Sad, just really sad :( (Full Version)

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TheBlackKnigtherber -> Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 5:22:59)

I have noticed the player base becoming smaller and smaller every day. For the first time since 2009, I couldnt find a match for 10 minutes. I hate to say it but, soon, the updates will have to be released not to the "players" but to specific people since they are the only ones playng. The problem is no one is willing to spend so much time on a browser game nowadays, so only comicalbiker and friends play. Its just too easy to download DOTA or LoL and forget about epicduel.[:(]



Therril Oreb -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 5:44:04)

These are indeed hard times for browser gaming. As PR assistant to the ED team, I am fully aware of the implications that technology have on EpicDuel today.
The development of BioBeast is the first step to resolving this and to make EpicDuel grow once more. A lot is needed to have EpicDuel become competitive with other games.
But the team is not giving up on you guys nor on the game itself. So just be there for the devs and the devs will be there for you.



TheBlackKnigtherber -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 6:19:58)

Well, I just hope an opportunity comes up for Epicduel to be more known around the world since it actually is a really good strategy game. Hopefully, it will also give the devs more space to be creative since I think they have already reached or exceeded the limits of flash.



Thylek Shran -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 7:25:55)

quote:

The problem is no one is willing to spend so much time on a browser game nowadays,

I do not see a problem with browser games. That ED has lost so many players has other reasons
which are based in the game concept itself. As example nowadays only a handfull of experienced
players can dominate 1vs1 and scare away new and old players. I do not believe in the lie that
browser games are dead and that everyone is playing on mobile phones. ED has a pretty small
niche on the market which should give it an advantage as it basically is an interesting game.
ED has a problem with PVP balance, communication and trust since 2009 when it became popular.
Players will only spend money to a game that is trustable and predictable for investments.
As example alot players do get angry and quit when they experience that their varium promo set
does get "outdated" after a year as this does not get noted when buying such a set.

Then ED has strong competition by other AE games that can attract alot more players.
Especially by AQW where just 6707 players are online which is about 68% of all AE games.
ED gained alot players from other AE games when Artix Entertainment assumptioned (bought)
Epic Inventions which was called " the merge". Alot of those players returned to their old games
like AQW or did quit some years later. So this was just a temporary boost in players.



SonicTbear -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 7:48:36)

Well, in 2009, the game was actually good (excluding the part where the Founder Armor was the best armor in the game). It had good PvP balance, a majority of the players (mostly high-leveled people) were more friendly, Health and Energy Boosters were in the game, the game only had three classes, this game wasn't Sword Art Onlineswords weren't the best in the game, no fame so that meant no "f4f," it had more staff members and mods so the creators of the game would actually listen to most requests, but alas, those days are gone. The game basically sucks now, so that drove players away, not the Flash limitations. :/



TheBlackKnigtherber -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 8:18:05)

So should we be happy that there are only hardcore players who ARE in that "niche", or should EpicDuel try to become a more mainstream game? Also, by "flash limitations" I meant hardcore players wont get as much out of it as they would from another game which can be installed and downloaded (most common example is DOTA or LoL) since hardcore players are willing to anyway. Although I do see the benefit of having it in browser as it is an entirely different experience. What i meant was, ED needs an opportunity to keep the browser feel,but also evolve the way other games have evolved with technology.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 8:33:47)

quote:

The development of BioBeast is the first step to resolving this and to make EpicDuel grow once more.


@Therril Oreb:
This is sentence, this very sentence has been said by devs, by you, and by many others, can you explain how an apping game could help a browser game grow once more?
Biobeast is an app game, it is meant for phone users. Phone users, majority of them are not interested in browser games, same thing the other way around with few exceptions, and let me explain how.
When Biobeast was first introduced to us, ED players, were we happy? No one was, since the devs made a lot of noise about something the players are not interested in, otherwise, would you see me playing
ED if I was interested in other type of games?
I just hope this is more than "Using" ED/AE's existant player base to make biobeast (& Other AE APP games) a successful game, because sincerely, the other way around is not possible.



