War Improvements Thread (Full Version)

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megakyle777 -> War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 6:12:21)

Greetings. Okay, so I see some people occasionaly say that wars can be a bit boring. Bit grindy or whatever. I agree. I have not really taken part in a war since we lost the Serenity war. Because I grinded the hell out that war and losing just broke my grind spirt for wars to be honest. So I was thinking: how can we improve on wars? What for you would make a war better?

Note: THIS IS PURELY FOR THE MECHANICS AND MACHINATIONS OF A WAR. The last time I made this thread and opened it up to story aspects, everyone said they wanted more serious wars with consequences and that ended with a seriously penalty that only did not not come to pass due to code diffculties and a dead bread lady who would have went mad if we won anyway, which lead to a lot of arguments and I don't want to open another metaphorical can of worms just because i wanted to improve a game concept. DX


FAQ'd this thread so that we can keep it for reference! ~M4B



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 6:28:15)

honestly only way i can think of enjoying wars would be with a raid boss.

a really tough boss that each time a player beats him adds to his defeat. id rather fight a fun boss more than once then endless mooks



xelessarx -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 7:39:26)

Better rewards would also be nice. Runes for example. The runes would be bought with an amount of defender medals and they can be used on weapons just like enchantements in AQW. That would be done via a runemaster shop in Falconreach. Each weapon can have one rune, which can be replaced with other rune types if you wish. Of course, it is better that the runes doesn't give lots of stats or improvements so that it doesn't make the game much easier.
For example:

Rune of Endurance: +5 End
Rune of Defence: +3 Parry/Block/Dodge
Rune of Fire: inflicts -10 to enemies fire resistance for 99 turns
Rune of Burning: %10 weapon damage dot for 99 turns
Rune of Healing: %10 chance of healing %5 of your health on a succesful hit. (Yepp, just like the weapon special of Frost Dragon Head Blade and Blade of Amusement.)
Rune of Elemental Randomness: %10 random elemental dot for 99 turns

And better the runes are they need more medals ofc.



133spider -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 7:49:22)

@Dark Lord Urmi
THIS. So much THIS.

It'd be nice if it would also have mechanics where, for example, it would warn you that the boss is charging up his/her attack and you have to either stun him/her, heal up, or boost your own defense.
Or, for example, a boss starts with zero mana and recharges it from time to time to be able to use their ultimate ability and it's your job to actually make use of the mana attack skill.

Anyways, fun bosses would definitely keep me fighting in the war.



Chewy905 -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 8:27:54)

Remember what happened last tme we asked for war improvements? Ash took away our catapult to make it more dynamic and we lost the war. That being said, a raid boss would be neat. I dont want it to replace normal waves but available as a side-option would be fun.



ChronoEye -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 10:44:29)

We lost the war because we were meant to lost that war. Do you have to start boasting about it now again? We don't need improvements. We won the wars after that.



David the Wanderer -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 10:51:38)

Actually, our WPMs was higher after we lost the catapults. Any war we haven't won, we haven't won because we didn't get to 100% by the deadline. There is no war that is meant to be lost a priori.



Brasca123 -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 14:58:39)

Honestly I can't think of any way to make DF wars better, they already have plenty of minigames to break the monotony, they have the best rewarding system by a LARGE margin and they are small enough to not wear you down too much since they never last more than just 1 week.

Seems honestly impossible to improve them... if anything, I just want more wars because we have far too little and it's a pain to improve the defender medal items with this many.



Meloette Wells -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/24/2016 15:55:23)

A raid boss in a war, hmmm... Like the hero's legendary dragon being brought down/trapped for a time to allow players to bash it's health down before it breaks free and fly back in the sky to rain down more darkness?



Shiny_Underpants -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 3:07:54)

Well, considering that most players like wars because of the communal aspect... why not incorporate that into the wars?
A common room might be useful. Maybe.

Also the ability to battle monsters with other people in your guest spot.
Not AIs; with wars, there are a large number of people fighting at once. Why not fight together?
because it's a coding nightmare.
Just have a timer; after fifteen or so seconds of inactivity, the AI chooses for you.
This is a similar system to the pvp system I didn't suggest because it'd take too much work to do

This way the battles could be longer without a drop in efficiency- three people get medals for one battle (maybe).
In any case, three times the number of medals per battle.
That way, each wave ought to be three times longer.
Or we could scale the number of waves accordingly, depending on the difference in average wave time.

