Surgical Strike, Shadow Arts and Atom Smasher (Full Version)

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Legendary Ash -> Surgical Strike, Shadow Arts and Atom Smasher (1/21/2017 1:17:09)

As NPCs do not have Rage but more Energy resources Surgical strike's Rage removal is useless.
Surgical strike's 50% Rage removal is worth 25% of your Defense and Resistance.
Compared to Super Charge, which has the same lifesteal percentage, the 20% resistance ignore is a bit less than what the Rage removal is worth given that the player and opponent has similar stats.
Currently the 50% Rage removal is multiplicative, it weakens significantly as the meter is less full.
For it to be comparable to Super Charge, it needs to be subtractive.

Shadow Arts is similar to Hybrid armor in providing both defense and resistance and low energy cost.
Hybrid armor received a +10% to its old values in a balance update, they were much closer in the past.
Arts per Lv increase is 15 energy and 2% damage and Hybrid's is 20 energy and 4%, at Lv 0 both have the same 70 energy cost base.
If with the intention of only buffing Arts it should start out at 20% and add 3% per Lv as the energy cost is 75% of Hybrid's.
Its only logical that Shadow Arts be given the same treatment if the two skills are so similar in function and cost.

For all other class energy manipulation skills the weapon requirement has been removed, Atom Smasher is most similar to Static Smash in skill icon depicting a mace and its function.
The mace requirement was removed for Static Smash, for consistency among classes, Atom Smasher should remove the requirement and allow better energy management for Tactical Mercenary, which is most similar to Tech Mage in having a energy healing and stealing skill.

For the explanation above:

I recommend making the Rage removal subtractive for Surgical strike and against NPCs only it adds 25% of your resistance(basing its power on what Rage would have done, switch from defensive to offensive function) as damage to the skill.

I recommend increasing Shadow Art's Lv 1 to 23% and add 3% per Lv at its current energy costs.

I recommend removing the Mace requirement for Atom Smasher.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/21/2017 1:26:43)

Shadow Arts reduces the energy drain from direct energy drain skills while Hybrid Armour does not, so I don't think SA needs a buff.

Surgical Strike's damage increases by 1 every 0.4 tech, while Super Charge's damage increases by 1 every 0.5 tech. I don't think SS needs a buff either.



Legendary Ash -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/21/2017 1:47:38)

A case of X does this and Y doesn't do that isn't a type of justification for not changing either skill because of a smaller characteristic that might need reinterpretation of the skill's functionality in terms of specific areas that are outside of normal damage.

It seems you are listing stat growth from leveling which is tied to opponent's defense and resistance growth.
You suggest Super Charge is weaker, which may be a problem of its own given that the two skills have the same base damage/cost and leveling damage/cost.
That is also no grounds to block well founded balance problems of Surgical strike, whose issues you did not attempt to address.

Please post relevant comments and justifications, if you have other concerns with skills that don't relate to the topic at hand feel free to start a thread of your own.



Stonehawk -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/21/2017 13:05:49)

quote:

I recommend making the Rage removal subtractive for Surgical strike and against NPCs only it adds 25% of your resistance(basing its power on what Rage would have done, switch from defensive to offensive function) as damage to the skill.

I recommend increasing Shadow Art's Lv 1 to 23% and add 3% per Lv at its current energy costs.

I recommend removing the Mace requirement for Atom Smasher.


1- I don't think they would give additional effect against NPCs on a skill just because the skill's effect doesn't affect NPCs. There are other skills that are not effective/usable against NPCs and if they were to do this kind of change to SS they should do it to all those skills.
Example: Chairman's Fury, Absorption, Armor Annihilator.

2- SSM is right. Shadow arts might seem weaker but it has some additional effects. The opponent drains less health. And if you think it's not enough because it's an useless effect against NPCs, let me say something. Shadow arts decreases all damages done to you. Hybrid armor only gives defense. You can break through defense with skills that ignore defense, including your on rage and critical attacks. Shadow arts decreases those damages aswell. PLUS, shadow arts is not the ONLY defensive skill the hunters have. I think it's enough to say Shadow Arts doesn't need a buff.

3- Removing Mace requirement for Atom Smasher seems to make sense. Do you know why it didn't happen? This is the only useful (not sure about useful) TLM skill that needs a club to be used. Removing this requirement would simply make 100% of the TLMs to use a sword. The only other skill that needs a club to use is double swing, which is very underused. Atom Smasher is the only thing that makes you think of using a club as a TLM. Enough said, I guess.



