Economy Thread (Full Version)

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Fallen Crest -> Economy Thread (6/13/2016 21:06:11)

Artix recently brought up a very interesting question regarding player economy on Twitter.

quote:

What do you think about gold being really valuable in AQ3D (meaning things would be priced less expensive, but gold harder to acquire.)?


quote:

Also, by making gold more scarce/valuable in AQ3D, our in game economy will be easier to manage for things like Auction House / Trade.


Even though the game is still in early testing phases, and Auction/Trade is still probably far from now, I thought it would be interesting to discuss your ideas, thoughts, and opinions in regards to the current state of gold farming, quest rewards, and any other future releases or even idea's for the development of the AQ3D economy.



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/14/2016 5:24:59)

I prefer the second option where prices are much lower and gold is a "bit harder" to obtain. Having high prices can easily lead to inflation.
In the pre-beta, we have items that reach to millions but mobs just around 3-25 gold. I do hope that they change the way we can acquire gold (more gold from questing rather than mindless "slaughter" of mobs)



David the Wanderer -> RE: Economy Thread (6/14/2016 8:16:23)

Yeah, I'm not a fan of neither ridiculously high prices nor having tons of gold sitting in my inventory. I'd rather have gold be relatively scarce and low prices.

Crazy idea: (most) mobs don't drop gold. Instead, the main revue of money is selling drops and completing quests.



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/14/2016 8:20:24)

I agree. Quests should reward us with Gold and probably Daily Quests should give higher gold compared to repeatable quests.
They shouldn't go with the same reason that Robina is giving the monsters gold again.
Removing gold from mobs might eliminate botting in the future.



Azan -> RE: Economy Thread (6/14/2016 8:49:40)

I really really like David's idea. And scarce but valuable gold gets a big thumbs up from me!



speedmeteor101 -> RE: Economy Thread (6/15/2016 0:21:16)

http://www.aq3d.com/news/gold/

Well the comments section of the post Artix made is on fire. Awesome stuff here.



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/15/2016 14:13:00)

Not everyone here has a Disqus account or probably don't want to create a Disqus account (like me).
I suggest lowering the gold cap and items of different tiers should fall into different ranges of gold (latest items would sometimes cost more, just like what is happening with Legion Tokens).
Also, having using different features that requires gold.

I do like the idea that Artix would reward Casual Play over "Obsessive Gold Grinding". Some of us here are working or studying, some even at the same time.
Right now in the pre-beta, I don't even know how players would gain gold and buy items in Gaz' shop. Probably some players have a lot of time in their hands.

Again, I also like David's idea that mobs shouldn't drop gold and it should come from a different source (probably questing which will actually promote the "adventurer" life style)
Maybe the staff can learn from the Witcher series (especially the Witcher III) where the hero, Geralt, is a basically a "hobo" who actively seeks out gold and bargains with the contractor.



Irongrade -> RE: Economy Thread (6/15/2016 14:29:13)

The main source of gold should be from Quest Completion, Dailes, Boss drops(possibly, but not an insane amount) & Other kinds of tasks given to the player ingame.
The amount of gold received should depend on the difficulty on the Quest/Task received.

E.g. 4 Tiers of quest: Easy - Medium - Hard - Master (just a basic example)
4 Tiers of Tasks: Easy - Medium - Hard - Master

An easy Quest should take around 3-5 minutes to complete, medium 5-10minutes, Hard 10-20minute, Master 20-40minutes to complete.
Tasks around Half the time a quest takes, but with a smaller reward of course.

So say an easy quest rewards you with 5-10G Max, medium 25-40g hard 40-90, master 100-200
Again tasks around half or even 1/3 of that.

And ofc the mobs will drop items that can be sold to vendors to build up your bank, these items will also be in different tiers ofc, common, uncommon, rare, epic (most likely). With the drops been a lower % the more uncommon the item is.
So I'd say price these drops @ 1/3 of the quest rewards(only for the basic items they drop) whilst the 'decent' items they drop e.g weapons, armour etc should be worth a lot more.

