=DF= Is magic worth it? (Full Version)

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megakyle777 -> =DF= Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 6:35:14)

So I played the end quest of the war. And I noticed that one of the Rose pointed out that without magic Valtrith would not exist. And more importantly, our hero could not come up with a answer to that.

You see, here's what I'm thinking. Every single threat we have faced in the history of Draognfable - every one - happened because of maigc. With no magic, Alexander and Warlic would have never met. With no magic, neither Seppy or the Stranger would be a thing. With no magic, Rorir would not be going about the Shapeless Empire eating people like a all you can eat buffet, Asper would never have EXISTED let alone got to the Void Core, and Serenity's body would not currently be occupied. For that matter she would not be dead. The ONLY threat we have EVER faced that is NOT magic in nature is The Rose, and they were formed to PREVENT magic evils happening. No magic, no Rose.

And we rarely see magic do anything good, or enhace people's lives. Every magic user has a tragedy (Except Cysero. maybe) Every time we see good magic used, it's only ever in defense against bad magic. And bad magic is there a LOT.

My point is... would lore really be better off with magic? Let's ignore the whole "Can lore EXIST without magic?" question and assume it can. If you and everyone else could wake up in a magicless Lore, no Valtrith, no Seppy, no MS, no threat like that, would you?


Edit: geode!



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 6:42:18)

^

You see, 'can Lore exist without magic' IS the fundamental question. Can all the magical creatures we know even exist without magic? Because if talking dragons that can spout fire can exist without magic, we're doomed if we just have regular weapons to fight them. And if they can't exist without magic, which is the logical assumption, then we're talking the genocide of thousands of species here. They don't even have the comfort of lingering in Death's Realm as wandering souls, because Death's Realm won't exist without magic. They'll be completely destroyed like Serenity.

So no, not worth it. I'm pretty sure the sum total of all casualties from magic-related disasters doesn't compare to the catastrophe of all magic creatures disappearing.

Would be great for humans though.



Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 6:45:20)

So here's an interesting question which puts the discussion of ending magic in a different perspective.

"Would technology continue to work and exist?"



Lenus -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 6:46:57)

^ .... I really find it disgustingly amusing how the Rose all comes down to simple racism.... or... I dunno, whatever the term is for magic vs non magic.

You can't really say 'This fire ball does not have feelings! Fire balls are not sentient!!' ... *Coughs, points to the fire elementals.... clearly moving around, looking at you....* Yeah, no sentience there... free will? what's that?



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 6:47:41)

Here is the hole in that logic really. We don't see daily life. We really can't unless the staff some how got super powers. So say the only time magic is used is when it's vs bad magic is a stretch. Especially as we aren't everywhere at all times.

Add in yes bad things have happened because of magic...But then look at MQ. Where magic isn't a thing and look at all the bad that goes on there. Just because one thing has bad doesn't mean without it there wouldn't be bad in other ways.

Removing magic from lore wouldn't solve much there would still be Evil people, doing evil things.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 6:48:11)

@Dwelling Dragonlord

I don't think Lore would be much worse off without the current tech that might require magic. We'd lose Popsprocket and Lim would be devastated, but that's about it.



UltimateDoomKnight -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 6:58:42)

Much can be achieved without magic. There are those who devotes themselves to science or blacksmithing creating powerful weapons even without the use of magic. Valen Pulchure was once a great and powerful Knight of Swordhaven. He was undefeated in combat until he met someone with dark magic, Drethix according to the history of his past. Valen almost died but MS appeared Before him, he promises Valen to help him achieve his wish to resurrect Lynaria but that he in return obeys MS's orders. MS grants Valen the Power of a DoomKnight, creating Sepulchure out of Valen, and saving his Life, thus defeating Drethix. So you see, non-magical creatures cannot stand against beings with possession of magical Powers. That is why it is very dangerous that the Rose forbidds it because they cannot hope to stop others from using it.

