Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (Full Version)

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Mr. Popo -> Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 12:26:34)

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but it definitely feels like I'm the only one that acknowledges this as a problem.

A lot of this can be compared to Primate Murder's thread. But it seems like, with the hype of the whole making mages OP and then trying to catch warriors up, rouges have become a forgotten entity.

This has become so bad as to the point that they have been replaced with the term "ranger" colloquially and thought that being a ranger is one of the 3 archetypes:
quote:

Dreiko Shadrack said:
Rogues aren't actually an archetype in AQ, the 3 primary archetypes are Warriors, Rangers and Mages. Given how stats and their bonuses work at the moment, when mentioning warriors we're also mentioning rangers for the most part.

but yeah Rogues aren't really a thing.

This couldn't and shouldn't be further from the truth; especially considering when you first create a character you are given 3 selections: Warrior, Mage, and Rogue. Your no drop armor reflects that as well. There is no selection for a "ranger"


WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A ROGUE AND A RANGER
In the real world, a lot; but the issue is that what is being looked at is means of damage rather than play style.

A ranger, is pretty much anyone that uses ranged objects, essentially meaning that it is dependent on the weapon used and therefore can apply to all classes (warrior, mage, rogue). Now it is no mystery why there is a confusion, since rogues primarily train DEX, and ranged weapons benefit the most from that stat.

However, to describe what a rogue is we must compare the other classes. As far as how this game currently plays:
Mages focus on obliterating their opponent asap with high damaging spells that cannot be indefinitely sustained due the limited amount of MP. This requires strategic conservation of MP so they are not left vulnerable while they recharge because they cannot/shouldn't be able to take a beating.

Warriors do a decent steady amount of damage and having good defenses to be able to take a beating to survive.

A rogue is in between both. Rogues should focus on obliterating their opponent asap (though not as fast as mages, but definitely faster and a warrior), and focus on blocking/dodging to survive because they cannot take a beating.


SOLUTIONS:
As it stands, rogues don't have the means to do nearly the damage that mages and warriors can do, which is a problem since, with the sacrifice tank-iness, one should do more damage. Therefore rouges should do more than warriors. However, good balance "doesn't have to be"/isn't just make everyone do the same thing (making everyone do more damage), its analyzing the core features of a build/playstyle and enhancing its viability. Mage has bloodmage, warrior has bloodwarrior, what do rouges have?

1. More armors! Part of the problem is that they don't seem to have enough of an identity for people to even take notice to. 1/20 armors (probably worse) released are rouge orientated. There was even a perfect opportunity to release a good rogue armor on the last St. Patrick's day event with leprechaun ninjas, but all we got were weapons. Every time we fought Sham in the past we got his armor or an armor relevant to the theme of the event; but the one time it's rouge orientated, we get nothing. The Frostval Merc set is the only rogue orientated giftbox that I could find that had ever been released!

2. Mr. Uber mentioned this in his suggestion thread:
quote:

In the game, if you're a rouge/ninja/assassin or anything in between, your main character stat attribute is DEX, which makes sense and systematically correlates to that sort of fighting style. However, the only weapons that a rouge's stats can benefit off of are bows, guns, and spears/halberds. As an assassin, I own more spears than I do daggers and knives; an assassin systematically plays like a spartan which is counter-intuitive towards our intentions.

Dagger solution

My short suggestion on this is to have most daggers/knives (that aren't thrown) have the same effect as the Hunting horn, where as they may attack with melee, however their stat bonus is based off of DEX instead of STR. This will also give daggers/knives some uniqueness and versatility instead of just being statistically weaker but slightly (but still not worth it) more accurate swords.
Also, just as an ascetics pleaser; maybe make some of the katana's stats draw from DEX as well, considering it was mainly the sword play, rather than the strength that made users of the katana so deadly.

It has just donned on me that as this would separate daggers from swords, this just makes them weaker spears, my solution to this issue would that most daggers boost MRM slightly +(3-5). Essentially sacrificing damage for dodge-ability.