Can't really say anything about what the price of rare weapons & armours should be because nobody will know that until the game is open-beta and the drops are happening because the players will decide what they want for their items, but i would like to see 5 different tiers of weapons & armour, them being: Common(60%+), uncommon(40%+), rare(15%+), epic(6%+) legendary(2%+) with the %being the drop rate from whatever mob drops the item

For example the best weapon in-game, 'Blinding light of destiny' (Artix's Axe for those who don't know it by name) is dropped by the boss 'Undead King' (just an example), so if this is the hardest item to obtain ingame then this is obviously going to be one of if not THE hardest boss in-game that would take a well organised party to take down and then on death there is a 2% chance that someone who was involved in killing the boss will get the drop, there should be 1 of these 2 systems in-game that decides who gets the reward, the first being a 'Dice roll' that is common on MMORPG's where all the people involved in the kill all roll 3 dice each, whoever gets the highest number wins the drop, OR upon death the drop randomly goes to one of the people involved, not the person who dealt the most damage because if that was the case then 1 OP player could easily just farm the boss confident that he would get the drop, which would be unfair.

So anyway, for the prices.. The first 3 tiers will be low of course, whilst I believe 'Rare' items should be around 3-7k, epic 8-14k & legendary 15-30k
-
So 1 Master quest takes around 30 minutes to complete and rewards you with 100-200G a time, so to get 1k gold would take around roughly 7 Master quests, so that's 3.5 hours for 1k gold.
So now you're thinking, what if im wanting to buy a nice 'Epic' sword off a player or the market then it's going to take me 35hours of Master questing to get 10k gold? -wrong. Why is it wrong ? Because think about it, your not just going to be doing Master quests, you'll start off doing the easier quests AND tasks + whatever else in-game, loot drops from mobs, gold-boost buffs etc, so it would maybe take 10-15 hours roughly if you play smart, which I think is fair to be honest.

Legendary should of course have a much higher value as you are most likely going to spend a hell of a lot more time farming for it, and even then if it's a guild farming a boss & they want to sell+split the item then it has to have a fair value for them to split each way.

But again we can't really predict what the prices will actually be, we just have to wait and see.

I would have put a bit more effort & thought into this, but I wrote it on my break but I think it's a fairly basic solution :)
Sorry if there's any random words in there, auto-correct may have changed a few words haha

Signature nommed, as it exceeds 500X100 pixel size allowed. See the Universal Forum Rules on Signature Guidelines.
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=17051283
David the Wanderer, AK



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/15/2016 14:32:02)

we should disregard first how items would be priced and discuss how gold could be obtain and remove inflation.
Again, mobs shouldn't drop gold but only loot. Where as, quests should provide us with actual gold.



David the Wanderer -> RE: Economy Thread (6/16/2016 18:57:50)

The best way to decide how much something costs is to do a bit of "metagame":

Disclaimer: I'm not an economist. I'm using my very bare knowledge of economy and some arithmetic. This isn't how economy in the real world works, but we're talking about a Fantasy setting, so I consider it a good enough approximation.

Let's suppose that the King's Economist has calculated that average yearly income for Greenguard's Middle Class is 1200 Gold Coins, and the average output is 1000 Gold Coins. That means 1000 Gold Coins is enough to buy a year's worth of food and necessary goods such as firewood and clothing. That leaves our Middle Class with 200 Gold Coins to spend on amusement and gifts and unnecessary stuff.

The average monthly output is 83 Gold Coins (rounded down).
The average weekly output is 21 gold Coins (rounded up).
The average daily output is 3 Gold Coins.
3 Gold Coins is, therefore, enough to buy food for one day.