TheBlackKnigtherber -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 9:10:34)

@ Lord Machaar, I think what he means by it being the first step is that the devs can get more experience as to how to generate games in new environments (mobile) that COULD be the new base platform of ED in a few years



Therril Oreb -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 9:26:00)

@Lord Machaar: That is very easy to explain actually. BioBeasts is made in unity. the new engine AE is currently trying to learn in order to leave Flash since the support of it is lowering as we speak. All about that can be found here: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22004939
By making a smaller game that works on unity, they can spend time both making a good game without the need of completely abandoning another game and at the same time learn how a new language works.

You have to look at the bigger picture though. There will be people who like to play BioBeasts. Some might come across it and try it out themselves and indirectly learn about Artix Entertainment.
Due to the direct connection with EpicDuel, people will also learn about that.

It all intertwines with one another.
  • BioBeasts attracts mobile players
  • Staff learns how to work with Unity

    A company needs to adapt to the ever changing environment they are working in. Learning unity is one of many changes AE goes through to continue their line of work.



    • TheBlackKnigtherber -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 9:56:47)

    @Therril Oreb:
    Wait, im still not clear on what the ED staff,devs are trying to do, are they trying to become more mainstream as ED evolves or
    will they stick to the "niche" hardcore market that they have generated over the years, I mean (right now at least) all people below level 20
    are just side characters made by lvl 40 people who want to be on the daily leaderboard. I think it would be a tough decision since they do not
    want to abandon all the old players ,but, they also want to attract new players. This is probably why the player base is decreasing, I introduced
    a few of my friends to ED and they said that it was fun but they got tired after a while since they didnt want to spend to much time on it. Another factor as to why only
    hardcore players play right now is that they witnessed the changes over the years from gamma-omega so they can truly "feel" for the game you know?



    Lord Machaar -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 9:59:52)

    Well, I still can't find a direct relation between biobeast and ED. Your sentence should be rephrased from:
    quote:

    The development of BioBeast is the first step to resolving this and to make EpicDuel grow once more.

    To: The development of BioBeast is the first step to resolving this and to make AE grow once more.
    And by AE I mean AE's new projects, not the past ones. Biobeast will not help the current ED, by saying this, you are only giving fake hope to players. I think we should sincerely say, AE and ED devs will
    move on, Epicduel 2 should be a thing by now, rather than making fake hopes and telling players biobeast will help ED, because it won't, biobeast helped ED devs, not ED, it helped them learn Unity, and
    that means the ability to make new games that work on many platforms, this will help a future ED not the current one, as it has been said, no AE game will be able to get transferred to unity.

    ED is on the edge, player base drops down to 100 - 140 players, therefore finding a 2vs2 battle might take you more than 10 minutes, we are here talking about a PVP game, so the PVP feature is a crucial
    thing. The question now is not if biobeast is going to help the current ED, the question is are devs going to make a unity ED?



    TheBlackKnigtherber -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 10:05:56)

    @Lord Machaar:
    I am sorry to say, but i have a feeling the devs will make ED 2 (lets just call it that) in unity.
    ALTHOUGH, I dont think they are cold hearted enough to not AT LEAST give something to the level 40s who
    dedicated thousands of hours of playing and support to their game.(I hope [:(] )





    On the brightside: if the devs make ED 2 then we can ask for a browser Epicduel in delta phase with no support,
    Then we laugh as it generates more players than ED 2.



    Therril Oreb -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 10:17:11)

    @TheBlackKnigtherber: the ED staff are learning, tutoring themselves to become better at what they do.
    But while browser gaming is declining in popularity, mobile gaming and client based gaming grows. And the unity engine is a prominent player in all this.
    The devs are not letting EpicDuel go, but it has to evolve and that takes time.

