this to your calculations, as for multi shots, they are meant solely to deal damage. Overload deals less damage for a reason, the chance to stun the opponent is not something to forget about, overload like all other stun-based skills deal less damage, stun grenade, plasma grenade...

Thylek Shran -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/31/2015 20:33:48)
^ Your are wrong as they are comparable and I compared them. The stun chance has been included into my calculation and I remarked this. The calculation is pretty simple with a 25% stun chance. You take the damage difference of the skills and multiply it with 4. That means there are 3 moves without stun and 1 move with stun = 25% stun chance. So its the damage difference for every move (4x) vs. the stun effect which basically is only a second attack now.

Lord Machaar -> RE: why support builds are OP (8/31/2015 21:27:36)
The table you gave shows nothing abnormal http://home.arcor.de/eqiven/EpicDuel/SupportSkills.htm First of all you neglected the fact that plasma rain/multi shot/overload as skills can be used with less energy (- 10 ep compared to artillery strike), yet I'm not saying that support builds don't need a nerf, I mean sure they need if testing shows that even though I don't think the problem is in the build itself, since this build is effective against low - hp builds including 5 focus, and since these builds can't use nothing but infernal android which fails miserably against support builds, I think the problem lays here, once 5 focus build users can use another robot beside infernal android, e.g pyro or blood hawk or abyss bot or yeti bot, without getting punished by other 5 focus users who use infernal android, I think then these builds will encounter support builds. But since all 5 focus builds are obliged to use infernal android, they will find difficulties against support builds, ofcourse that depends on each class, since BH 5 focus can do good compared to TLM/TM. Going back to your "Comparison", if you are going to compare overload to multi skills, then let me compare stun grenade to double strike/bludgeon and cheap shot... that's your logic here, and then you conclude such skill is imbalanced, if you are going to say that overload is imbalanced, you need to compare it to stun grenade, plasma grenade and maul, instead of comparing it to skills of other types and trying with all means to convince us that it needs a buff. I mean you just didn't compare these skills solely from their skills trees, you even compared skills of different types, artillery strike improves with support giving it a crit chance yet creating a glass-cannon build, on the other hand multi shot and plasma rain improve with dexterity, which means automatically such builds will encounter artillery strike, and if you play 2vs2 you will see that artillery strike is so weak against such builds. Period. Overload is another story, overload as a skill used to work with dex, devs didn't change anything about the skill, they changed with what it improves, and I already explained, such thing is considered as a balancing method AKA changing a skill with what it improves, for instance, we can't find a support BM/BH/CH build, want to nerf a skill of one of these classes? make it improve with support or give it support requirement, for instance, static grenade and parasite. Same thing went for overload, the skill was meant to get nerfed, period, if there is something to get balanced, I would say 2vs2/jugg underdog mode, overlapping skills, merc's static smash, etc.. instead of focusing on skills that aren't meant to work, we don't need to screw the balance for such things, which sadly our testers like to do, they just need to hear it for someone and then blame it on players for screwing the game.