Not only would this give rogues more diversity, but also an identity and more of a viable playstyle. These daggers should't have high base damage BUT receive higher damage boosts from stats, making them only viable for players who actually dedicate the stats to utilize them. This, like explained earlier, should be more damaging than what a warrior should be capable of. The reason I suggest re-balancing daggers instead of making rogue armors stronger, is because it would be too easy for a warrior or possibly even a mage to just throw on that armor and get the same benefits without the sacrifices.

3. Separating block from dodge.
The Frostval Merc's Reflexes best explain my point:
quote:

Ninjas don't need shields. Ninjas have super reflexes that let them dodge any attack more effectively than any shield ever could.

If your going to tell me that they said ninja and not rouge, remember that training as a rouge is the precursor to being able to train as a ninja in AQ (rightfully so).
Someone else suggested this concept before, but essentially having a shield gives its own boost to MRM and elemental resistance. Having no shield (which would theoretically make you more nimble not having to lug around a big heavy shield), should boost MRM even more (to a decent amount that makes it viable, but only viable to the people who have the proper stats and armor to be able to dodge a lot in the first place). Obviously sacrificing elemental resistance, which balances this playstyle.




J9408 -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 13:07:29)

I regret selling my Frostval Merc stuff.

I don't know about the first part, but I do like the no-shield idea. Perhaps instead of an empty hand, why not use Dual Wielding?

However, isn't this too fragile? Most monsters would one shot you. I mean even with 15% elemental resistance there are many monsters who hit quite hard at that range. These same monsters also have high accuracy.

One solution would be to put some stats into END, but would people even be willing to do that? It is the most unpopular stat.




Primate Murder -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 13:38:10)

This is an interesting idea in theory, though I'm uncertain on how posible it is to create such a build in practice.

As far as I understand from your description, the staples of the rogue build should be thus:

Pros

- High Dodge.

- High Damage (LS?).

Cons

- Low Survivability

- Relies on RNG.


The necessary stats seem to be 250 Dex/Luck, with the remaining going into Str? In other words, pretty much the stat spread of a pure build? Except for using a playstyle that rewards dodging and enhances your LS rate and damage?

In that case two more suggestions to add:

Firstly, in an act of shameless self-advertising, I'd like to mention that I've created an idea for a Ninja revamp some time ago in my suggy thread. Is this more or less what you're thinking of?

Secondly, I don't think the staff even can separate block from dodge at this point - it's such a pivotal mechanic of the game that trying to separate it into two different mechanics is too much for the current team. As an alternative, I suggest making a dodge-based shield, something among these lines:

Elecomp (at level 150) for using the monster element, in other words a shield that doesn't protect you from the current enemy, is somewhere around 1.85.
85 * 3/5 (because 5% melee = 3 MRM) would be equal to 51.

In other words, the shield woud provide 0 elemental resistances, but give an extra 51 MRM.





J9408 -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 13:59:37)

^Sort of like making yourself into a "Undead Gnat"? Low Hp, High Elemental Resist, but very evasive right?

Because unless I am misunderstanding something here, the "Undead Gnat" build seems to be the personification of the Ideal Ranger that Mr. Popo wants.




LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 14:10:32)

quote:

Elecomp (at level 150) for using the monster element, in other words a shield that doesn't protect you from the current enemy, is somewhere around 1.85.


That is for armors, Shields have different Elecomp see Lt.Lore's Gleaming Shield it is 1.53 for the level 150 version.
It would be interesting to see a shield like this following a Rogue theme indeed but i also think it can be very abuseable.

As for the Obliterate theme i can see some Armors with some armor skills that are only useable if you wear a Dagger (which can grant a bonus on top) using the full DEX/4 as stat damage and converting to Melee maybe Ranged if it fits the armor skill art.


Anyway i think this thread is slowly going into a suggestion thread so i am gonna stop , already added some itemisation for Rogue class identity, the problem is as its already been said a problem with itemisation rather than a balance issue.




Mr. Popo -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 14:15:08)

@Primate Murder

Very viable suggestions, I don't have a problem with any of them but as far as:
quote:

This is an interesting idea in theory, though I'm uncertain on how posible it is to create such a build in practice.