    A lot more is going on behind the scenes for this all to work though. AQ3D being another factor since that one basically will be the first big game made in unity.
    I cannot make any promisses of course, but ED is not done yet and the devs are not giving up on it.

    And yes, the hardcore players are a big part in the community, but at the same time, new players are needed. fresh blood with a different perspective on everything.



    Mother1 -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 10:45:22)

    @ Therril Oreb

    I remember saying that same thing one time on twitter a few months back, and when Charfade responded to my twit on twitter she told me otherwise and from what I am seeing when she made that twitter to respond to mine it was on a later date than that post that was made. Not sure if she was trying to keep the details under rap or not but if she wasn't then that means there wasn't any plan for them to convert ED over to unity.



    Therril Oreb -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 10:57:04)

    It is not that there are no plans. In fact, there are many plans on the table. However, BioBeasts is not out yet. The Devs are still busy learning the ins and outs of unity. This is not something you master by using it once.
    The critical conversations to make new plans and work on them have not begun yet and won't until at the very least BioBeast is out.

    Charfade made it very clear here: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22009415
    And it will stay there until further notice.

    I can only ask for patience and cooperation towards this.



    Lord Machaar -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 11:13:02)

    Patience, we were patient for 1 year now, to let devs learn unity, and if that was not enough, well there must be something wrong. But we will wait for the release of Biobeasts and we shall see how it goes.
    Good luck and I hope the hard work pays off.



    Xendran -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 11:13:16)

    ED May eventually be actually forced to port over to unity with the way flash is being phased out and almost stigmatized (for good reason, it's a terribly performing resource hog that is notorious for being vulnerable).
    This would be a very very good thing for ED.

    EDIT: Machaar, speaking as a dev who has used Unreal 3 and now works with Unreal 4, it most definitely takes longer than a year to become TRULY competent with a game engine. Regardless of unity being much easier than UE4, it still has an immense amount of knowledge associated with it.
    (And that's just assuming you're using the stock engine and not modifying the source code which is a whole other beast)



    Lord Machaar -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 11:21:37)

    Well, as I can see AQW team is doing good by building a 3D version of the game, which is, according to my humble experience is far harder than creating a 2D game, like biobeasts. After all, it is one company
    so sharing tips to learn rapidly this engine must be a thing. Plus we are speaking about programmers who worked for years with adobe flash, therefore it must be easier for them to learn this new
    engine compared to someone starting from scratch.



    Therril Oreb -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 11:29:37)

    This comes from my experience I did when in programming school. Learning a new language is never easy.
    Flash uses a different language than unity. So having experience in Flash gives some advantages but it is still like learning how to speak German after you learned how to speak English.

    Also, a 2D game does not mean it is easier than a 3D game.

    EDIT: You are right Xendran. my bad. But the part of 2D not being easier than 3D stands. Both can be equally difficult.



    Xendran -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 11:30:00)

    When i say it takes more than a year to learn an engine, I'm talking about a fully competent C++ programmer going into it with plenty of previous coding experience and game development experience.
    The head C++ programmer on my team has been working with Unreal Engine 4 for multiple years, and is still learning new things constantly.

    Someone starting from scratch with no programming experience would take MUCH MUCH longer than a year to learn an engine if they also have to learn a programming language.
    Also, ActionScript3 (what EpicDuel uses) is actually a terrible programming language, and won't really help you much with other languages. It'll help a bit, but not as much as you'd think.

    quote:

    3D and 2D only make a difference for the graphical designers of the team.


    Rest of your post was right, but this is very very wrong. There are a LOT of aspects related to coding that are very different (and sometimes exponentially more difficult) when working in 3D space.
    One example: 3D Vector math.



    Charfade -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 11:39:03)

    keep in mind we are working on 2 games at the same time. >_> 2 programming languages, 2 different platforms, 2 different well everything... Divides us in time on both projects. If we cut cold turkey ED responsibilities, then yeah BioBeasts development would go faster. But despite all the hurdles ED faces with Flash issues, We still care about ED and knew that wasn't going to be a option.