That way people could see each other's characters, and observe how they manage their strategy. And, since I gather the most heavy wargoers are from the forums, you might meet people you know from the forums.

The thing is, while DF avoids annoying hacker and bot restrictions by being a singleplayer game, wars are basically farming anyway, and bots don't make much difference to players here anyway.
The only rewards are Defender's medals, which have a restricted use.

I'm one of the ones who really dislikes wars the way they are; I'm not a farming player, otherwise I'd be playing Farmville.
now someone's going to take offense and tell me the difference between RPG farming and Farmville farming
Still, I play DF for the storylines, and I use the forums for writing practice and for the communal atmosphere.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 3:54:49)

Raid boss would be cool in place of rare waves. A jacked up version of a regular mook that offers nothing different in the form of rewards or a boss creature that offers something worthwhile?

More mobs per wave. War At See is great grinding as rather than fighting just five mobs, you can end up with up to twelve mobs which is pretty grand. I looked forward to wars due to being great for grinding which after the Rhubarb vs. Maz war which yielded at least four levels for me has gone down the drain.

War shops like the one's that used to appear and haven't since the Full Moon War (I think). Although the Obsidian Dragon equipment was bad, but if something not bad comes up, that'd be cool.



fxmybrute13 -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 4:58:33)

Without changing how the DF combat system operates, or introducing new non-combat concepts such as Catapult or Supply Drop, here are 3 ideas :

My first idea is a regressive war percentage counter / progressive wave defeated requirement. The longer a war takes, the more waves you (or us, collectively) have to fight. This could be updated on a daily or even hourly basis, instead of a continuous decay, depending on the size of the war.

Another idea could be a gauntlet, similar to Akira's Challenge. The further you're able to get into the gauntlet, the more waves that attempt nets. Of course, this idea would require an appropriate increase in waves-defeated-requirement, as I don't think the war wave counter could track decimal waves defeated.

A last idea could be varying difficulties of war waves. A foot soldier wave could be our standard 5 mob wave. An elite soldier wave could be composed of 5 tougher enemies, and be worth 2 waves instead of 1. A commander wave could be a wave of 3 boss-like enemies (or simply regular enemies with boss-like stats), that could be worth 3 waves.



xelessarx -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 6:21:01)

@Nagisa the last battle actually had a war shop



Shiny_Underpants -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 6:22:15)

^The regressive war percentage counter wouldn't necessarily be fair. For example, if a player only has time later in the week to play, but plays the same number of hours, they would be more likely to lose the war, despite contributing the same amount.

Also, I agree that suggestions that don't involve changing the DF combat system are probably better. Still... *stares wistfully at previous post



Brasca123 -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 8:50:06)

@Shiny_Underpants. I think anything that makes war waves take longer to complete will just make the war last longer, so I don't really like your multiplayer idea, seems like it would just makes things worse, not to mention how horrible it would be to code that.

@fxmybrute13. Pretty sure staff already said that they can't really make waves that are worth more than others due to coding limitations... The idea of the regressive counter could be interesting though.



Shiny_Underpants -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 9:33:14)

^My idea would be impossibly difficult to code (I always love things overcomplicated), and the only way to make it work would be to change the value of each wave.

There are actually two ways to change the value of each wave; you can either increase the medals, or decrease the waves. Obviously decreasing the waves has restrictions if you want more choices; if the typical method is still available, it'll offer more speed, and therefore be prioritized, over the more fun methods.



David the Wanderer -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 10:00:42)

The staff has said many times that, due to how the game is coded it is impossible to make a quest drop multiple items, short of getting into the database and rewriting the game's basic functions.



Shiny_Underpants -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 10:10:15)

Oh, I thought it'd be something in the root code for wars specifically that did that.
Look, this has drawbacks, but you could drop another item with twice the value of a defender's medal. Or whatever statistic you decide the value should be.
Obviously inventory space is an annoying issue there.

Another possibility might be a kind of bank designed specifically for wars, that stores all war related tokens. That way, inventory space is no longer an issue.
Or a shop that converts your waves into defender's medals, which would be more convenient than the current setup- no inventory space=no rewards, or sacrifice an item.

