A Question About Power Creep (Full Version)

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cenarius345 -> A Question About Power Creep (12/1/2015 4:11:13)

I've been playing AE games for over a decade now (I beta-tested Dragonfable, Mechquest, and AQW, am Alpha-testing AQ3D, and I'm both an X-Guardian and Dragonlord) and I'm planning on backing the AQ3D kickstarter with some Christmas money coming my way. One of my biggest questions, looking at the backer rewards, is about power creep - more specifically, how it will be handled in regards to the tier classes. I've noticed, for instance, that the cross-game Guardian and Dragonlord classes in AQW have been seriously outpaced by new content (The recent OmniKnight comes to mind), and I'm concerned that people who pay $50 for a "Founder Rogue" class will find it, for lack of a better term, outclassed by future armours - or worse, virtually unusable two or three years down the road. Do you guys have any plans to deal with this yet, or am I asking far too early in the development stage?



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/1/2015 6:06:19)

Founder Rogue doesn't sound all that different from the regular Rogue class, and I'm guessing that it's just a class reskin.

Assuming that Founder Rogue is indeed basically the regular Rogue class, it will definitely be outclassed and superseded. The base AQ3D classes are extremely weak - they can't take on more than one monster of equal level without healing. This is too low a ceiling for future classes. The base classes will be useful for meeting the necessary requirements for class upgrades/ better classes, but they will not be useful beyond that.

A power creep is indeed bad for the game, and a tier system needs to be implemented to prevent the runaway one-upmanship we see in AQW. That being said, there needs to be a sense of progress in terms of battle mechanics to keep players interested in the game, especially since AQ3D is inherently limited in its storytelling and graphics.



Baron Dante -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/1/2015 7:07:45)

The Kickstarter states as follows: "Rare Founder-only variants of the Warrior, Rogue and Mage Class armors"
To me, that looks like they will just be ARMORS, to be worn over your actual classes, like AQW does. In that case, this isn't an issue relating to these items.

However, there is something this power-creep discussion definitely applies to: Alpha Pirate.
I think the way DF does classes now is a fairly decent option. Not entirely as is, since the games are certainly different, but a similar set-up.
This way, there shouldn't be a power-creep, when the upper limits are more or less decided from the get-go.
Done right, no serious class would become entirely useless. They might not be among the best, but usable.
This also goes a long way to inspire being creative with making the classes, when you can't just make the selling point of a new class "it's better than anything else". A potential downside here will be that any class that isn't at the highest tier would arguably be worse than the highest tier options. Which easily leads to most new classes being said tier by default.



LyRein -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/1/2015 11:52:04)

Since it's heavily influenced by AQW (and shares the same 'combat' system) it will eventually end up becoming like AQW.

Power creeps and 1-hit classes that all do multiple things.



Azan -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/1/2015 16:56:26)

LyRein: Thank you for that constructive vision of things...?

I agree with what Baron said, actually: it's completely possible to have different power tiers without having lower tiers or older classes becoming useless. AQ3D, if properly balanced, can avoid the whole power creeps issue. Plus we cannot say this game is going to be a complete remake of AQW in 3D, especially since Cysero already stated that they would not use some key features of AQW, such as enhancements. I most certainly have faith in the game not to reproduce AQW's issues![:)]



LyRein -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/1/2015 18:40:27)

it's the truth.

playerbase will be taken up mostly by aqw players

aqw players will find 4 skills welcoming as they're used to it
aqw players will naturally assume they will get classes if they ask for it.

aqw players ask for classes a lot.
4 skills will get boring. therefore more classes and aesthetics.

4 skills + too many classes = power creeps because 4 skills cause burn-out quickly classes and that'll make so many people want more or something new.

if they don't have any new ideas
they remake old ones, make them more powerful and give them a new look.



Rezilia -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/1/2015 19:09:04)

AQ3D isn't designed for AQW players. It's designed for veterans. It has enough AQW elements to feel familiar to AQW players, but most AQW players will go back to AQW after a while, so there's no need to fret.