My Point in all of this is that, no matter if with or without the magic, much can be achieved and the threats will remain at the same level because magic is not the ONLY thing that ensures victory for a side. As an existing being, wether it be living or dead, has several equalities and capabilities that can be used for survival and the endless process of evolution will transform a being into something greater and will keep increasing possibilities and equalities, so it's not as hopeless as many people may Think. Without magic, all creatures like the faeries, KaraSulema, Dragonlords, DoomKnights and elementals would become a myth and the secret Beauty of Life itself wouldn't be in sight. It's about to sustain the balance of Life itself, it contains great many secrets from which cannot be discovered without an open and Sharp mind.
With magic, the threat becomes of course greater but it still won't matter because both sides can achieve anything with it. They can both cause and prevent total destruction, so can you do without magic as well but not at the same level.

One could say that magic is a higher standard of living, it will take much more but not from other things or others... from yourself. Living with the magic is aquiring the inner Power of a being, turning it into something physical when it in fact isn't. You must accept the fact that Everything, absolutely Everything, has a risk more or less and you can't spend your thoughts of being cynical or paranoid.



Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 7:01:19)

@Silver Sky Magician: I'm not talking magiscience.

The point that I was trying to make was that technology, which is underutilized because there's magic, would take over and replace magic's old role.



solomi123 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 7:45:08)

If magic didn't exist, or at least render inaccessible, Lore would get rekt by Wargoth, Shadowscythes and every single techno/magical advanced species to exist in or outside of the planet which mean everybody dies ... so yeah ...

That is if the planet doesn't implode upon itself first because lack of Mana core and all that. (didn't-exist scenario only)




Zork Knight -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 9:33:44)

I'm pretty sure magic is the reason Lore's technology is stagnated. Get rid of magic, and people will be forced to develop.



dragon_monster -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 9:35:10)

Is it I mean what level of technology you thing they are compared to human history?



Zork Knight -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 9:39:56)

Lore, or at the very least Battleonia, seems to be stuck in the Middle Ages for millenia. The only exceptions being the gnomes, and the occasional science enthusiast (Lim and Voltabolt).



dragon_monster -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 9:57:23)

Well I think its more early Renaissance with gunpowder existing and some electricity. But they did made advancements for example in weapon power thing confirmed by Varlith. Also humanity did not made any significant advancement until 200 years ago. They where slow very slow also and we had no magic.



solomi123 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 10:37:00)

I feel like if there's no magic, present-time Lore is only at best victorian-steampunk-era technology if Gnomish tech are any indication (surviving Reset technology excluded of course)
not the best thing to save the world from crazy darkness elemental maniacs with.



Veral77 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 10:54:58)

Perhaps the same could be said of all civilized advances. The safest thing to do is go back to living in caves.



DoomTaco -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 11:14:13)

Even without magic, humans will still find ways to annihilate each others be it through science, or otherwise. It's in human nature.
Magic itself isn't inherently evil nor good, it just is, what we need to change is the mentality of magic and non magic users to make them see it's not just a belic tool to be used for control, violence and destruction.



requiem.exe -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 11:35:44)

I've been in and out for a bit, haven't played the quest in question, but as to where lore would be without magic, or if its worth keeping...

Look at our world. We don't have magic, and things aren't exactly peachy-keen. People will find a way to screw things up so long as there are people. The rose blames magic, but all they'd do by getting rid of it is remove a major part of their world and lose an excuse for the horrors people do. What lore needs isn't the elimination of magic, but a better system for reporting and dealing with magical problems. If the rose functioned as a policing force and had better oversight and membership requirements, they'd be closer to what lore needed.



LadyYennifer -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 12:38:14)

We know in AQW that Lore has a core of Mana but what of DF's version of Lore? What do we know about the planet itself here? Does it have a core of mana or is it something else?



Roxas45 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 12:40:10)

A wise man once said that the science which is so advanced that it cannot be understood by the people will always be seen as magic.

Magic is science, Science is magic.

As for the original topic of conversation...
without magic, we would not have Valrith. Yeah? NO.
Jaysun was born to clan Valrith many eons ago. He was there then, and hes here now. Lack of magic woldnt have prevented the whole he was there then bit.