EDIT: things like the Ateala armament, (they cost 99 war medals, IIRC), except cheaper. You could obtain them directly from longer quests, or trade the equivalent value of single wave war medals for them.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 10:23:45)

quote:

@Nagisa the last battle actually had a war shop


Must not have seen it in the few waves I did. Or we're thinking two different things.



Brasca123 -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 10:37:48)

@Shiny_Underpants. Even if they did something like that, it would only work regarding to war rewards, not for waves, so it doesn't help much.



Shiny_Underpants -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 10:48:24)

^good point. I was disregarding the waves, as @David only stated the multiple item drop thing. I was (probably falsely) assuming that the wave quantity was easier to change, as it was only a numerical value.

Still, from my experience of these things, we shouldn't allow our brainstorming to become too restricted. The staff have the best knowledge of their limitations; while we're discussing it, we should be reasonably open, to stimulate ideas. And there may be a quick fix for something we filter out.
If we were making a suggestion, that would be different. But I gather this thread is more about discussing potentialities and suggestions than outright suggesting things- which is why it's in the discussion, not suggestion section.



Frigus -> RE: War Improvements Thread (7/25/2016 12:59:55)

I'd say we need more war minigames. Let's try something like, per say, a dogfights with our dragons.



Shiny_Underpants -> RE: War Improvements Thread (4/8/2018 13:13:05)

Cough
With Friday the 13th coming up, I feel that it's perhaps an opportune time to revisit the war suggestions.

Now we know that multiple waves can be coded from a single activity (see: To the Skies! from the Black Winter war).
In light of this, it's still a cause of some consternation for me that you only get a third of the number of defender's medals from this. I've thought of several ideas, but like my previous posts here, they're all probably utterly unusable (hence the spoiler tags):
spoiler:

  • 'Triple' defender's medals being dropped from a quest. If items can be merged into two others, it could be merged into a DM, and a 'double'. The 'double' could be merged into a DM and a 'single'. The single could be exchanged for a single DM. As long as 'triples', 'doubles', and 'singles' all stack (possibly as DC tagged items in the bank slots), this would be marginally usable. It doesn't seem as though stacked items can be obtained from anywhere but a bank.
  • A separate bank for DMs, as they are acquired over the course of each war.
  • Some sort of item that gets added 'uses' based on the number of extra waves (wherein each use is exchange for a defender's medal)

    • The other effect of something like this would be that lengthier quests/minigames could be implemented without reducing the war efficiency or DM intake.

    Another thing that might be fun could be mini-bosses where you could invite characters by ID (as in the Akriloth quest, and the Miss Fixit quest). Especially for players who enjoy variety in classes, or customizing their characters visual appearances. These bosses could perhaps scale, increasing the number of waves twofold or threefold depending on the number of guests.

    As usual with my suggestions, they're generally made based on what I'd consider 'fun', rather than necessarily with gameplay limitations/warmonger preferences in mind. So take it with a grain of salt, I suppose.



    mahasamatman -> RE: War Improvements Thread (4/8/2018 16:08:18)

    I'd love to see another 3-sided war, like the war for Popsprocket way back in book 1 was. Or a 3-sided fight like in Chasm.

    Shiny_Underpants: "Triple" medals that need to be disassembled seem a bit too complex (a limited-quantity DM "shop", or button that disappears after 3 clicks, seem like a better way to achieve the same goal), but having quests and bosses that count for more than one wave would definitely be great.



    Cherubic Card -> RE: War Improvements Thread (4/8/2018 16:34:58)

    There's some good ideas here, but ultimately, a lot of them don't address the main concern, which is how to make them less of a grind. How do we actually interact with the war, apart from grabbing a class with strong burst and spamming it. The rewards are interesting, but, especially with the Runes idea near the top, I feel that would be infinitely better for SoulForging, or even regular Forging (haha good joke).

    I'd look at mobile games actually, the kind of apps that are good for fidgeting with when you're bored at work. Without, I cannot emphasize that enough, without removing any of the current options, I'd add on new ways of interacting with waves, like Tap Battles, and others (I don't play a lot of mobile games).

    That's my shake, but I also speak as someone who is very good at getting into the RPG grind-mindset, and thus don't mind pounding out waves.



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