Thylek Shran -> RE: why support builds are OP (9/1/2015 0:29:23)
quote: First of all you neglected the fact that plasma rain/multi shot/overload as skills can be used with less energy (- 10 ep compared to artillery strike) Because of this I extrapolated the different skill damage tables to make them compareable. -10 EP means about nothing. quote: yet I'm not saying that support builds don't need a nerf, I mean sure they need if testing shows that even though ED is a pure math game. I already showed that Artillery Strike is OPed by comparing it to the other multi and support damage skills. The practical test is only based on this mathematical fact. An argument could be that mercs dont have a debuff like Malfunction and Smoke Screen but those skills are not very powerfull anymore at level 40. When following that argumentation Intimidate has to get removed. Only then the bonus power of Artillery Strike has an entitlement. But it would be more logical to nerf Artillery Strike as a removed Intimitdate would cause alot other balance problems. quote: since this build is effective against low - hp builds including 5 focus, and since these builds can't use nothing but infernal android which fails miserably against support builds The truth is that support builds often fail miserably against 5 focus builds with Infernal Android as Infernal Overload is very OPed when comparing it to other robots and damage skills. The critical hit (support) and stun skill chances are just way to low. It was a big mistake to nerf the stun rate of stun skills as they are now just like a second Plasma Bolt skill. There is no point for stun skills with such a low stun chance and damage which basically is only Overload as stun skills (Stun/Plasma Grenade) improving with Dexterity and Technology are more powerfull as Dexterity and Technology are more powerfull than Support. quote: But since all 5 focus builds are obliged to use infernal android, they will find difficulties against support builds, ofcourse that depends on each class, since BH 5 focus can do good compared to TLM/TM. Pyro Fly can work well too especially against support builds who are highly skill dependable but it is weaker than IA in average. Bounty Hunter is OPed because their energy control is concentrated on just 1 skill which does mean a free move for something else. TLM has the same problem like TM that their energy control is splitted into 2 skills and moves. However Frenzy is more powerfull than Assimilation as energy drain can be countered more easily than HP regeneration. Also the sumary of damage+HP+EP is usually higher. quote: Going back to your "Comparison", if you are going to compare overload to multi skills, then let me compare stun grenade to double strike/bludgeon and cheap shot... that's your logic here, and then you conclude such skill is imbalanced, if you are going to say that overload is imbalanced, you need to compare it to stun grenade, plasma grenade and maul, instead of comparing it to skills of other types and trying with all means to convince us that it needs a buff. Basically every skill should and could be compared to another one. I just see more relationship between multi and support damage/stun skills than between stun and low tiered percentual damage skills. Its up to you to compare Overload with Bludgeon, Double Strike and Cheap Shot. Im just to lazy for that now. :) I assume that a Bludgeon being used by a strenght build is alot more energy efficient than Overload being used by a support build. Even when including the block and critical hit chances. quote: Overload is another story, overload as a skill used to work with dex, devs didn't change anything about the skill, they changed with what it improves While moving it to Support they nerfed its damage with stat scaling and also nerfed the basic stun chance by 5% which is alot. This is a stun for every 3.3 skill uses vs 4 skill uses which is a nerf by 21% less stuns for using those skills (Overload, Plasma Grenade, Stun Grenade). Two weeks later they buffed Overload by 10 damage while also buffing the level scaling. All in all it was a pretty big nerf to Overload. July 17, 2015 Stat scaling: Dex → Support Stat scaling: 0.4 → 0.45 Base stun chance: 30% → 25% July 31, 2015 Damage: 170-350 → 180 → 360 Level scale: +1 damage per 0.44 levels → 0.4 levels (increased damage at level 40)

Lord Machaar -> RE: why support builds are OP (9/1/2015 7:37:58)
quote: ED is a pure math game. I already showed that Artillery Strike is OPed by comparing it to the other multi and support damage skills. The practical test is only based on this mathematical fact. An argument could be that mercs dont have a debuff like Malfunction and Smoke Screen but those skills are not very powerfull anymore at level 40. When following that argumentation Intimidate has to get removed. Only then the bonus power of Artillery Strike has an entitlement. But it would be more logical to nerf Artillery Strike as a removed Intimitdate would cause alot other balance problems. That's why I said earlier, you simply can not compare skills outside of the skill tree, some classes have good energy draining skills while some don't, TMs/BMs/Mercs have plasma canon/bunker (a direct damage dealing skill) while other 3 don't, some have 3 energy skills while some have 1. It is just not the mathematical side that matters, when you go down to testing, things change, for instance, some classes have better energy-control than others, and I'm here talking about TLMs/Mercs, if you are saying that artillery strike needs a nerf, well, we should see the big picture as you suggested earlier, and the big picture says, this is an overlapping skill, shared by 2 classes, 2 classes that have different access to energy therefore this will decide how much times this skill can be used, and since mercs' static smash is so lame, sometimes it drains 216 energy and gives back 170ish energy, I mean where in the world can a mercenary use artillery strike 2 times in one battle? Yet when we come to TLMs, their battery back up gives them the ability to do so. So if we are going to nerf artillery strike, we need to buff mercs first. This is just one reason why you can't just compare skills without thier skills tree and without testing, there is another side of this, if they made overload work with strenght, would we be having this conversation right now? I mean it is a matter of stat also, if they set overload to work with strenght, the skill would be just fine since the stat itself works just good with a tech mage as a class. You can't neglect this, the problem is not in the skill itself, it is in with what it improves, and if testers/balancers wanted it to work, they would've just make it improve with tech or str, but they don't want it work. If we are going to conclude that X skill needs a buff just by comparing it to another Y skill because they both improve with the same stat, I mean I'm telling you that even if you want to compare 2 skills of the type you need to go through a number of stages, including if the skill is an overlapping skill, how the skill works within the skill tree, acess to energy of each class that uses that skill and many many other things. I mean no wonder why the game's balance is screwed up, since Rabblefroth took over, he only cared about mathematical side of the problem, each week a patchnote with a serie of value tweaking, for instance look how strenght was fixed, sure TM strenght build is doing fine but what about other strenght builds of other classes? quote: Pyro Fly can work well too especially against support builds who are highly skill dependable but it is weaker than IA in average. Bounty Hunter is OPed because their energy control is concentrated on just 1 skill which does mean a free move for something else. TLM has the same problem like TM that their energy control is splitted into 2 skills and moves. However Frenzy is more powerfull than Assimilation as energy drain can be countered more easily than HP regeneration. Also the sumary of damage+HP+EP is usually higher. Pyro fly is better than IA against support builds, I'm talking from experience, disable any skill, whether poison / multi / battery back up,you will end up winning because you will whether forbid your opponent from using multi more than once and also forbidding him from using poison against you, a skill that is usually used after you use health medic. IA doesn't work always why? - IA's reaches its full capacity in the 8th turn, you can't really survive to that turn. - IA's damage can be encountered if the opponent has 10% more resistance than defense, so even at the 6th turn, IA's nuke will only deal a damage equal to any normal energy damage of a bot.

