What if stats decreased certain things? (Full Version)

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Foulman -> What if stats decreased certain things? (12/12/2015 5:24:24)

In order to stop stat abuse, what if each stat nerfed another stat? Like Str could nerf HP, Dex could nerf resistance, Tech could nerf Defense, and Support could nerf EP. You'd get something out of each stat point, but you'd also lose something as well. We might need to think more about stat placement with this system. And spam builds might not be so common either.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/12/2015 6:29:28)

What would be the point of this? It seems to me that the overall effect would be a drastic buff to offense, making glass cannon builds OP.



Foulman -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/12/2015 6:53:21)

How would it be a buff for offense? For example, a STR build would have lower HP, and a support build would have less EP to use their skills.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/12/2015 6:55:40)

It would be a buff for offense because there's now lower HP, lower def/res, and lower EP for defensive skills. Dex BHs and Support TMs would have a field day. Exactly which builds would dominate is hard to say, but overall defenses will be severely nerfed, effectively buffing offense and penalizing all defensive playstyles.



Remorse -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/14/2015 5:10:56)

I think this is an interesting alternative to features already in place including diminishing returns and requirements.

Whether this system would be better or worse is hard to tell and would depend on the specifics of how it works, I'm assuming you would mean similar to diminishing returns, where by the more you increase a certain stat the more it would negatively effect the other stats based on the severity of the invested stat (IE this would reduce stat abuse).

It could be possible that this system may be better then requirements on skills given requirements =a forced minimum, this system doesn't force anything but highly discourages certain builds paths opening them up however from being completely closed.

@Silver,

Depending on the system this would not necessarily make glass cannons OP, you can't look it from the side that defense is lowered therefore offense is now stronger, because it's also the case offense is lowered and therefore defense is now stronger, both situation are hypothetically true therefore nulling any actual change to begin with.

The idea brings something interesting to the table however because if this negative effect increased the more you increased a single stat point you can effectively control stat abuse without "forcing" them to stop with requirements, personally I like this idea more then requirements as it allows build decision and thinking to bring extra advantages to the table rather then, YOU MUST HAVE THIS MUCH STAT TO USE THIS SKILL.

In other words, if this is basically a different version of diminishing returns where by the more you stat abuse the more it negatively effects your other skills therefore possibly removing the need for requirements. Then I support.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/14/2015 5:53:05)

^

Devil is in the details. The reason why it's more difficult to nerf offense than defense with this system is because of skills. It doesn't matter if increasing dex reduces primary or auxillary damage due to powerful dex skills. It doesn't matter if increasing support reduces primary or gun damage due to powerful support skills. Focus builds are the obvious loser in such a system.

What you're envisioning is significantly more complicated than what Foulman is suggesting, and cannot depend on simply reducing the effects of other stats.



Foulman -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/14/2015 6:35:53)

Remorse explained it much better than I did. I like his new ideas much better than mine.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/14/2015 15:16:57)

I'm pretty sure Remorse is a girl, since that's her in-game character?

Anyways, I think it could be an interesting idea, but at the moment the devs probably have a ton of stuff on their platter, and I'm really anticipating a good skill tree rework from the removal of overlapping skills. It would be really counterintuitive if this was implemented straight after that since it would require an overhaul of numbers in balance again, but I can see this being a thing in perhaps the very distant future.



Foulman -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/14/2015 16:09:29)

Ok, i've never seen Remorse in game before, so sorry if i got her gender wrong. If you think about it, STR won't have high HP, support wouldn't have enough energy to spam skills, Dex would have really low resistance, Tech would have really low defence and Focus would lose a little bit of everything to make up for the crazy robot damage we see right now. Everything would have easier counters, which shouldn't really buff anyone. Even ranks wouldn't be all that bad if this idea gets implemented. And maybe HP could lower EP, and EP could lower HP.



Remorse -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/14/2015 21:55:25)

@ silver
I'm a strong beliver in keeping the viability and power of stat abuse builds. However i belive they only become a problem when they lack in viable counter options.

Often the best way to nerf these builds AND keep variety is to increase their weaknesses rather then reduce their power.

This could be as unobvious as nerfing the cores that weaken shields. Therefore strengthening their weakness to shields therefore opening up more effective counterplay agaisnt builds that often rely on short bursts with lower sustained damage such as support builds.

A lot of cores at the moment should do with some tweaking to increase the weaknesses of builds that abuse them.

When battles are more determined by the player who purposly plans to abuse their enemies weaknesses while also considering the effective turn order to close off their own weaknesses, is when the games feel enjoyable and worthwhile. It also lowers the strain on balance requirements as smarter players have the ability to play around monotonous strategies and get a sense of reward from doing so.



Foulman -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/15/2015 1:21:22)

^Yep.



The berserker killer -> RE: What if stats decreased certain things? (12/15/2015 2:08:53)

In the beginning there were three types of builds that checked each other. Strength, Focus, Stat Abuse.

Focus builds checked the Strength Builds with their impeccable defense.

Strength builds checked Stat Abuse Builds by overpowering them with high damaging strike.

Stat Abuse builds checked Focus builds with their overpowering moves.

This was the perfect triangle. the trifecta. By nerfing one category (Strength with the MAJOR strength nerf and the gun nerf) you have pushed users to use Focus Builds and Tank Builds. However, as stated before, Stat Abuse builds will nearly always check focus Builds because of their overpowering moves. So what happens next? You nerf stat abusers only hopes (Gun by changing it to scale with dex, aux by nerfing aux points by 20 dmg) you are pushing users to play primarily with focus builds.

If the game started off this way, it probably wouldn't have had as much players as it had in the past but that's not the point. The point is focus builds are not only boring but they take too long,s trip excitement, and make the game bland. There no variety, theres one universal standard. And that blatantly sucks.



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