What does this mean for us Adventurers, that don't concern with such silly things as 'eating', 'drinking' and 'sleeping'? Well, from these numbers, we can calculate that:
A simple tunic would cost between 10 and 20 Gold Coins.
A hoe might cost about 50 Gold Coins.
A small house for one person probably costs between 300 and 500 Gold Coins.

Now, an average sword probably doesn't costs more than an house. So let's say the lowest price you can buy a sword for is 200 Gold Coins. This is a very simply sword, made by an average blacksmith with average materials.
We can assume a full set of armor (meaning it covers you from head to toe) costs something like 500 Gold Coins, since it requires more work and materials than a sword, and might potentially take as much as an house to craft. The chest plate is probably what costs more (200 gold), while the helm, gauntlets and boots would probably have the same cost (100 gold each).

An high-quality weapon would probably cost two times than an average one, so 400 Gold Coins. Same for armor: 1000 Gold Coins.
A perfectly crafted weapon, made by the best blacksmith around with the best materials available would be something like 1000 coins, while an armor made with the same criteria is probably 1500 Gold Coins.

Again, this is an HUGE simplification, but I don't think anybody wants to start comparing modern economy with medieval economy (which is a mess), nor do we want to craft a perfectly realistic system: just one that works for the game.

And now we hit the most problematic part: magic and potions. Those kinda mess things up, BUT!

The price of a good is, generally, dictated by how available it is. So, a sheet of paper costs many times less than a sheet of pure gold.
How common is magic in Lore? It's very, very common. It's a part of everyday life, like electricity is part of our everyday lives.
How common are alchemists in Lore? They have roughly the same presence as magicians, I'd say.

Now, what establishes the prices of magic and alchemy is: how hard is it for a mage/alchemists to cast a spell/craft a potion? How much does it costs them to do so?
Obviously, the answer is "depends": a simple healing potion probably isn't too hard to make, nor are its ingredients really that rare, so I'd give it a price tag of 50 Gold Coins: this accounts for the fact it's the result of specialised labor. A "Better" healing potion (meaning it heals double the HP) would be double the price, an even better one is triple the price, etc. etc.
(More specific potions -Haste, Shield, Regen, all that kind of stuff- would depend on how easily available the staff wants to make them)

Now, a mage that sells stuff primarily sells enchanted stuff: they can make a fancy tunic protect as much as a full suit of armor, even though it would give you no more protection than the clothes you're wearing right now. They can make it so an axe is elementally aligned, or is more effective against a certain type of monster. They can sell you staves and wands that will allow you to channel arcane energies, or offer you a ring that increases your endurance.
The price of this stuff, again, depends on "How hard is it for a mage to make it?"

Now, since we don't want to penalise Wizards, we must assume that level-appropriate equipment has, roughly, the same cost for all classes. So, an average staff costs as much as an average sword, an average mage's robe (which would boost your Magic Defences, primarily) costs as much as an average set of armor, the gloves that enchant your spellcasting have the same price as the iron bracers that defend your arms, and so on and so forth.



ShadowMoon -> RE: Economy Thread (6/17/2016 6:27:39)

one of the things i don't want to ever see in this game is gold generators, especially if trade becomes an option. i've seen how much havoc they caused on gaiaonline.
monsters should drop gold. just not enough to influence things to much. such as a lvl 1 dropping 1g, lvl 2 dropping 2g ect.
one of the main things that should be set in stone once this game goes live is the gold to dragon gem to ap to irl money balance
for example $10 = 2000 ap, $20 = 4000ap ect
of course this translates into AC, DC, ZT, ect differently and stops being in balance with at higher amounts.
looks at acs, at first their 100 lower then the ap used(400ac for 500ap)
then it gets thrown off course with 2000ac for 2000ap. at that point the value of the lesser packages is diminished by 100.
then comes 5000ac for 4000ap and it jumps up to a 4000 difference with the last one at 12000ac for 8000ap.
so when it comes to dragon gems, this should not happen
the value should translate at exactly the same amount.