Exploding Penguin -> RE: why support builds are OP (9/1/2015 15:16:42)
quote: Bounty Hunter is OPed because their energy control is concentrated on just 1 skill which does mean a free move for something else I think you mean they're at a disadvantage because they only have 1 skill related to energy control which puts them at a slight disadvantage compared to other classes in an energy-centric meta.

Lord Machaar -> RE: why support builds are OP (9/1/2015 15:46:41)
Not really, as 5 focus BHs are doing good, even better with +30 ranks, since if we break things down, we will have 3 classes with 1 energy move, mercenaries, bounty hunters and blood mages, bounty hunters have the best between the three. 3 classes will be left, TLMs with 2 main energy moves, 1 of them is forbidden since it is the only energy move in the universe of ED that requires a club so atleast TMs can drain up to 273, better than mercs, so I won't really call it a weak class concerning energy draining, and CHs have an okay energy-wise moves, you won't make them work if you aren't experienced enough. So we will be left with TM, which I think as a class, can do better against BHs, I never tested this, but in my head, and from my experience, a strenght TM can drain up to 273 energy, and a BH can drain up to 333 energy, so I think it is a close call.

Thylek Shran -> RE: why support builds are OP (9/1/2015 21:01:08)
TLM is the only class with 3 energy moves: - Frenzy - Battery Backup - Atom Smasher (Club) TLM does not need Atom Smasher at all as Frenzy alone seems to be more powerfull than Assimilation when including all factors. Just use a club if you also want to have an energy draining skill. You can´t have it all for free. Also Piston Punch could compensate that which is the intention of this core. Energy flow move factors: - Energy drain - Energy regeneration - Damage - Rage gain - Health regeneration (Frenzy) - Energy cost (Atom Smasher) Only strenght builds can overuse Assimilaton. Most other TM builds can drain much less energy than 273 (273+137=410). A support build with 20 Strenght can only drain 170 (170+85=255). This skill is very broken now. It could be good for build diversity and balance if all energy flow skills would not improve with stats. Nowadays alot player create their builds around the energy flow skills that improve with stats to make them more powerfull: TM - Assimilation: Strenght -> Strenght build BH - Static Grenade: Support -> 5 Focus build Merc - Static Smash: Strenght -> 5 focus or strenght build with Blood Commander CH - Static Charge: Support -> 5 focus build The main reason why the most BHs use a 5 focus build is that their energy flow is dependant on support. Support builds do not work well for them but 5 focus with about 60-80 support does. They then can keep Reflex Boost and Energy Shield at low levels and low energy cost which does mean more skill points and Energy Points for other skills. @Exploding Penguin quote: I think you mean they're at a disadvantage because they only have 1 skill related to energy control which puts them at a slight disadvantage compared to other classes in an energy-centric meta. I mean ADVANTAGE. A single Static Grenade can be energy wise nearly as powerfull as Battery Backup + Assimilation together. Also check above for "Energy flow move factors". While the TM also will do some damage (85% Strike; block?) and gain rage points with Assimilation the BH could do a Strike as second move which would have nearly the same effect but with more damage. This would make it pretty even. BUT as most BHs are 5 focus now they would use their robot or something else that is alot more powerfull than Strike. This does lead to an unfair advantage for BHs and is the reason why 5 focus BHs are more powerfull than the most or all other classes with 5 focus. Examples for the energy part: Level 40 BH, 70 Support, - Static Grenade Level 10: 347+226=573 Level 40 TM, 70 Strenght - Battery Backup Level 10: 333 - Assimilation Level 10: 220+110=330 Sum: 663 573 (1 move) vs. 663 (2 moves) Difference: 90 Energy Points ------------------------------------------------ Level 40 BH, 100 Support, - Static Grenade Level 10: 396+258=654 Level 40 TM, 100 Strenght - Battery Backup Level 10: 333 - Assimilation Level 10: 250+125=375 Sum: 708 654 (1 move) vs. 708 (2 moves) Difference: 54 Energy Points ------------------------------------------------ Level 40 BH, 150 Support, - Static Grenade Level 10: 470+235=776 Level 40 TM, 150 Strenght - Battery Backup Level 10: 333 - Assimilation Level 10: 300+150=450 Sum: 783 776 (1 move) vs. 783 (2 moves) Difference: 7 Energy Points