Legendary Ash -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/21/2017 21:40:19)

If a skill is losing considerable power because NPCs don't use Rage, but are compensated in higher hp and energy to deal back that damage, why shouldn't players get a compensation too?

Chairman's Fury should be included in this balance issue, but the solution is much more simple since its stealing, the core can grant an additive 25% to your rage similar to Lionheart's Roar.
Armor Annihilator is a technical issue based on how NPCs get stats done, I think they receive extra stats bonuses as opposed to armor defense and resistance increases, it can be resolved by a recommendation of having NPCs use the player's stat interface.
NPC bots can happen but it would be a rarity given that only a few NPCs on the map are accompanied by a robot outside, Frysteland offers a couple of NPCs with the Yeti trainers. A feasible option is to make NPCs primary, gun, auxiliary count as a robot attack every four turns.

Based on a duel with someone using Shadow Arts, its damage reduction is applied like Hybrid in +number.
Its not a multiplicative shield to incoming damage before being affected by your defense and resistance.
That means it shares the same vulnerability of subtractive defense and resistance skills.
Rage is multiplicative based on total defense and resistance, it will do better than subtractive skills.

I think Arts being flexible with a variety of types of damage is a more thoroughly designed skill, Hybrid armor's purpose is the same, to reduce all incoming damage, hence defense/resistance, the fact that it is not compatible with all forms of damage is a design issue that should be viewed as something overlooked.

Perhaps you can provide data on whether Blood Shield, Mineral/Plasma Armor, Defense Matrix and Energy Shield reduce energy drain and lifesteal given that the primary weapon being used in the attack matches in physical or energy to defense or resistance respectively for a reduction.

If it doesn't this can be an additional topic to this thread, I would recommend that if primary weapon matches the type of shield active it would be reduced for energy drains and lifesteal.
Grenades would be affected by resistance as its a piece of technology that is run by energy. Battery backup will remain unaffected because its a pure heal.



Mother1 -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/22/2017 1:29:37)

@ Stonehawk

Shadow arts reduces only reduces all primary damage to you. secondary effects such as Poison, the drain from Energy Parasite and Assimilation Etc aren't affected by shadow arts.

@ Legendary Ash

Interesting suggestions however for the 3rd one if Atom smasher were to have it's club requirement removed, there would need to have another move given said requirement. As it stands now as Stonehawk mentioned TLM has very few class weapon based moves, and Atom Smasher is the only thing keeping the class from becoming a 100% full on sword class seeing as double strike as it stands now is extremely underpowered two the strength getting a lot of nerfs.

If Frenzy for example or surgical strike were given said requirement in the place of atom smasher (seeing as these are also useful moves) It could possibly work out well with the third suggestion on your list.



HwarangxDxArcher -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/23/2017 3:37:38)

Surgical strike is pretty powerful already, and were never meant to be useful against NPC, hell even Super Charge and Massacre were not very useful against NPC...

Shadow art is weak, I truly agree. Even at maximum level, the defense it gives were still weak.

Mace requirement for atom smasher removed? I'd say no, I even want Mercenary's mace requirement for static smash to be returned, because with sword, those static smash will always be better than Bounty Hunter's static grenade, and did they change it so that static smash can no longer miss? I never seen it miss now, that's weird.



Stonehawk -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/23/2017 15:38:30)

@Mother1

Ikr, Shadow arts affects direct damage to you, any damage overtime is not affected by shadow arts. But still it's the best protection against critical hits, rage and other stuff that ignores defense since it deals with a % of damage done. I'd say assimilation is an exception.

@HwarangxDxArcher

1- Surgical Strike has higher damage because it doesn't ignore defense. It's fair enough for using it against NPCs. I don't see why it needs an additional effect against NPCs.
2- Shadow art is not weak. It's just not a shield. All classes have a defensive skill for energy and/or physical. Hunters got those shields AND shadow arts for ignoring a % of damage received, including some energy manipulator skills. It's useful against people that uses nuke strikes and many other situations.
3- Return club requirement for Static Smash? Passive to active turned energy manipulator skills into an obligation in a duel. I don't see why Mercenaries should be the only class to need a class-specific weapon to regain energy. You can't compare static smash with Static grenade. If the problem is on static grenade, nerfing the others is not the solution. Devs just made the skill scale incorrectly. They were considering the max energy it could get with max support that was high, but they forgot to think of how common builds, including focus ones would be weak with this change. It's just a scaling problem. All other energy manipulating skill are fine. Don't try to destroy other classes, dude.



