Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (Full Version)

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edwardvulture -> Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/9/2016 15:53:39)

5 focus was that easy build that anyone could default to; it is also the most long-lived and most common build in Epicduel Some might say that there are variations, but for the most part, 5 focus is just an added bonus in robot damage that players get for lining up all their stats at or above 45. There was a time when attaining focus had an actual cost, and there was a time that getting any focus levels below 5 had an actual benefit. I could go on and on and discuss the history of 5 focus, but I believe I have better things to do with my time.
Instead of discussing the direct implications of 5 focus in a balance sense, I'm going to tell you how 5 focus has hurt the game in ways that no balance problems should.
First, 5 focus, as the most common build, has made battles stale and it is the most common build among level 40 "legendary s" who line up their stats for the easy boost in robot damage. There was a time when it was enjoyable to fight Pvp battles in Epicduel, where you did not know what build you were going to go up against, and where you could see a creative build that actually worked. Right now, Pvp battles at and near the level cap are usually one sided against the lower level or lower rank against legendary where you cannot say that diversity exists or that it was a close battle where you almost won. The legendary system and the level cap to 40 has essentially removed any cost to having a 5 focus build.
Second, 5 focus builds do not have an inherent or reliable weakness. By definition, these builds are usually wellrounded with a lean on certain stats but still, there is no real counter that can beat 5 focus. In healthy games, certain mechanics are allowed a bit of not having a counter-play, but in Epicduel a whole build lacking counter-play is a build that has to be removed.
Third, if I was to pinpoint the 2 things that made Epicduel unfun and driven off the player base, I would say it was 5 focus and the removal in place of a revamp, of passives. It has driven off the incentives for players to be creative and for players to actually enjoy battles.
The main point of Epicduel is the "duel" and that is where you actually play the game. I know that mobile games have a faster growing market and that computer games have evolved in its complexity to not as much favor browser games, but I do think that Epicduel has a chance of surviving into the future if the gameplay mechanics are revamped and that balance choices by the developers are made so that they are "meaningful" and not "easy".

Some questions for you guys to discuss are:
1. What are the implications of 5 focus beyond balance?
2. What are the values that make Epicduel "fun" for you?
3. Would you, if you could, be willing to take on an active role to help out the balance team?




Mother1 -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/9/2016 16:03:36)

Off topic

Been a while since I have seen you in the forums also very persistent with your insisting on removing of focus.

On topic

There are more than just focus builds in the game and in fact I see far more dex spam, support spam, strength spam builds in game then I see focus 5. In fact the moment you removed focus would be the the moment these builds that aren't focus will come in and take over.

I see focus as a build choice and every player has a choice of what they play. In fact there are classes where focus builds are rare one of which is TM where as others it is the only variable build due to the way the class is set up.

If they were even going to think of getting rid of focus 5 they would need to address the other issues so that the classes that can only run this build wouldn't be left without a playable build.





Satafou -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/9/2016 16:45:30)

I'm not even going to bother reading the rest as i can tell that this post is utter rubbish. "5 focus is the most long-lived and common build". Considering the fact the introduction of the assult bot was late beta and the first agressive robot was in gamma, (the gamma bot). I highly doubt that it is the "most long-lived build". When strength and support are not only far more common but also have existed for far longer than 5 focus lol.




The berserker killer -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/9/2016 18:40:20)

I don't mind what happens. Ranks are getting boring anyway. 5 Focus are like cake, give them a buff and/or give f5 a bonus effect




Alphaeus -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/16/2016 18:22:31)

F5 builds are certainly not common, as @Mother1 said.

Additionally, F5 builds are one of the LEAST over-powered builds around. That award is taken by the super-dex and super-sup builds, which are far more common.

F5 builds, also, while difficult to counter, are difficult to play. Why?

Well, you're right in that there is not a good way to counter them (esp my F5 build, which has a card in the deck for almost any build I meet), but they do have one blaring weakness -- They don't really have any strengths.

Aside from their bot, they have difficulty with skills. They cannot get the super-powered skills that many other builds use, and their attacks with their bots are usually blockable/deflectable, unlike most of the powerful skills.

Building a F5 build is easy....building a GOOD F5 build is quite difficult. Also, if you look at the leaderboards, you will almost never see F5 builds in the 2v2 or Jugg lists. That, for example, is something I have countered with my build, trying to shift the standard way F5's are played into being specialized for 2v2s and Juggs.

Really, it's all about how you play. ANYONE can make one of your generic build types. Out of these, F5 is actually one of the ones that has the LEAST need to be nerfed, and is one of the less common and harder to play.