for example, using mock numbers for dg & g
$10=2000ap=2000dg=20000g
or
$10=2000ap
$10=2000dg
$10=20000g

since rares are an inevitability....
a rare items value should be determined by its amount after it has gone rare & should not be banned from trade with certain exceptions stated below. the way rares have been poorly handled in other AE games should not occur here. rare dose not mean limited time only. rare means (of a thing) not found in large numbers and consequently of interest or value. one of the things gaiaonline did get right before its economy went to hell is with how rare items could have been acquired though auction or trade making it so newer users could have a chance at getting them from other players without diminishing the value. another thing is that rares should not be able to be sold or deleted after they've gone rare and can only be gotten rid of by trading, giving or selling them to another player.
of course certain rares like alpha knight(which more can be acquired of afterwards) & the kickstarter stuff should be locked out of trade and have a quest that will be able to remove then in exchange for a bit of gold.



Evangel -> RE: Economy Thread (6/20/2016 16:16:00)

I really like David's idea. It adds even greater value to Gold already being a rare and valuable resource.

Currency not dropping from mobs makes a lot of sense, with the loophole exception being Humanoid enemies.

My ideal AQ3D economy would probably be:
1) Monsters only reward Experience and Loot (Items and Resources).
2) Quests primarily rewards Gold. Repeatable Quests rewards fewer Gold than Daily or Weekly.
3) (Optional) "Bounty" type Quests for Bosses reward a greater amount of Gold than regular.
4) Because Gold is scarcer, Gold-bought items cost less and are more valuable.
5) Looted and Crafted Items probably make up the bulk of the player's Inventory.



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/20/2016 16:31:16)

@Evangel:

We can also add some "gold sinks" such as features that cost in-game gold. Since in the Disqus comments, Artix said the if players didn't reach the gold cap then there would be no inflation or at least they're able to lessen the gold problem.
1. Repairing items if Durability becomes a thing.
2. Remove /join function and add portals/way points which use gold to teleport the players.
3. Probably a "toll" bridge to separate areas or to enter a city although, I'm not sure if this is a good idea since I haven't seen a game with this feature.
4. Transmogrification feature to morph a weapon's look with other weapon's stats.



Evangel -> RE: Economy Thread (6/20/2016 16:49:43)

@LouisCyphere

If Gold is going to be a scarcer, more valuable source, it probably shouldn't be used for too many functions.



speedmeteor101 -> RE: Economy Thread (6/21/2016 8:01:00)

Yep. Crafting will be the other major method.



David the Wanderer -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 8:44:19)

Keeping this alive... I think another thing to be considered is the fact that, currently, sellback is 10% of item's price. That's a really low percent, which has its benefits: it makes you to think carefully whether you want to buy something or not, and helps keeping player's Gold low. But I'd like that number to be upped to something between 20% and 40%, since it feels... weird that the 12,000 Gold Axe sells back for 1200.



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 9:43:01)

Yeah, 10% is really low. I wonder if they could add a feature where the item depreciates the longer you use it. But that might be a bit too complicated.
Higher sellback would be better.

If player trading would be a function of the game, how would the staff moderate the in-game gold? Since, as of pre-beta, the items sold by NPCs are way off the roof. And if that trend continues, player trading would result to higher prices as well.



David the Wanderer -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 10:22:56)

@LouisCyphere: Even worse, if Gold is scarce but Shop Items keep these high prices (which I really hope they don't), trading risks being very unbalanced.



oishii -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 13:56:24)

The prices of everything will change along with the change of gold acquisition.

Currently what I need is feedback on the system as it is *NOW* so I can use that as a jumping point. When I first joined this project last year, the first thing I did was start the flow of gold using monster drops, as well as setting the prices for items in shops. I based this flow on the average / new player experience - you go out and do some quests, get some drops (which are also equipment), sell the drops that you get (I implemented vendor trash as a way to get additional gold) and by the time you get back, a player should have enough gold to buy one or two items.

