The Problem with Stun Skills (Full Version)

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Exploding Penguin -> The Problem with Stun Skills (7/26/2016 14:54:09)

So I am going to try and be a bit brief in this thread due to my own personal time constraints, but hopefully my point gets across.

Basically, moves that stun in this game have a very negative impact on battles due to their nature: they function as all-or-nothing type of moves where getting a stun vs. not getting stun makes an absolutely enormous difference. Hence, using the skill itself just takes out some strategy and implements more RNG into the game. If a stun skill exists, the stun needs to be treated as very consistent utility, rather than a "there is a chance of this skill doing way more than it otherwise would" type of ability.

The problem with stun skills right now is that, since its nature is an all-or-nothing type of skill, the devs have actually vastly overtuned the numbers. Now we see dex BHs with stun grenades doing absolutely massive damage, and in the past we have seen dex TMs decimating people with overloads that do exactly the same thing. Worse thing is that stun has an even larger impact in 2v2 so the problem is magnified even more. You basically have a 30% chance (base stun chance) to completely screw over your opponents in a 2v2 and make it very hard for them to recover.

So, what do we do about this? We simply fix one of the two things: we retune the numbers and compensate by adding in other utility effects, or we remove the stun part. Since removing the stun part is out of the question in order to preserve the mechanic in the game since it can have interesting usage, we are left with changing the skills entirely to be more utility-focused rather than damage + random stun chance-focused. We can also slightly modify the stun effect and change it into a silence-type of effect instead for some skills. Here are some very rough concepts:

Neutralize: Deals no damage. Drains a percentage of the target's max rage and stuns them for one turn. Has a high base energy cost. More skill points invested does not increase the energy cost but increases the rage drained from the opponent.

Silence: Replaces an ultimate skill (surgical strike for TLM, most likely). Deals light damage, debuffs the target's strength, and silences them for 2 turns. A silenced enemy cannot use skills from their skill trees or cores. Costs a high amount of energy. More skill points increases the energy cost and the strength debuff.

Stun Grenade: If the target is over 50% of their max HP, this skill deals minimal damage but stuns. If the target is under 50% of their max HP, does not stun but instead deals moderate physical damage, increased by the target's missing health. Has a high base energy cost but investing skill points reduces the cost.

Blood Boil: Sends a target enemy or ally into a bloody rage, silencing them for 2 turns but granting them bonus strength and bonus lifesteal. The bonus strength and lifesteal is based off of the caster's support. Moderately high energy cost. Investing points into this skill improves the support scaling ratio when used on allies and decreases it when used on enemies.

These are just some very rough concepts I came up with on the spot but the main idea is to completely rework stun skills to be far less RNG-based but still preserve the stun mechanic in the game.



Lord Zanza -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/26/2016 15:47:32)

No, even though stun is extremely annoying. These skills make battles longer which I do not want.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/26/2016 16:50:52)

That is a completely irrelevant problem which will be fixed if other problems of the game are targeted, mostly the cyclical energy-restoring meta that we are currently in that renders battles extremely repetitive and quite boring after they've gone on for a while.



Satafou -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/26/2016 19:08:09)

I quite like the idea of stuns being replaced by the likes of neutralise.



nowras -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/27/2016 0:32:52)

Neutralize would simply devalue Chairman's Fury. And since they won't buff it because it's a rare core, I'll simply, not support this.

quote:

Silence: Replaces an ultimate skill (surgical strike for TLM, most likely). Deals light damage, debuffs the target's strength, and silences them for 2 turns. A silenced enemy cannot use skills from their skill trees or cores. Costs a high amount of energy. More skill points increases the energy cost and the strength debuff.

Thanks, now TLM focus is useless. Not supported. TLM doesn't deserve such a nerf.
Would fit better with Mercenary.

quote:

Stun Grenade: If the target is over 50% of their max HP, this skill deals minimal damage but stuns. If the target is under 50% of their max HP, does not stun but instead deals moderate physical damage, increased by the target's missing health. Has a high base energy cost but investing skill points reduces the cost.



I'd use a level 1 stun grenade and win any match easily. Of course, not supported unless the numbers are retuned a bit. Like not a 100% chance to stun, or else this would be a game changer.
Edit: Oh, never mind, didn't pay attention for this:
quote:

Has a high base energy cost but investing skill points reduces the cost.


quote:

Blood Boil: Sends a target enemy or ally into a bloody rage, silencing them for 2 turns but granting them bonus strength and bonus lifesteal. The bonus strength and lifesteal is based off of the caster's support. Moderately high energy cost. Investing points into this skill improves the support scaling ratio when used on allies and decreases it when used on enemies.


Tried to understand but couldn't. Can you please describe this one further?


Here are my suggestions about stun moves:

- All stun moves should cost 400 energy at level 1 but, the energy cost doesn't increase if more skill points are spent on it.
- Deals exactly the same damage but, 100% stuns the enemy.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/27/2016 0:56:00)

quote:

Neutralize would simply devalue Chairman's Fury. And since they won't buff it because it's a rare core, I'll simply, not support this.


Explain please. Even if they have similar effects, I don't understand how it devalues the core. Especially if the skill is specific to only one class.

quote:

Thanks, now TLM focus is useless. Not supported. TLM doesn't deserve such a nerf.
Would fit better with Mercenary.


