How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (Full Version)

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Quad Darts -> How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/9/2015 23:18:42)

As We All Know Underdog Mode Is Quite Unfair For High-ranked Lv.40 Playets Due To The Extra Percentage Of Stunning, Critting,...etc.

So What If It Gave 2 Points On Dex And Tech Only For Each Level, Instead Of Dex,Tech,Supp,Str And Extra Percentage On Everrything?
E.g:Instead Of 1,2,2,1 (Lv.2) It'll Give 0,4,4,0 And No Extra Percentage.
Only Tech And Dex Because They're Required For All Builds.
Why Not Str And Supp? Because The High-ranked Players Deserve An Advantage, After All They've Worked Hard To Reach Their Current Rank.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/9/2015 23:28:27)

The extra chance of blocks, deflects, crits and stuns comes up to 1-2% at most with the highest level Underdog. This is not at all significant. Assuming that a block or deflect would reduce incoming damage by 200, and that a crit or stun would increase outgoing damage by 200, the highest level Underdog would give an equivalent of 2-4 HP per defending turn and a 2-4 damage increase per attacking turn (considering increased luck chances only). Over a 15-turn battle, assuming an 80% attacking/defending rate, this adds up to 24-48 more HP and 24-48 more damage over the entire battle. Entirely negligible, especially since ranks at the highest level Underdog would provide 30-40 more damage per attack and negate 30 damage per defend.



Deathknightmare -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 2:01:17)

As a high level player, I am okay with the under dog as it is. I wouldn't mind to see them boost it a little more for players under 40 since they are the players that are taking the beatings. I just get tired of fighting the same players 4 times in a row. At least if we can keep the lower level players playing we can get more people on the servers. The underdog function ultimately is not fair to the older players but the game seems to be dying so I'm okay with whatever they need to do to keep the game going and to get new players to keep playing.



The berserker killer -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 11:18:10)

Well there's nothing more for me to say since underdog wont change but it kills me to see devs/mods greatly misunderstand the capabilities of underdog mode.

1-2% is a huge % in this game. That 1-2% decides who goes first, who crits, who blocks, who deflects, not to mention each and every skill in underdog mode gets boosts by 5+ damage minimum in a game where individuals can literally win by 1 hp. 1-2% isn't small, and the reason this games balance is on decline, the reason this game is not fair, is because of the misunderstanding.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 18:57:13)

@The berserker killer:

That's literally a problem with blocks, deflects, crits, and going first. It's not a problem with underdog. Nobody should ever be able to get screwed over by a single one of those things consistently unless they're using a polarized build.

I think what needs to happen is, particularly at lower levels, the penalty from being blocked/deflected is a lot less. Crits need to be toned down and maybe happen more often for support builds at higher levels, so that they're consistent and not some BS factor that decides if a support build wins or loses. Overall, I think luck factors' chance of occurring should be way, way higher but their penalty should be a lot less so they feel more consistent rather than BS luck that just happens to have a higher chance of happening with more stat investments.



The berserker killer -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 19:10:26)

Underdog grants that extra 1-2%. I know what you mean but it definitely is a problem with underdog mode and I only hope devs realize/keep that in mind for future decisions



Exploding Penguin -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 21:56:41)

But it wouldn't be a problem if they just made the luck factors not so influential like they should be?



Remorse -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 22:52:37)

^Spot on



Quad Darts -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 23:26:13)

@Silver Sky Magician:Aha! You Said It! It Makes The Players With Less Ranks/Levels Equal To The Player With The Higher Levels/Ranks Without The Extra Percentages On Everything,In Other Words The Percentages Grants The Player With Less Ranks/Levels An Advantage That They Did Not Even Play Hard Enough To Earn It.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/10/2015 23:59:46)

It is worth pointing out that when we refer to the percent gain we are talking about Underdog 10 and it's impact on RNG. If you want a quick guide for every match then the Dex/Tech bonus divided by 5 is the impact it has on RNG and the support bonus divided by 7 is impact on criticals.

Why do we focus on Underdog 10? Easy math(6/5 and 5/7) and the most extreme of all possibilities



Quad Darts -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 0:45:49)

@One Winged Angel1357: I'm Using A Support Build With 109+35 Support, A Rank 25 (I'm 40) Started First With 107+28 Support, Does That Seem Fair To You? Not To Mention That I Get Stunned At Least Once A Battle When I Face Support Tm/Bm With Around 120+35 Support, And As Far As I Know Support Does Not Increase The Stunning Chance Anymore, Am I Wrong?



Exploding Penguin -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 0:58:07)

This isn't pokemon, having more support than another person doesn't guarantee you're going to go first. And the stun thing is entirely irrelevant because that would be more related to a possible problem in the coding which I personally have never had a problem with since I run a standard focus build with around 60 support and get stunned 30% of the time. You're running a completely RNG-based build and you're complaining about RNG....

And there are a few cringeworthy things you just said:

quote:

An Advantage

It's called underdog because it's meant to compensate, not give an advantage.

quote:

They Did Not Even Play Hard Enough To Earn It.

This is literally the worst mentality to have in a competitive-styled game. In NO competitive game should playtime by itself mean anything. It only means you're innately more strategic at the game in general, which will be apparent based off of your win rate. You should also consider the fact that I'm still level 38 and I have double your 1v1 wins. Stop judging people based off of their level please. It's no surprise that I can consistently beat level 40s under 10 ranks when they have less than 10k wins overall and I have almost 25k wins despite the 2-level + ranks disadvantage.