    It's release day, fixing things atm. I'd comment more otherwise.






    Korin -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (9/18/2015 11:53:03)

    Alright everyone, I'm about to mess you up with some truth as far as 3D vs 2D

    Machaar is right. It's harder. It takes longer to start from nothing and make a 3D game than it does to make a 2D game from nothing.

    While 3D takes more time to develop, it makes many things easier in the long run such as retargeting animations to other characters and being able to use any angle for the character (not just flip left and right) and ability to change textures. We also have particle effects which are fantastic.

    One of the nice things about Unity recently is the attention to 2D it's given. You can use a lot of the 3D elements and effects in the 2D space to get a really neat look as opposed to Flash. The downside is that while Flash eats up plenty of CPU, Unity 2D can also eat up a lot of GPU with overdraw. Basically each sprite is like a movieclip such as the hand, arm, weapon, body, head, back arm parts, leg parts. In Unity, it basically makes a mesh with an alpha to hide the mesh and only show the 2D image. The more of these you pile on top of each other will add to overdraw which makes the game lag more. It's only for sprites or textures with an alpha. Take a mesh that it just 1 poly, draw a circle on it, and hide everything outside of the circle so the mesh appears to be a circle and you now have a mesh that has an alpha. Pile these on top of each other enough and you get a laggy mess.

    There is also the change in programming from Actionscript 3 to C#. While C# is familiar to AS3, it's used in a completely different way. In Flash, you only have X and Y coordinates. In Flash Unity, you have X Y Z, even if you're doing 2D games. Everything uses a Vector3 or Vector2 (which is Vector3 but ignores the Z). Unity has many of its own commands and interfaces that were needing to be learned and were not compatible with any way things were done in Flash so it was certainly a learning curve.

    Here's our timeline of learning Unity.
    First Warlic and I played with it many years ago, probably around 2009 or 2010. We made a simple MQ game where you ran as a mech and shot things. Then we left it alone as AQW picked up speed.
    Then we had a gametastic-week challenge where Dumoos, Llussion and I decided to learn Unity and we did and it got some attention and we finally started planning a little.
    Then we tried Legends of Lore and it was a train wreck. Everyone was being told different things for optimization and it was truly insane and didn't work out.
    Then Kraken (Undead Assault programmer) had free time and wanted to do something in Unity and started Bladehaven 3D which ultimately did not get released but we learned a butt-load about optimization and how Unity works.
    Now Zhoom is taking what Kraken, Xero, Llussion, and I have learned from that game and applying it to the new game. So it took us 3 tries to now have something that we feel confident we can release and maintain as such a small team.

    So it takes time and effort and to tie this back to ED for relevance, this is their Legend of Lore / Bladehaven 3D except theirs will actually get released and they're learning a lot. They may do another learning project or jump into a bigger one. No one knows. The focus is on getting BB and keep making things in Unity before browsers completely cut support Flash.

    So I'm afraid all Flash games might be going the way of the dodo due to constant security flaws that browsers don't want to support and learning Unity is a must and I can say from experience that the last thing you want to do is rush into things and waste 2 years on projects that do absolutely nothing.



    Noobatron x3000 -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (10/3/2015 11:37:52)

    From another thread applies here to.


    quote:

    You truly believe they are going to put all the money into reinventing a game on unity that at its peak had around 1500 players actively logged in at one time .

    That had to get rid of 2 servers and sank into such a state of depression it is lucky to get around 400 players, With 200-300 players being the norm and it sinking below 200 often.

    If you believe this game will survive the death of flash , My response is okay.



    Battle Elf -> RE: Sad, just really sad :( (10/3/2015 14:47:14)

    Please don't post in threads with more than 2 weeks of inactivity.

    Locked.



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