The way I have currently accomplished this (though as you will see this makes me look like a beastmaster mage) and I hope sharing my secrets don't get my playstyle nerfed:
My character

Strategy:
Let's say I most commonly use Frostval Merc armor.
1. I use rogue class armor to summon black cat= -10BtH to enemy= +10MRM to me

2. Shadowfeeder pendant to blind opponent with Zakiya's Spear for aprox. 8 turns= aprox. -15 enemy BtH= +15MRM

3. Moonwalker's grace spell= +75DEX= +9.375MRM

4. Big dictionary panoply spell= +29MRM for 5 turns

5. Hairmuffs misc to inflict trooper accuracy= -23.5 enemy BtH= +23.5MRM

6. Doray or father time shield to gain all MP and SP back

7. Deal damage until effects wear off. repeat the same process with purple rain spell

8. If opponent is not defeated yet, then use weaker version of moonwalker's grace to keep DEX somewhat boosted and pets to keep opponent blind.

Typically I use one of the three shields: Spell Barricade and Sackelberry Safeguard and a misc that boosts a specific defense type to a total of +33 MRM

If I have an armor that gives apox. 50 MRM then with all those statuses are in affect. My MRM would be 169.875. With my base stats of 240 DEX and luck thats a total of aprox. 205.875MRM.

I typically use Therdna for damage, but if I used the possessed sword that would give -12 BtH to enemy= +12MRM. Totaling to aprox 217.875MRM




Primate Murder -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 14:20:22)

That's... actually really impressive, on the level of the spoonzerker.

Does it work? Like, can you do the Guardian Arena's Final Challenge with your set-up?




Mr. Popo -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 14:26:52)

Overall it works, I would have never gotten to lvl 146 if it didn't. I have beaten the guardian arena's final challenge ONCE, but i was extremely lucky that day, proving even more that this class isn't strong enough, Ive never come close to beating it again. But the main problem is the first too opponents having too much health and the class can't do as much damage as a bloodmage or these warrior nuke skills. And the first opponent is a light elemental which means i have to use my darkness blinding spell which only blinds for 5 turns

The biggest thing that this class requires is set up. Testing with the combat practice trainer, off of one purple rain spell I've been able to have him blind for -70 something BtH for 60 something turns. But it took forever.




Kaelin -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 14:39:41)

We could potentially consider daggers to be "finesse" weapons that can deal Melee damage but use Ranged-weapon stats (DEX for accuracy, STR+DEX for damage). Would rogues still basically be warriors from a stats perspective (high STR+DEX+LUK, but maybe sacrificing STR if a player is pumping up some other stat), and we'd be creating a new style of equipment (such as a weapon that sacrifices damage for blocking)?




Mr. Popo -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 15:20:30)

@Kaelin
I actually suggested a Dagger in my suggestion thread based on Mr. Uber's dagger suggestion that seems similar to what you're talking about. I have 3 potential solutions to the whole:
quote:

Would rogues still basically be warriors from a stats perspective (high STR+DEX+LUK, but maybe sacrificing STR if a player is pumping up some other stat),

1. Make daggers require extremely high amounts of DEX for them to be viable for use. Like +210, potentially using a factorial operation equation (n!) so higher amounts of DEX compound to higher numbers so warriors can't just throw a few points into DEX and get the same results.

2. Have END be more beneficial or essential so warriors will focus their stat points in there more than DEX

3. Both 1 and 2




LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 16:43:33)

quote:

We could potentially consider daggers to be "finesse" weapons that can deal Melee damage but use Ranged-weapon stats (DEX for accuracy, STR+DEX for damage). Would rogues still basically be warriors from a stats perspective (high STR+DEX+LUK, but maybe sacrificing STR if a player is pumping up some other stat), and we'd be creating a new style of equipment (such as a weapon that sacrifices damage for blocking)?


It makes sense for Daggers to do this , sacrifice damage for Blocking since the daggers are soo light weapons.
So Rogues would be in this case less Damagey Warriors but with more Dodge as their Focus which is a great identity.
And i like the finesse part which makes sense again.
At this point we have soo many swords that daggers with some cool effects like this are more than welcomed, i hope my idea for armors that need a dagger to use the armor skill can further help solidify Rogue as a class in terms of armor compartment as well.




