Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (Full Version)

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The berserker killer -> Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/13/2015 5:27:44)

Static Grenade scaling should be returned back to tech because in it's current state it's not a reliable enough move to gain energy from or event ake your opponents energy. Afterall, it is their one and only energy gaining skill, their one and only energy taking skill.



Foulman -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/13/2015 6:42:13)

Supported. Assimilation wrecks it in one go.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/13/2015 7:00:33)

So you basically want Static Grenade to be a zero-cost EMP that can give you more energy than Static Charge? That's pretty broken.

No energy drain/gain is absolutely reliable. Battery Backup and Static Charge are easily overwhelmed by Static Grenade, especially on TLMs, which do not have Assimilation. Even Battery Backup + Assimilation will give TMs 80 net energy at 5 focus, which is hardly broken. There's a good reason why there are few 5 focus TMs around.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/13/2015 11:23:09)

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Especially when you take into account that cyber hunters have an emp that takes away twice the energy, and static charge that both deals damage and grants energy. I do not see a problem with this given the fact that it doesn't deal damage, takes by far less than emp, and gains less than static charge.

In fact, most energy gain moves are reliable in this game and this happens not to be one of them.

-TLMs have static smash to take energy, battery to give up to 330 free-cost energy, and frenzy to give free cost energy and hp while dealing damage.

-Tms have assimilation which coincidentally scales with strength to take up to 250 energy (average), 200 if you're not using a strength build, and battery which gives up to 330 free energy.

-Cyber Hunters have an insanely cheap emp (that should definitely stay cheap) that can take up to 500 energy and static charge (which should be unblockable but we'll talk about that later) which scales with support and grants free energy while dealing damage (not to mention they aren't affected by kartherax, which is a great feature btw)

-Blood Mages.... I don't have to go any further. Their energy gain is awesome however I am not liking the 2 turn thing. It should be returned to 3 turns.

Which just leaves merc and bounty, both of which have one energy gaining move that doesn't deal damage nor can it be remotely compared to other moves in its current state.

BY allowing BH Static grenade to scale with tech, the slight buff you will see is 300-400 energy drain max (cap may be exceeded if extreme tech builds come along which probably wont), and bounty hunters only get a fraction of that as their one and only skill to take and gain energy,

So yes I do want Static Grenade to be a zero cost emp that can give you more energy than static charge if that's the way you put it because it's not broken. It's effective and needed



Foulman -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 0:58:14)

TMs gain 80 net energy in 4 turns, 160 or a Field Medic in 8. Against a BH, that leaves the BH 6 turns to kill the TM before it starts to heal loop. 6 turns would be balanced, if there weren't those ridiculous stat advantages that ranks give. A focus 5/4 BH would get maybe one rage in that time, if you account for defensive turns. In 6 turns, you'll likely need a heal, so the time given to a BH to kill a TM becomes 5 turns. And let me tell you, 5 turns is nowhere near enough for a level 38 to take down a rank 80+ player. Oh, and assimilation completely destroys all the energy gained from Static Grenade. If we're talking about STR TM, the TM can gain 100 energy every 8 turns, and if you put a generator on top, that's easily enough for a bludgeon, malf or fire scythe. And for those heal loop TMs (Tech, Dex, Focus), if they have Hazmat, you are screwed.



Foulman -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 1:03:42)

Static grenade doesn't need to scale with Tech though. Maybe if it got a secondary effect that reduced enemy EP draining or gaining on the next turn, that'd be ok. Or Assimilation could get a buff to draining, but it loses its gaining and gets an energy cost like atom smasher. And TLM should only get HP from Frenzy, but it should stay at 0 energy.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 1:06:33)

I don't see why Static Grenade should be designed to let level 38 BHs beat rank 80 TMs with ease. Can you imagine what rank 80 BHs would then do to rank 80 TMs?



