RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (Full Version)

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Ronin Of Dreams -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/18/2015 12:53:21)

I think it is time for moving onto a different track, perhaps?

Here's a starter cue: Great Dragons. Is it a matter of sufficient age, wisdom, and experience? Or is there in fact the genetic link that has so many museum artificers up in arms to acquire the egg of Akriloth's descendant?



Trancendus -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/18/2015 15:18:48)

Strange that the Dragons don't look like the Dragons from Dragonfable. These poses make them look like Dogs with scales and a dragon head and wings.



Womba -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/18/2015 17:04:56)

quote:

Here's a starter cue: Great Dragons. Is it a matter of sufficient age, wisdom, and experience? Or is there in fact the genetic link that has so many museum artificers up in arms to acquire the egg of Akriloth's descendant?


If we're using DF lore here... it'd have to be genetic. We've seen many dragons who are adults, not made so unnaturally by a Dragon Amulet. (see Aisha, for one example) Look at Vilmors dragon as well, the former Great Dragon of Ice (wether he was an actual adult or not would need to be left to speculation but it's likely he was not as Vilmor is only a human being). Aisha was not a Great Dragon. Even with her status / titles in mind, in her dragon form she is an adult dragon. And was just as bulky as the Great Ice Dragon. The oldest the Hero was capable of fighting without any need for a titan or a powerful item to help is what would be an adolescent dragon.

Basically... it's easiest to assume that... yes being a Great dragon would be genetic. Because there's a handful of titanic sized lizards who weren't Greats at all. But still just as massive.



LyRein -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/18/2015 17:10:32)

@above

I wonder how the lesser dragons are still alive then.



Gabool The Wild -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/18/2015 18:08:18)

The whole topic of Dragons speaking english can easily be waved away if they just make them capable of telepathic communication. Plays into their use of magic and doesn't make it seem like they rely on human language. They just go into your mind and speak to you in whatever language you think in, basically.



David the Wanderer -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/19/2015 9:48:04)

@Womba: But if we go by DF lore, the DF Staff has stated that in the case a Great Dragon dies without an heir, the next strongest dragon of that element would take up the title. I have a feeling the Elemental Lords/Avatars are somewhat involved, since they were the ones to originally choose the Great Dragons.

Side note on Cryozen: He actually bonded with Vilmor when she was a kid and he was already an adult. I guess the fact he and Aisha have the same size might be due to graphic restrictions. Of course, there probably are dragons who are enormous who were not Great Dragons... Although they could be related.

@Ronin of Dreams: I guess the egg of Akriloth's only descendant would be a valuable artefact on his own. Of course, some people might want to get it in the hope to ensure the loyalty of the dragon that could hatch from it... Or considering how much suffering Akriloth has caused, somebody might want to get "revenge" by destroying the egg, and Akriloth's bloodline...

EDIT: This is purely conjecture on my part, but... What if the title of "Great Dragon" could be earned by a dragon who defeats the current holder? It would definitely be interesting to see a fight between, say, Drakath the Great Darkness Dragon and a good Darkness Dragon. Or even a lesser elemental dragon rebelling to the Great Dragon of its element due to pride.



Chaosyn -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/19/2015 18:27:03)

If we go by Dungeons&Dragons then a Great Dragon isn't born....it's a measure of power,hoard size,and age...ANY dragon can become one...IF it lives long enough and collects enough treasure/power.

Dragons have been able to speak since D&D first launched...They speak many languages (and even have their own) as they're some of the most intelligent beings in existence..and many are incredibly powerful spellcasters...



LyRein -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/20/2015 11:34:50)

@above

Which is how it should be... I mean neanderthals and sapiens both had dumb moments like the stereotypical caveman attitude but both also had potential to become extremely intelligence and dominant (neanderthals were shown to be more advanced or wise, sadly they lacked the numbers we had and either: died off or interbred with us, most likely the latter).

And now look where we are, from forest hunting and cave gatherings to the internet, gaming, space, fast-food, cars etc.

So Dragons shouldn't be any different in terms of intelligence, they did evolve on the same planet as humans.
Now that I think about it... are dragons more like sharks (resort to eating anything that comes near it in dire situations including family) or lizards (leave child alone in the wild on occasion).

Or maybe they're lizard-sharks dundundunnn



David the Wanderer -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/20/2015 12:43:51)

@LyRein: Wait, why should dragons have the same level of intelligence of humans? An human is smarter than, say, a mono-cellular being, and both evolved on the same planet.

On childcare... I dunno. They're pretty smart, and different dragons have different moralities. Maybe there are some dragon parents who keep a close eye on their children, and maybe there are those who believe in "free range". Of course, dragons are pretty much the epitome of predatory species, so even younglings shouldn't have to worry about bears or wolves in the wilderness.



LyRein -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/20/2015 14:23:12)

@Above

I mean if they were smarter than us and more ancient they'd be building empires in other universes by now under a united government... if your species can't build civilizations or work with other of your kind you're not really going to get anywhere with that knowledge.