LyRein -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/2/2015 11:13:01)

@above

that's another problem.
it's designed for veterans.

if this does become power creep haven then i think newer players will leave (maybe out of boredom of the 4 skills in general) and most DF players.

you need to think not only about technicality and gameplay but also about social or physiological effects. players are humans. players will get tired of only 4 skills per class that they've used like 100 times each. even if they do add combos or special effects etc, it will also get tiresome fast because it'll be the same combos over and over.

hence they'll ask for a new class and they'll expect it to be better in general too,



Gjappy -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/4/2015 10:06:14)

About classes: the current plan is not to make new classes apart from the base classes. But we plan to have the classes evolve into next tier classes and so create a whole different ranking system than most of our other games.
For Example: If you 've assembled enough class points for Mage class you 'll be able to evolve it into Sorcerer (more aggro mage, much dmg less defense) or Wizard (more defensive mage, more end and a bit of dmg) and so on.
But we 're still working this out as for it takes quite a lot of time to set these up instead of just new separate classes. Nor can we guarentee success on that, but we do want to differ at this point.

As well in the Stream Artix already mentioned that there will be weapons or items with special effects and additional bonuses, combo's is as well a very nice idea. But remember we 're still at the beginning of creating this all.

(we 're also still debating about healing classes, since the Testing team befound that it's extremely hard to keep a raiding party alive if there's no healing class)

But for any other 'new classes' they will most likely just be an upgrade of other classes which you have to earn by ranking up.

~ Gjappy



LyRein -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/4/2015 10:37:43)

That kind of system just doesn't work with 4 skills only though.

Look at DragonNest, that has the system.
It works because you have enough variety in skills and combos to not just needing one of each class as two of the same classes can perform different attacks or strategies.

This time around it can't work as with 4 skills the solution to actually winning fights are:

having loads of people use powerful attacks
having powerful attacks and being a one-man army.

Now, tier classes only and not unique and original classes (no offence but wizard and mage are the same thing and sorcerer has been done to death)

It feels like you're trying TOO hard to stand out.
There's not enough variety in class combat to make this work.

how do you plan to do end game by the way?

"enough mage points" how many points would get you a class? wouldn't you just farm points then buy all future classes and redo for another branch?

We aren't asking for so little amount of combat. A lot of the suggestions on the previous thread were mostly about the combat and skills itself and how you can improve it (sadly no-one from staff was "looking for suggestions at the time").

We want better combat and a reasonable number of classes.
Focusing on ways to get classes before focusing on the core ideas like skills, combat, monster reactions etc doesn't make sense.

If we go with your current idea, what happens to the previous class tier? would tier 2 be surpassed by tier 3? if so, why would you sacrifice a favourite skillset for more power and a different skillset and if they aren't going to be surpassed, what's the point in a tier system anyways?

EDIT

If you can't think of a way to keep a party alive without a healer that obviously means 4 skills are not enough to have the kinds of classes you guys want. Self-healing but also a tank? try that with only 4 skills.



Rezilia -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/4/2015 11:49:32)

I agree with Ly. If your plan is to restrict our gameplay and force us into glass cannon secondary classes, that's a huge no-no.

If you just do what AQW should have done, which was use the "beta paladin" system where ranking warrior+healer gave you pali, etc, and allow classes to be unlocked that way without making any classes stronger or better than others, you can easily introduce more classes without turning everything into a P2W-fest.



Gjappy -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/4/2015 13:52:46)

It is still all subject to change. I will forward the suggestions as we can pull them in when we work at class balancing next time.



LyRein -> RE: A Question About Power Creep (12/4/2015 16:07:51)

@ckdragonck

agreed, it also still allows for tier systems.

i.e sure warrior + healer = paladin, but you can get tier 2 paladin with [insert class] + paladin + [insert requirement] after finishing a storyline.
however to use tier 2 paladin you need to reach a certain level.

that brings me to another point i'll ask in QnA



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