The best way to test this is by starting a brand new character, with no items and no gold and play through the game (I have done this over 50 times), getting items along the way. This needs to be done any time there are changes made.

What I *DO NOT* want to do, is to start changing numbers willy-nilly before I get feedback on how the game CURRENTLY is. If you feel like gold is too difficult to acquire, or too easy, please let me know and let me know why you think so. Is it because you just don't like the numbers? Is it because there are items that you are unable to get? Are you getting TOO many items? Is there nothing to spend gold on (#PreBeta)?

I realize that because this is #PreBeta, players reach the end of current content and there is nothing left to do besides grind. I consider this atypical player behaviour and I do not balance anything based on that. On a side-note, the Talon armors are only temporary and should not be seen as any sort of goal post for regular players. My goal is to remove these items; or at least the prices of them will be more in line with typical player behaviour.

David the Wanderer is correct in that pretty much everything "depends". You can change numbers all you want, and they might sound good in your head, but often times that does not directly translate into how the game FEELS when you play it.

Anyhow, there are a lot more things here to expand on and still a lot of work to do! But I will try to answer some of the questions that you guys might have!



David the Wanderer -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 15:07:13)

Right now, I have the feel prices (even for non-grindy things) are a bit too high. First of all, I hardly had to buy any piece of equipment since with a little luck and some perseverance, mobs drop enough pieces of equipment to keep my character able to do well enough in the level-appropriate areas. But, playing the game's "main quests" (from Greenguard to Doomwood Tower, without doing dungeons BUT doing Edon's and Jimmy the Eye's sidequest), I noticed how buying level-appropriate equipment would leave me practically penniless: the Soulborne Axe (level 12 weapon), costs 15,000 Gold, which is basically how much I'd have by the end of the questline.
Of course, I can manage just fine with equipment that is one or two levels behind me, but if I get bad luck and don't receive equipment as drops from mobs, I'd have enough buying power for only one or two new accessories or a single weapon at every level up.

I'd also like to stress the sellback problem: 10% is very little, and it gets progressively worse with higher prices; 10% of 100 is 10, and getting 90 Gold is very quick and easy, but 10% of 15,000 is 1,500, and getting back 13,500 Gold takes me a whole day, especially when I'm at higher levels due to reducing mob rewards.

Vendor trash and selling extra/outdated equipment helps getting some more Gold, but that is hardly enough to dampen the huge expense made every time I buy something that is level-appropriate.
However, I think the problem here is that the pricing is too high and not that the Gold flow is too little; for example, I can buy Health and Mana Potions just fine for my requirements, and I can earn back the same Gold I spent before exhausting my stack. Earning Gold isn't too slow, either, since between loot and mobs' gold, it feels like I earn Gold at a decent rate.

(Also, I feel Cysero's Horn of Generosity costs way too much, but it is my understanding it falls under "grind")



oishii -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 15:39:25)

Thank you for the reply!! One of my biggest concerns right now is that there are actually TOO MANY items available for purchase on the vendors; I would NOT expect players to need to buy a new set of gear for every level. However we don't have many levels available right now, so to a player it might seem like they should have new things for every level. If you have spent 13k gold to buy a weapon / upgrade at level 12, when should be the next time that you need to buy another upgrade? These are all questions that still need to be answered ;)

I did attempt to fill out many of the gaps with monster drops; this probably needs to be further tweaked. At the same time, there are only so many drops that can be added to the game because of the limits of our current content. For example, I don't think it would make sense for every monster to drop 10 different items in order to fill out all the equipment gaps for every level, but currently there are a LOT of drops (this doesn't happen in most games).

It is interesting because although our game only spans level 1-12 currently, I have noticed that we are attempting to simulate almost the whole of the game within these levels. Normally, this process would happen over the course of 50 or even 100 levels (getting crazy gear updates, filling out every slot, etc) but in our case it's happening in a much shorter time period.