Foulman -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 2:38:17)

I don't see why ranks should let anyone beat anyone else with pure statistical advantages. If anything, ranks should only be increasing RNG.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 7:14:17)

It really wouldn't if the tm strategically uses their energy (just like when facing a cyber hunter). Besides, with that reasoning you're practically implying that all classes should be equal.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 15:08:04)

quote:

I don't see why ranks should let anyone beat anyone else with pure statistical advantages. If anything, ranks should only be increasing RNG.


No, ranks shouldn't be doing ANYTHING at all aside from giving people titles and something to have pride about (if you do in fact have pride over showing off how much time you've spent playing ED).

quote:

Besides, with that reasoning you're practically implying that all classes should be equal.


They should be? Unless by equal you mean identical.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 15:34:16)

Equal? Im not sure about classes "should be equal" but that's not the point here.

Nearly each and every class will have a skill to counter this buff to bounty hunters should it ever be implemented. At its current rate, each class can counter bh static grenade with no problem hence leaving bounty hunters with little to no energy



Mother1 -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 15:46:41)

With the way strength is now TLM and Merc's would be hurting a lot more due to static smash and atom smasher draining so little even with decent strength.

Only strength TM can truly counter the current static grenade due to base strength TM's only being able to gain 70 energy from a base assimilation and with focus TM about 10-15 energy more. Not to mention the current Static grenade destroys a max battery backup seeing as it can drain more than 333 energy with decent support.

So to be honest I can't support this change seeing as when it first came out it was broken due to the huge amounts of energy it could steal. Focus BH's with tech spam would have a field day with this move.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 15:53:19)

Sure focus bhs can spam tech but their damage output wouldn't be impressive. If we're talking about how much classes are hurting due to their inability to drain energy then it's funny how no one says anything about chs draining 500 damage.

The point is sure, bounty hunters would be able to drain much more but given the fact that it's their only move then upon draining 400 energy they have the potential to immediately lose 1/3 of that after the enemy uses their drain skill.

Edit: If strength is your concern then it's easily solved by one increasing their strength in their own build. As many devs have stated "Strength builds are viable"



Foulman -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 16:03:50)

BH has no tech scaling moves apart from smoke, which is easily countered by Reflex or Defense Matrix. Assimilation can easily take care of all the energy gained by static grenade, and even if it doesn't a BH will never be able to heal loop like a TM.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 16:29:21)

My point exactly. Sure BHS can spam tech, in that case they will only as support partners in 2v2 (meaning they just nerf and take energy as opposed to actually doing things). One can make the argument that they would be tanky, but not as tanky as a merc on hybrid or a tlm f5



Mother1 -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/14/2015 19:10:31)

TBK

Did you forget about robot damage? Focus BH's can work with robots very well especially the infernal android which is the universal meta bot (meaning useful in all meta's) for focus 5 BH. In fact IIRC back when tech powered static grenade focus 5 BH's were dominating with not only powerful robot damage smoke, and attacks, but a close to EMP nuking ability which was why people called for it's nerf in the first place despite it being BH's Only energy gainer/drainer.

Also need I remind you that back then Every class also had ways of countering said move with the only difference being that for TM's Merc, and TLM their energy drainers were stronger back than as compared to now and the move was still nerfed.



Foulman -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 1:19:55)

Robot damage is for everyone using focus. TM has the best set; Battery and Assim can heal loop or force your opponents to use energy skills instead of attacking or healing, Technician can boost robot damage well above any Smoke+IA combo against a sensible person would ever do and it has two guaranteed to hit tech scaling skills-Plasma bolt and Supercharge.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 1:34:52)

No I did nt forget about robot damage. When you stated the "tech spam" I was under the impression that you implied straight tech. Then again, that shouldn't be a problem like any other class. Sure, f5 bh with tech spam (with the proposal) might allow them to steal 475, maybe 500 max to be generous. If the hunter used it in a desperate situation, lets say 100 energy, he would only gain 325 energy (less than Battery in its BEST case scenario[ of being able to drain 500/b]. The said hunter will have 425 energy now which is susceptible to be immediately taken away to:

->200 if facing any cyber hunter with a level 5 emp
->200 if facing an average mercenary with max static smash
->250 if facing any tech mage with max assimilation
-> 250 if facing any tlm with max atom smash
->350 immediately if facing a blood mage.