Mother1 -> RE: why support builds are OP (9/1/2015 21:13:18)
@ Thylek Shran No one uses class weapons these days due to the following reasons 1) The moves for most of the classes that are weapon locked are either A) not worth it due to how badly they been nerfed B) The stat they work with has been nerfed so hard that no one dares use them 2) Swords give more stats and damage and mass majority of moves that are important are free of weapon requirements. Atom smasher seems to be the exception but with TLM's skill tree only have 2 moves that require a club and one of them being a piece of crap (double strike) Most won't give up the power and stat advantage for a move that has a weak drain at best. Sad but true. Until they fix the imbalance between class weapons and swords or fix skill trees up so Class weapons matter, we will sooner have people trying to get Atom smasher club free before someone will use a club for said move.

Lord Machaar -> RE: why support builds are OP (9/1/2015 21:39:32)
quote: TLM does not need Atom Smasher at all as Frenzy alone seems to be more powerfull than Assimilation when including all factors. Just use a club if you also want to have an energy draining skill. You can´t have it all for free. Also Piston Punch could compensate that which is the intention of this core. You are simply talking about something you have no idea about. Frenzy has 44% energy gain of the total amount of damage, and 22% of HP gain, meaning that if you want to get 100 energy/ 50 HP, you need to deal 227 damage, this damage can't be dealt by a normal strike for the current playable builds, for instance 5 focus and support TLM builds, meaning that if you want to get use of this skill you need to use it at rage, otherwise it will be just like a strike with 10% defense ignoring that doesn't even matter with RNG. That's if it doesn't get blocked, which isn't the case for assimilation which gives back energy even if it gets blocked also assimilation is not affected by kartherax, which isn't the case for frenzy. The block chance makes this skill useless especially if it is used by strenght builds, or if it is used against high dexterity builds, which isn't again the case for assimilation. Yet this isn't the big problem, the problem lays in TLM's lack of an energy draining skill, as all the energy gained by battery back up / frenzy can get drained very easily by BHs/BMs/Mercs/CHs and TMs, and atom smasher is meant not to be used for 2 reasons: - Works with strenght, which means useless for builds other than strenght builds. - You need to waste 1 skill point on multi, which means 1 skill point wasted if you aren't using a support build, and yes that 1 skill point can be invested in blood shield. - The use of the class's specific weapon is a disadvantage itself, especially for TLMs, you generally waste 5 stats/10 damage, which will put you in disadvantage against other builds that use sword, also the use of a club as a TLM will be just for 1 skill which is atom smasher. As for piston punch, piston punch is a single time use core, so in the long run, it won't matter, plus, the use of any available core means you will be in disadvantage, for instance using energy shot for your sidearm while the opponent can use azrael's anguish, using piston punch will the opponent can use generator and etc... If I were in your place, I wouldn't really throw allegations here and there without testing it, I mean I'm talking about this right now because I've just done 500 1vs1 wins in the last 3- 4 days and 200 wins in a single day, I'm not talking because I played 5 battles yesterday or I'm talking because I have 50k NPC wins.

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