Unfortunately the 10% sellback price is not something I can control currently as it is hard-set; I would have to discuss this further with Zhoom to modify it. But because it is applied automatically to every item right now, it puts me in a situation where an item can either on a vendor, or as a drop, but not both places.

Thank you again for your feedback!

(And yes, Cysero expressly wanted the Horn to be grindy; though that was probably just a response to what was happening in game at the time. I have no problems adjusting it when the next phase comes)



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 15:56:41)

In my experience, I have used all my acquired gold in buying the Horn of Generosity which costs 30k G. That's probably a "mid-tier" and grindy item.
Anyways, I like Artix's idea that he would reward "Casual Play" over obsessive Grinding as he stated in the DN. I know, this is a huge hurdle for everyone.

By the way, isn't it that players would usually buy "sets of equipment" instead of buying a single equipment per level? In my experience of playing MMOs, players would usually buy sets of armor in probably an interval or 3-5 levels. Unless of course, AQ3D is wanting to do something different.

Maybe they can adjust the sellback price in the next update? 10% is really small when you've bought a "luxurious" item.

Again, I would like to see that this game is catered toward Casual Play.



David the Wanderer -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 16:01:28)

Yeah, I admit I was taken aback a bit when I first opened Gaz's and Yulgar's shops. There was a lot of stuff.
I think how often players buy new equipment is something that will be tied to the game's balance: does equipment two/three levels lower than my character works fine? Then it's ok if I'm wearing a level 9 set while I'm level 12. But if defeating the area's mobs requires me to always wear the best available gear, then I need to be able to get a level 12 set quickly. Currently, the game seems to lean towards the former, which I appreciate; not everybody has the time to farm gold or drops to keep their character at top-gear.

Monster drops are fine with me right now: they're varied and well-spread between the various mobs and have drop rates that are neither too high nor low. At lower levels, my armor was mostly mismatched pieces of equipment I found around. I however do agree I managed to fill all my slots early on, which initially struck me as a little bit weird. I think once the level cap raises, some things should be changed so that there is no need to have a full set of equipment in almost every area. I think only Boots, Gauntlets and Chest are fine at low-levels, plus the occasional Belt and Shoulderpads. I'd make Helmet and Weapons rarer drops, and Weapons especially are more fitting as quests rewards, IMO.

(Also, Re: Cysero's Horn: my main concern right now is that when the level cap raises and it keeps the 30,000 price tag, people will be able to buy it only when they're past level 12)



LouisCyphere -> RE: Economy Thread (6/22/2016 17:31:07)

What if they tried to emulate the prices of items in AQ or DF? AQ, in my opinion, have a stable price range when it comes to items.



David the Wanderer -> RE: Economy Thread (6/23/2016 14:36:13)

@LouisCyphere: Honestly, DF's economy is messed up, and this comes from somebody who loves DF. At lower levels you are stuck in a vicious cycle of Not Enough Money For Level Appropriate Items->Grind->Outlevel What You Wanted To Buy->Repeat (this lasts only for the very first levels, but it's something I'd rather avoid if possible), but at higher levels you start getting 90% of your equipment from quest drops and/or merge shops, rendering Gold useless for anything that isn't Training Stats/buying Dragon Food.
I honestly don't recall the last time I bought a piece of equipment in DF because I needed it: I just buy stuff based on the art, and I'm still sitting on a pile of Gold I have nothing to do with.

AQ is a different beast: while its economy is better balanced, it is based on the fact you buy everything. There aren't drops or merge shop: you finish a quest and a shop opens where you can buy stuff. Therefore, there's a lot of Gold in players' pockets because they need to be able to buy stuff right when they see it, otherwise they have to replay through the quest.

And last but not least: what works in a single-player game might not work in an MMO with a Trading function. When designing the game's economy, you have to keep in mind a portion of it will be player-driven, so you can't just copy-paste the price tags from somewhere else and hope it works.



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