That allows the bounty hunter efficiently get one move off, whether it be smoke mOb or shadow arts, or save his energy.

Also, IIRC, bountys were dominating because popular quick builds were strength builds. Meaning that people rarely, if ever, used a shield. Now that strength has been nerfed both the f5 bounty hunter and strength builds have been simultaneously nerfed. So, with everything being said, it's prevalent that with their lack of energy control that bounty hunters are a short lived class meaning that their skills call for them to kill their enemy in a few rounds as opposed to being able to successfully keeping up with their opponent for several rounds. Especially given the fact that each class can counter their drain.

Besides, if a nerf is needed to be made after changing it, even a slight one, then nerf the skills regain. Changing the skill to scale with support was over, and above all, a bad idea.

I'm not bringing up cores such as regen or pistol since we're only talking about the skill individually.




Mother1 -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 2:40:36)

TBK

Off topic

Making all classes energy classes as a band aid fix instead of putting passives back when they saw the update was a bust... now that was a bad idea.

On topic

Static grenade wasn't abused by quick kill builds and strength builds back then it was tech spamming focus builds that did this. I remember when the complaints came it was abuse how high smoke static grenade BH where overpowered with said moves. They weren't strength builds seeing as static grenade was not only a piss poor drainer for them (low tech due to needing dex and strength or going all out strength) but would be more of a liability due to them needing damage content damage output which static grenade didn't provide.

Also the return of static grenade as it stands now is 65% which is 15% higher than what it originally was when it was with tech. So the duo nerf it got was changed into a nerf/buff (Nerf with support scaling but a buff with the return of energy.)



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 8:20:10)

Then another approach should be taken into fixing that problem. Since smoke is a nerf, and nerfs are ment to support/aid your characted then maybe smoke should be changed to scale with support.

IN other words, I did not mean that static was abused by strength builds. I meant that f5 bountys had to put forth little effort against strength builds (as all f5 builds are), because your average player simply did not want to spend the extra time outplaying a Bounty Hunter. However when faced against against another f5 or tank builds, the bh will have problems as the second he or she loses energy control they are doomed to certain death.

I apologize but I see no problem with buffing this skill to scale with tech and making a few of the appropriate changes, if need be.



Satafou -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 11:01:48)

It would appear that you are full of countless ideas but lack the thought process as to how those ideas would effect the game. How unfortunate.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 13:38:50)

I do understand how it would affect the game, it'd buff an entire class.



Satafou -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 15:25:54)

Yeah and what would be the result of that? Oh that's right... The same cycle that has been happening for the past 6 years. Nerf, buff, nerf without making any actual progress.



The berserker killer -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 16:44:57)

-Increased build variety

-Increased energy control

-More flexibility with the skill

I mean I can go on. It is not like I am saying return it to exactly what it used to be. I mean if you are so concerned with the game and doing what's right, or avoiding the nerf/buff process, I don't recall seeing your input when individuals decided to make gun scale with dexterity after releasing a gun that did 125% damage, nor do I recall seeing your input/opposition when black abyss was nerfed right after it was created then released and sold to free players that same year. Ohhhh.

quote:

I apologize but I see no problem with buffing this skill to scale with tech and making a few of the appropriate changes, if need be.



Satafou -> RE: Return Static Grenade scaling (back to tech) (12/15/2015 17:22:15)

It may temporarily increase build variety and enegry control, but that doesn't mean it's better for the game lol. As firstly if they were to do this, it would end up getting nerfed afew weeks later and secondly it actually limits variety in general. You want BH to have equal energy control, to put it on par with other classes. However every class is susposed to be different, unique in some sort of way being stronger and weaker at different aspects of the game.

The reason i didn't input in those matters is simply put, they didn't interest me and i didn't really have anything i wanted to say about them lol. You really do need to think of after effects, the amount of ideas you come up with is quite impressive but dam, very rarely do i even see you expand on those ideas and when you do your perspective is based on that skill/class rather than the entire game's balance (all 6 classes) as a whole.



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