Mr. Uber -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/12/2019 17:05:58)

Lol I see you quoted my dagger suggestion, nice, I approve.

quote:

LUPUL LUNATIC said:
It makes sense for Daggers to do this , sacrifice damage for Blocking since the daggers are soo light weapons.
So Rogues would be in this case less Damagey Warriors but with more Dodge as their Focus which is a great identity.
And i like the finesse part which makes sense again.
At this point we have soo many swords that daggers with some cool effects like this are more than welcomed,

I concur, it would be nice for some diversity and distinction. Though I do understand Mr. Popo's position on that rouges should do more damage than warriors since they aren't as durable.




l0rdn00b -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/13/2019 11:20:38)

I think if the rogue gameplay fantasy is a high dodge and blocking, which I really like with Frostvale Merc and its dodge animation, then I imagine having rogue equipment that provides additional dodge or block chance at the cost of doing less damage or taking more damage etc.

More item abilities can be built around this, we already have gaining SP when you dodge but we can take this further. For example; Counterattack, if you dodge a hit this weapon does more damage the next turn, or an armor that progressively does more damage every time you dodge an attack.

My idea would be rogues do less damage / take more damage than warriors, but have higher dodge. They make up the durability and damage difference by having lots of status effect gimmicks when they dodge.
The core gameplay pattern would be: lots of DEX = higher dodge chance which makes these items worth using.

There can be a variety of builds that go from defensive to offensive, just based on the effects you choose.

Defensive rogue, items increase dodge chance/nerf your opponent when you dodge, weapons that blind etc.
Offensive rogue: items increase damage when you dodge, do attacks etc.
In-between: DoTs, various status effects when you dodge.




Mr. Popo -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/13/2019 12:25:36)

Yea a FD lean armor doesn't really help rouges because then we'd be forced to use %100 proc Ranged weapons which would further propagate the misconception between us and Rangers, not saying that a rouge can't be a ranger.

quote:

More item abilities can be built around this, we already have gaining SP when you dodge but we can take this further. For example; Counterattack, if you dodge a hit this weapon does more damage the next turn, or an armor that progressively does more damage every time you dodge an attack.

There is already a few things like this:
Assassin class- stalwart solitude skill
Mana trap misc (literally mage's worst nightmare),

But I really like the idea of everytime you dodge you deal a lot of damage on your next turn, kinda like the Samukematsuri armor, only with blocking/dodging instead of being hit, and doing way more damage.




Mr. Uber -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/20/2019 19:39:43)

quote:

J9408
I don't know about the first part, but I do like the no-shield idea. Perhaps instead of an empty hand, why not use Dual Wielding?

Something I noticed Mr. Popo missed so I'll give my point of view on it.

The problem with allowing dual wield, is that all the other classes would be able to benefit from it making mages more unstoppable than they already are and essentially not shrinking the gap between any of the classes. Actually, I think mages would benefit even more than a warrior or a rogue with two staffs/wands that boost magic damage.




Branl -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/20/2019 19:41:07)

Honestly, dual wielding sounds silly as heck.




J9408 -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/20/2019 19:46:54)

I suppose it would introduce a whole bunch of problems. Maybe it should just stay with Assassin.




Mr. Popo -> RE: Balancing Rogues and Warriors/Mages (1/20/2019 20:00:22)

Yes I concur Mr. Uber, I meant to say something but I forgot honestly lol.

Speaking of honestly. I realized that I suggested that we more armors in general to fix this overall issue, however, that in of itself isn't a solution. But then I remembered that I have been suggesting rogue based armors on my suggestion thread and I mentioned how we should have gotten a leprechaun ninja armor from that last blaarney event. So potential armor solutions can be found there.

I also honestly have a few more rogue armor suggestions that I'm holding onto like a huntress armor and a yajuu armor because I want to make sure that my thread stays on the main page so I can post as needed.




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