HwarangxDxArcher -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/25/2017 1:56:49)

@Above : Are you even reading what I'm writing?

Because :
1. I never say that surgical strike should be buffed, it's already strong.
2. Shadow arts is a defensive skill and yet it provides very minimum defense, and it requires support to level up, I can't seem to understand how it's not weak, because it clearly is weak.
3. Just one question : Do you still see mercenary use club nowadays? Because I don't, yet I still see Tech Mage with staff and Bounty Hunter with claw. Mercenary got no merit into using mace now.

Edit : forgot to remove my signature



Mother1 -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/25/2017 14:35:21)

@ HwarangxDxArcher

Yes there are still players who use class weapons.

The reason why Merc's don't use class weapons anymore is because

1) Strength (which Maul, Double strike and Berzerker all improve with and require a club) was nerfed to where it isn't usable with a good win ratio and Static smash was made usable with a sword.

2) the only move that made them use a club (Static smash) was made usable with a sword further nerfing clubs indirectly.



HwarangxDxArcher -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/27/2017 12:36:46)

@Mother1 : Exactly, that's why I've been writing to return the requirement of club to static smash.



Stonehawk -> RE: Surgical Strike and Shadow Arts (1/28/2017 9:01:55)

@HwarangxDxArcher
quote:

@Above : Are you even reading what I'm writing?

Yes.

quote:

1. I never say that surgical strike should be buffed, it's already strong.

quote:

against NPCs only it adds 25% of your resistance(basing its power on what Rage would have done, switch from defensive to offensive function) as damage to the skill.
My bad, I thought you were the one that said that. I confused you with the Legendary Ash because of similar profile picture, sorry.

quote:

2. Shadow arts is a defensive skill and yet it provides very minimum defense, and it requires support to level up, I can't seem to understand how it's not weak, because it clearly is weak.

Yes it is a defensive skill. But you have the choice to use singular defensive skills just like all classes (Reflex and energy shield for Bounties; matrix and plasma armor for Cybers) AND even combine them with Shadow arts if you want. Not to mention the benefits of shadow arts like defending against energy attacks and attacks that ignore defense (lowers a % of damage taken so it defends even attacks that would ignore defense). I can't see how it needs a buff.

quote:

3. Just one question : Do you still see mercenary use club nowadays? Because I don't, yet I still see Tech Mage with staff and Bounty Hunter with claw. Mercenary got no merit into using mace now.

It's pretty rare, indeed. But the main problem of no one using club is not static smash. Problem is that all the club-only skills are blockable and indirectly nerfed by strength nerfs. But I repeat, making Static Smash only usable with a club is not fair because it will be the only class that can't manipulate energy with a sword. If it was to be implemented, same should be done to: Assimilation, Energy Parasite, Static Charge, Frenzy. Only Battery Backup and grenades doesn't apply because of the animation, but then Tech Mages and Tactical Mercenaries would dominate the world, unless battery cooldown was increased again (it's already a lot of changes).

Conclusion: NO for buffing Shadow Arts. NO for Static Smash only usable with a club.
It's better to make the club-only skills better instead. The other mentioned skills are fine, except that shadow arts effect is ignored by assimilation for unknown reason. Parasite and DoT-like skills shouldn't be affected by Shadow Arts for balance purposes, but assimilation... I don't understand.



@Legendary Ash
quote:

If it doesn't this can be an additional topic to this thread, I would recommend that if primary weapon matches the type of shield active it would be reduced for energy drains and lifesteal.
Grenades would be affected by resistance as its a piece of technology that is run by energy. Battery backup will remain unaffected because its a pure heal.

Unfortunately, if defense/resistance doesn't affect energy stealing, the shields that makes them higher won't affect it either. Lifesteal depends on how much damage you do, so they already affect lifestealing indirectly. Making defensive shields imply with energy manipulation would require a lot of other balance changes since the game is based on energy manipulations and a single maxed shield would turn your precious energy gain into ashes DEPENDING on your class, which will make some classes (battery users) dominate over the others.



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