Yet again, explain. There is very little rationale provided. I suggested sticking it on TLM because tactical mercenary is supposed to be more tactical, hence implementing a skill on their tree which can be timed to deny a field medic, energy regeneration skill, etc...

quote:

Tried to understand but couldn't. Can you please describe this one further?

The user of this skill's support improves the strength and lifesteal granted to the target of the skill. Skill points make it so that you get more strength/lifesteal for the same amount of support when used on an ally, and less strength/lifesteal when used on an enemy.

quote:

- All stun moves should cost 400 energy at level 1 but, the energy cost doesn't increase if more skill points are spent on it.
- Deals exactly the same damage but, 100% stuns the enemy.


These are all fine and could be balanced, but why settle for that when we can push for more creativity?



Satafou -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/27/2016 8:04:48)

@Nowras It doesn't devalue chairman's fury. You could argue that neutralise could possibly create a new type of build, one with the main objective of having rage control, something which could possibly work during the way rage is at the moment. The combination of surgical, chairman's fury and neutralise could be quite interesting to see in action.

What i'm trying to say is although they may have similar abilities there is still is contrasting differences between the two. Chairman's fury special isn't only used to take away rage. It can be used for a solid unblockable physical attack (str builds with E primary) to finish of an opponent. Where as neutralise can't as it does no damage, not to mention chairman's fury actually steals rage where as neutralise only drains it.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/27/2016 20:11:43)

quote:

That is a completely irrelevant problem which will be fixed if other problems of the game are targeted, mostly the cyclical energy-restoring meta that we are currently in that renders battles extremely repetitive and quite boring after they've gone on for a while.

It is a disadvantage and the relevance to the actual topic doesn't matter since there is no point of fixing one problem when you create or exacerbate another.

quote:

Neutralize: Deals no damage. Drains a percentage of the target's max rage and stuns them for one turn. Has a high base energy cost. More skill points invested does not increase the energy cost but increases the rage drained from the opponent.

Trying to figure out how this would work. It seems highly situational since you are giving up a turn+energy to make your opponent give up a turn and a little bit of rage. I can see it possibly working if your opponent's cool down/warm up remained the same pre neutralize or the rage they lost was given back to you.

quote:

Silence: Replaces an ultimate skill (surgical strike for TLM, most likely). Deals light damage, debuffs the target's strength, and silences them for 2 turns. A silenced enemy cannot use skills from their skill trees or cores. Costs a high amount of energy. More skill points increases the energy cost and the strength debuff.

So an intimidate that last 2 turns that puts all skills/cores on cool down for 2 turns. Just doesn't seem to be a good ultimate skill because of the low damage. I normally picture ultimate skills to be a high burst damage attack while this skill seems more like a debuff.

quote:

Stun Grenade: If the target is over 50% of their max HP, this skill deals minimal damage but stuns. If the target is under 50% of their max HP, does not stun but instead deals moderate physical damage, increased by the target's missing health. Has a high base energy cost but investing skill points reduces the cost.

I like this concept but the part I put in bold worries me since it sounds like the stun grenade will have max damage with only 1 skill point. If it will be comparable to a current stun grenade that can be really dangerous since now they have 9 extra skill points to use as they want.

quote:

Blood Boil: Sends a target enemy or ally into a bloody rage, silencing them for 2 turns but granting them bonus strength and bonus lifesteal. The bonus strength and lifesteal is based off of the caster's support. Moderately high energy cost. Investing points into this skill improves the support scaling ratio when used on allies and decreases it when used on enemies.

So basically a turn 2 blood commander that puts all skills and cores on a 2 turn cool down? I don't see how this is better than or equal to blood commander for an ally or worse for an enemy than your silence skill. I could even argue that mark of blood would be better in a 2v2 because both players would get life skill and aren't locked into strike, gun, aux, or bot.

quote:

You could argue that neutralise could possibly create a new type of build, one with the main objective of having rage control, something which could possibly work during the way rage is at the moment. The combination of surgical, chairman's fury and neutralise could be quite interesting to see in action.

Would also be extremely difficult to pull off due surgical's high cost and neutralize's proposed high cost as well. It would be interesting to redo a class and give them skills that lower rage gain, has more affordable skills (compared to surgical) that removes rage, and does extra damage or life steal during rage attacks. But at that point it would seem as though the entire class would be built around rage builds. The closest class we have to being able to focus on rage control are mercenaries through adrenaline, surgical, and chairman's fury and they aren't doing too well.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/27/2016 20:52:26)

quote:

So basically a turn 2 blood commander that puts all skills and cores on a 2 turn cool down? I don't see how this is better than or equal to blood commander for an ally or worse for an enemy than your silence skill. I could even argue that mark of blood would be better in a 2v2 because both players would get life skill and aren't locked into strike, gun, aux, or bot.


I wasn't really thinking about this when initially explaining the skill, but its design is circled around low skill points being more of a utility silence skill that's a bit more handy when used on opponents, while the higher skill point investments raises the support scaling ratio to an insane amount and can actually superbuff your ally at the cost of making a 2-turn commitment, which can be huge in 2v2 if used poorly. Hopefully this sheds some light on why I think it would be a pretty handy and fun skill to have.



Bender Rodriguez -> RE: The Problem with Stun Skills (7/30/2016 22:14:55)

Although to a lesser degree, the same could be said of blocks, deflects, and crits.



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