Seppy. He would have ended up WORSE than what Val was after the death of his loved one. Broken, Destroyed, hell bent on vengeance... Reminds you of another group of individuals wouldnt you?
Personally, Magic made Seppy into a lesser evil than what could have been possible. His doomknight armour made him STRONG.
Drakath. Lead an army, fight us. Death and destruction everywhere. Without magic.
This time, No Seppy to go "YOU DARE?!" as he runs across a (now, dust pile) of skeletons....
Sek Duat. He wouldnt have taken time to destroy the sand elves, or hunt down the witches. He would have been desperate, as there was no magic... And desperate would have made him incredibly dangerous, far more than earlier.

Xan, Warlic, Jaania.... These three would never have been in a situation like this. Xan and Jaania survived it, in the end... But had it been the same three people (obviously, with lack of magic, not possible, but if...) it would have ended up as a duel between Alexander and Warlic, and most likely to the Death.

The moglins, magical creatures who bring love and kindness to everyone! No magic = No Moglins = No moglinberry juice = no magical healing.
As someone who is currently waiting 8 months to pass for recovery after a surgery, it sucks waiting that long.

Croft would have been desolate, and full of people just generally being..... Jason and Freddy like.

YES Magic has screwed up so so so much for all of us... But at the same time, think of the Alternative.
More death, and humans just becoming more clever at killing.

The benefits far outweigh the risks as such.

Also.... plot line for Inheritance: Post victory at Gil'ead situation with Nasuada and the magicians.... and also the entire Edolas plot line from Fairy Tail.



Aura Knight -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 12:58:23)

Science can be pretty magical at times.



Brasca123 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 18:22:34)

as others have already said, science is as destructive as magic, but let's analyze a bit deeper

supposing lore had no more magic, what would stop the shadowscythe to come to lore anyway? first, the MS would be able to come, than he would sell doom weapons, instead of selling them as destructive weapons of doom, he would sell them as decorative items (as people would use guns for killing each other), people would buy them, be corrupted, and suddenly, BOOM, shadowscythe invasion, the shadowscythe has many plans in motion and we would be totally annihilated most likely (of course, beings like warlic that are transdimensional of sorts that will always have some sort of magic involved with them could save us, but again, magic doing a good thing)

also, healing magic, science isn't nearly as good in healing as magic is, good luck going through recovery after a surgery like roxas is (i already went through that, it's not nice i tell you, and mine was a simple one)

not to mention all the magic beings that would be oppressed and whatever else

so, overall i say that the rose is fighting a lost cause and that magic it totally worth it!

spoiler:

side note: don't forget the hugs, hugs are the best magic that could ever exist... this is in spoiler tags just for the suspense



Veral77 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 18:24:02)

Remember that old episode of the Simpsons when Sideshow Bob used a TV monitor to decry the evils of TV? That's the Rose and magic.



Mordred -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 18:29:37)

Magic is more than worth it, because magic is, most usually, a tool. Just because some people or things use it poorly doesn't mean magic itself is responsible, or that some other form of power, like technology, would be inherently better (and really, is equally open to abuse). Until someone finds a way to strip beings of free will, people will always try to harm one another, with whatever tools they have at their disposal.



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/21/2015 23:01:46)

Yes, magic is worth it. There are always going to be people who wish to cause destruction. Magic is just a way for those people to reach their goal. The advancement of science/magic in the name of helping humanity may end up bringing about weapons that can be used for destruction no matter what.

The Rose's attempt to get rid of magic isn't even planned well enough though, they haven't (as far as we've seen) set up non-magical hospitals, schools that teach science (and maybe dentistry), and a non-magic based long distance communication system that could be widely used (ex: telegraph, telephone, internet)



Anibourne -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/22/2015 2:23:23)

The real question is in a Lore without fantastic magical weapons and fantastic magical creatures to interact with and do glorious battle with.......

Would DragonFable Still be a fantastically wonderful game to play?



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