The berserker killer -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/16/2016 18:33:55)

I can whole heartedly say that the only class that I have seen to effectively use f5 better and faster than all classes is bloodmage. Besides that one class, its definitely not overpowered.

What I would suggest though is changing the way focus works. Focus should increase every stat, similar to the way underdog mode works. That's the way focus should work because, in it's current state, theres really no depth to it and it's sad that it was so underdeveloped.

As for bot damage? Bot damage should increase based on your bots specialty. For example: Gamme bots special is an energy beam so Gamma bots overall damage should increase with tech only. Meanwhile Lionharts special increases rage gain by 50%, similar to that of support. Meaning that Lionharts overall damage should increase with support. Bots like Ice Yeti, who guarantee 100% block and deflect chance, would have their damage increase with dex and technoilogy only.

What this would do? This would inevitably give SOME focus builds the "nerf" some Players they "deserve" while giving them and EVERY other build type the "buff" they deserve. Support builds using strong lionharts, etc




Alphaeus -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/16/2016 18:51:46)

@The berserker killer


Okay...so, when I first read your post, I thought that what you said would be a great idea. And then it struck me that if bot's stats increased with certain stats, what you would have is each super-dex/tech/str/sup build having their own bot, and thus having insane bot damage, along with their other insanely oped skills. This is the last thing I want.

Having the overall stat boost would be nice, but then what would happen is that F5 people would go from being hard to beat to nearly immortal just by being F5, let alone being good players.

What I would suggest is one of two things

1) Just leave focus alone. It works well enough, "don't fix it if it ain't broke"

2) In addition to improving the bot damage, make focus into the ED equivalent of the "Luck" stat in AQW. Have it apply a 10% boost to something randomly each battle. One battle you might get a boost to str, another battle your sup gets boosted, another battle you get extra def, another battle extra resist, another battle 10% faster rage gain, another battle 10% increase in crit or block or deflect chance, etc....




The berserker killer -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/16/2016 19:47:44)

Well not necessarily. With stat depreciation (forgot the correct terminology) and proper scaling builds wouldn't really be OP.

I mean, if you think about it, it literally will add more depth into focus and another element/aspect to bots. I know where you're coming from but, if devs could find a way to implement it with stat depreciation and proper scaling for each individual bot, this game would be a lot more exciting




shadow.bane -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/17/2016 2:44:46)

the idea of the scaling each special ability on certain stats modifiers will make f5 loses it's identity , while what I see is that the most effective class to be used with f5 is bh , cause an f5 bm is easily countered .




The berserker killer -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/17/2016 3:06:02)

I personally have yet to encounter a f5 bh winning as quickly or as effectively as a f5 bm




shadow.bane -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/17/2016 3:16:19)

whatever a f5 bm do he can't get above 80 % no matter what ! but a bh can exceed that way too much so I wont say it's more efficient than bh




The berserker killer -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/18/2016 1:04:14)

Variation managed to get a 98% win ratio with f5 bm if I do remember correctly




Mother1 -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (1/18/2016 2:03:23)

@ TBK

He got that when certain balance changes didn't exist yet IIRC.




15darryl -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (2/3/2016 2:31:28)

I've played this game for five years and watched it die out. The first time i seen a drop in players was when they changed the stats in health, energy and damage. Although it doesn't have a real difference it gives people the mentality that battles are longer which bores people. Another thing is how they made the both of the robots abilities go on cool down after using it once, now they did this because of gamma bot but if they allow the infernal android to have an over-powered ability why not return back to back robot abilities to even it out. The main reason im talking about the ability cool down is because F5 is actually weak considering that most build have 400 def and res, your bot is the only attack you have averaging over 550 dmg and not only is F5 damage weak they have less defense and res than dex and tech builds and hit lower dmg which is sad comparing to supp builds avg 600+ on two main attacks that are usable pretty rapidly and yet being allowed to have ridiculous amounts of health to make even the strongest F5 attacks seam meaningless which makes it hard to handle as a F5, same thing with dex build im not going to even get into how they replaced overload improvements with a new stat but allow bh to have 2 abilities influenced by dex. But to conclude if ALL classes had a random bonus stat like (Mother1) said, back to back robot abilities and reduce the required avg stat to reach max focus which would allow F5 builds to improve primary. gun, and aux damage then F5 would have a fair chance in 1v1 and 2v2 or debuff the influence stats have towards defense and resistance after technology and and dex pass 45 stats then epicduel players wont feel forced to stick to a dex , supp, or tech build which might be the only good builds for there classes




Battle Elf -> RE: Long Overdue: (5) Focus (Still) Needs to be Removed (2/3/2016 7:05:36)

Please don't post in threads with more than 2+ weeks of inactivity.

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