...and please stop capitalizing every word you type. It makes it kinda hard to read.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 1:15:30)

@Quad Darts

You literally understood the exact opposite of what I was trying to convey in that post. I was showing, mathematically, that the increased luck chances of even the highest level Underdog do not provide an advantage over ranked players, because ranks mathematically provide a greater advantage than either the increased luck chances themselves or Underdog as a whole. In other words, even with Underdog, players of higher rank always have a significant mathematical advantage over players of lower rank.

As Exploding Penguin mentioned, having a slight support advantage over the opponent as you did does not guarantee first start. The first start calculations can be found in the ED Balance Calculations thread in the Balance section.

@Exploding Penguin

Blocks/Deflections/Stuns/Crits have already been nerfed. In my experience, these luck factors only start to be significant after two procs - a single block/deflection/stun/crit does little to change the course of battle. Whenever I used dex builds, I also found that even one or two blocks against str builds (albeit those of higher rank than me) did little to turn the battle in my favour. I do not think luck factors need further nerfing.



Remorse -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 1:56:52)

I think they just need to change the impact of the outliers by increasing frequency but also reducing the impact.

Critical builds where people invested into support for say 80% chance to crit versis non suppoty but then MASSIVLY reduce the extra damage component.

What this does is makes on average more deserving to those with higher chances and less impactful and game deciding from a single occurrance. Luck could technically have the same net impact but with less frustrating outliers.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 2:05:51)

^

Now that you phrase it this way I'm starting to see the merits of this view. Certainly worth considering, though it will require a complete balance revamp.



Quad Darts -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 4:55:00)

@Exploding Penguin:

It is indeed not pokemon, yet more points grants a better chance, the more points you contribute you are supposed to gain an advantage or two.
I faced the same person more than five times and i only got first once, does that seem fair to you? I also got deflected against a person with 19+14 tech, i got 19+27 and Aim Assist, my opponent was using Stun Shot, yet i did not deflect.
Above are examples that happened only to me, and I'm pretty sure that many other high-ranked players have suffered from the luck as well.
The game is pretty much based on the luck factor now, the strategy does not help at all, at most of the battles, which is why less percentages and more points will slightly help with the balance of the game



Exploding Penguin -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 5:47:01)

quote:

I think they just need to change the impact of the outliers by increasing frequency but also reducing the impact.


This statement hit the nail spot-on.

quote:

faced the same person more than five times and i only got first once, does that seem fair to you? I also got deflected against a person with 19+14 tech, i got 19+27 and Aim Assist, my opponent was using Stun Shot, yet i did not deflect.


No offense but you sound like every single other person on the forums who complains about RNG not favoring them. It is very normal to have bouts of bad luck every now and then. If you are running a sample of maybe 50 battles against the same person then I would be more convinced, but the point you're arguing by bringing up going first 1/5 times doesn't really make the point I think you're trying to get at. It sounds more like you want the numbers in the code checked out.

The other option that I think you're saying is that you should have ridiculously polarized chances of going first over a small support advantage. I think the chance of going first per point of support could use a minor increase, but making it extremely influential just ruins the game because of random matchmaking. People will start counting their stats again and always run like 5 more support points than a standard 45+(stat enhancements from equipment) focus build just to specifically counter them which is the last thing that we want going on in ED. It's way too reminiscent of the agility problems where everybody always ran 95/110/125/140/etc.... HP values and never anything else.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/11/2015 9:19:44)

quote:

I faced the same person more than five times and i only got first once, does that seem fair to you? I also got deflected against a person with 19+14 tech, i got 19+27 and Aim Assist, my opponent was using Stun Shot, yet i did not deflect.


Was your opponent a high ranking player like you or were they a low ranking player because the key factor in first turn calculations is level or eLevel in the case of ranks

Seeing as neither of those cores impact your chance to preform a deflection, Aim Assist makes you less likely to be deflected, you had a 13% chance to deflect that attack. We are talking ~1/10 chance of deflecting so that is most likely why you didn't deflect because it wasn't a likely outcome



Quad Darts -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/12/2015 8:53:05)

@One Winged Angel1357:

It's not about me not deflecting; it's about him deflecting while i did not despite the fact that I've got a core to decrease my deflection chances while he doesn't and my higher tech, my oppbonet was rank 17 by the way and I was 32 back then, and those are just examples by me, I'm pretty sure you'll find more if you asked other players with higher ranks than mine

@Exploding Penguin:

It's not just about me and my luck, it's about everyone who lost a match due to underdog mode's extra chances.
And no I wasn't complaining, those were just examples and I'm pretty sure you'll find many others if you asked players with higher ranks than mine.

In other worda: underdog mode currently is giving the low-ranked players a better advantage than the higher ones; which means that all you need is 20 ranks for def and resis and you'll be better than the higher players

Posts merged, please don't double post. ~WhiteTiger



Foulman -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/12/2015 15:22:25)

Quad darts, you have 13 more tech than that guy. Of course you're going to be deflected. Support doesn't decrease stun chance either anymore, so stop complaining. If you don't want to get screwed over by deflections, stop using a Support spam bully build and go think of something else.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/12/2015 15:54:15)

@Foulman can I have a link to that post on Support no longer decreasing stun chance because I never saw that change when digging through the DN's. Last I saw Stun had a minimum chance of 12%



Exploding Penguin -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/12/2015 16:19:38)

The problem is in your mind you're considering blocks/deflects/crits to be part of underdog when 99% of the time they aren't.

Also the claim that underdog makes somebody better than the other literally has no concrete evidence at all. It's just what it seems like.



Foulman -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/12/2015 23:03:26)

OWA, sorry. I made a mistake. I remember clicking on the support stat one day and it didn't have anything to with stun, so I thought they had changed it. I checked again today and it does indeed reduce stun chance.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: How To Make Umderdog Mode Slightly More Fair (12/12/2015 23:05:25)

No problem mate I just want to make sure all the calculations pinned above are correct



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