So the only way for them to be as smart as people make them to be is for them to be like humans.
Humans are incredibly smart, that's why no other species on the planet can build tools, use them freely with hands and speak a constructed language with alphabets, make use of electricity, dig ores and mine minerals, question our existence or go to space.

You're missing the point when I say as smart as humans.
People on this thread have been calling them mighty and more intelligent than humans, they speak languages easily and can take on ten men down easily, which most are human traits. So naturally they'd also have society, laws and morality systems.

Mono-cellular beings aren't comparable to dragon vs humans.

If we're talking size, then every megafauna ever should have been smarter than humans, which is not the case.

If you mean the fact they evolved on the same planet, doesn't mean there always has to be one smarter than the other. The two human species Sapien and Neanderthal were both equally intelligent, the latter simply lacked the numbers we had and had to interbreed (fact; majority of modern humans have 5% Neanderthal DNA in them).



David the Wanderer -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/20/2015 14:58:31)

@LyRein: They might just not be interested in building empires and great civilizations. Often, the downfall of dragons is pride, which isn't really helpful when you try to get people to agree on something. Furthermore, different beings than us might not work with the same framework of mind than what humans judge "normal". They might work with completely different rules for moral and what is considered "good" and "evil", and have different aspirations than humans: a dragon might be content with building an hoard of precious stuff and lay on it all day, with no interest on expanding its territory.
Dragons also have incredibly long lifespans, which lets them accumulate knowledge and wisdom in whatever interests them. A single dragon might be capable of learning more about, say, chemistry than any human, simple because it has so much time; they might spend centuries studying the in and out of geology just because it interests them and want to immediately be able to tell the worth of a gem, ignoring forming relationships with others of their kind in order to focus on their studies.

Also, humans band together because when alone, a single human is pretty frail. We lack any sort of "natural" weapon (claws, fangs...), but together we can hunt down large beasts like mammoths to the point of extinction. Dragons? A single adult dragon can effortlessly sustain itself without even having to interact with other dragons. It's a matter of why we do things. Wolves form packs because it makes easier to hunt, but a dragon doesn't need to form a pack.

On intelligence: other primates aren't as smart as humans, despite having the potential to be so. Simply put, while natural evolution does favour the strongest and the smartest doesn't means the weaker and the stupider just cease existing. It's perfectly possible for dragons to be smarter (better predators, innate knowledge of magic, etc), and not having to compete with humans for territory, food, and other stuff. There's not much point in competing with another species if you don't gain any benefit from it (I mean, dragons DO need humans to make all those sparkly gold coins, no?).



LyRein -> RE: =AQ3D= Design Notes October 15th, 2015 - Dragons (10/20/2015 16:10:11)

@above

It's natural way of life though for social animals to be better at survival and advancement.
Humans lost what primate features they had because they learned to craft tools, we no longer needed anything biologically since tools were much more efficient.

I think you're thinking too much of aliens at this point.
Since, presumably humans and dragons somehow ultimately managed to co-exist even though the dragon would've had nothing to take (like gold or treasure) from early humans (as you said, they need humans to make gold), they would both have to understand each-other and have to be able to relate, otherwise it's like trying to compare apples and oranges.

Also I doubt AE humans would give dragons anything valuable like CURRENCY or ECONOMY.
You could say dragons just magic gold up, then that leaves the question why do they need humans anymore?

On topic of learning, a human is more likely to learn about chemistry than a dragon, as we're taught it starting from a young age and possibly to our elderly years (if we take that route) and we have the basis for all science. What's a dragon going to do if it doesn't work with other dragons to learn about science? As you said, dragons are ancient so when humans are likely to be dead they'll still be alive but without the basic understanding of sciences.

By the way, chemistry is easier when you have a group of scientists, so there's another reason to have society.
Dragons wouldn't be able to figure everything out on their own, otherwise humans could be in planes in the medieval ages and dragons would be a multi-million industry to hatch and tame.

Which is not the case.
You could say dragons don't find the idea of sharing knowledge with others useful, then i'll say why are we still making gold for them and if they can magic up gold why do they still keep us around because if they're smarter, stronger, more in tune with magic and can fly... they don't really need us anymore, as adults can share knowledge onto children who then won't require a Dragonlord as they'll be taught everything by their mother/father.

About sustainability, they'd still have to compete against other dragons for stuff, so i'm surprised they haven't killed each-other off yet.

quote:

and not having to compete with humans for territory, food, and other stuff.


Doesn't work like that sadly.
Humans need land to expand cities as the population grows, need more food to feed said population so they'll eventually cross dragon territory, dragons can either live with them or most likely just fight back for their land.

I doubt humans would let them live if they won't share knowledge and expect us to give them gold or treat them like loyalty (esp if they demand a huge cave each and ask us to build a portal to the dragonplane).

Then ofc you've got the Dragonlord eco lovers who will cause an argument which could lead to a chain of events causing a war.



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