RE: PSA: Dexterity (Full Version)

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LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/19/2019 21:41:10)

quote:

Yeah, most people pick DEX right now because of the combined effects of blocking and accuracy. If we take away the accuracy factor, then grabbing END will make more sense for the guaranteed survivability factor.


It is also the fact that Blocking gets less value in an Offensive Setup where your resistances arent optimal and neither the MRMs, which means you are pretty much taking the hit in an Offensive Setup while END acts like a good Damage Reduction effect on any setup,even really sub-optimal ones.

quote:

On that note, I would also hope that they re-adjust INT so that we keep the same amount of mana we used to have at 200.


This is what i would liked to see too,they changed the ExpStat for Mana which only made things worst now,the whole idea of more power was to keep the Mana as it was with ExpStat 200 and then over 200 INT would just not grant mana and be just for pure power as was intended. It does not make Mages necessarily weaker however the Beastmasters are the most weakened by this change since they dont have the Freedom to just go 200 INT only to have Mana for their Summon Guests,forced into 50 more stat points for the sake of Mana.

quote:

I think that as long as DEX becomes a main stat and accuracy is switched from DEX+MainStat+LUK to just MainStat+LUK, we should be ok. But if DEX still factors into accuracy for all builds, then beast builds and hybrids are going to see a huge drop in effectiveness.


FD 100-proc Rangers are also in that list and bank on DEX hard. FD Luna Nekos more specifically, they do want more Damage and not getting stucked on low damage due to needing to invest on STR too.This is why 100-proc Melees would make sense in the fact that, STR would have weighted more on them. Will have to see what they plan for these changes though.




Kaelin -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/20/2019 17:32:08)

@LUPUL LUNATIC: Regarding Whispering Raiment and Ambush Potion, we will probably have a +20 or so modifier to Initiative.

@Lineolata and others: Regarding Werepyre and items with effects that replace DEX, we'll figure out other effects to take their place. We can't say specifically what these results will be, but they may involve replacing some or all of DEX's role on defense or giving players an appropriate (scaled) damage multiplier that assists players with (near) max STR + INT.

@Kalle29: We're looking to make sure that putting all the stat damage and accuracy on STR/LUK for Melee attacks and INT/LUK for Magic attacks doesn't make those stats aren't overpowered. In my early drafting, it looks like we will accomplish this goal, but there are other details we need to iron out.

@Shiba: 64% Melee damage is about the amount of damage a Ranged weapon would do if DEX had no impact on Ranged weapon stat damage. DEX would only be able to cover about 1/4 - 1/3 of all stat damage without going over the 75% threshold.

@Kirya: Full DEX and LUK and an Ambush potion will do a tremendous amount to tip the odds in your favor, (usually putting you at least in the 70% - 100% range [assuming Ambush Potion is just +20] instead of 20 - 50%). We're also considering other moves that'd making winning Initiative more valuable than now, and even if 70% isn't a guarantee, we hope that you'll see it pay off over 20% in the long run -- the enemies that you'd have the lowest success rate against (70%) should be weaker on a per-turn basis than the ones you'd have a 100% chance against.

@Primate Murder: Regarding the assumed hit rate, there are two minds about this at the moment:

(1) Assume enemies have full DEX. For this exercise, let's assume you (or the monster) is using an attack you're/they're proficient with (so STR for Melee). Keeping the current 85% base hit rate, the accuracy formula would look something like:

Chance = 105 + (5 if Attacker has full LUK) - (20 if Defender has full DEX) - (5 if Defender has full LUK)

Hit rates will usually vary between 80% and 110%. If the attacking character has full LUK, then your accuracy (or the monster's accuracy) will range from 85% to 110% depending on the target's stats. It's convenient for the attacker to be guaranteed at least a 85% hit rate, but the accuracy overflow means that a medium level of DEX is pretty much useless for blocking, and even maxing out blocking by getting the accuracy down to 85% may not be enough of a payoff, especially if you're fighting enemies above your level (who tend to be more accurate and drive blocking close to zero). If the attacker has no LUK, then this range becomes 80% to 105%, so the concerns are reduced but still present. Overall, this outcome is favorable for attackers who don't want to miss, but it also means that defenders can't force their attackers to miss so much.

(2) Assume enemies have half-DEX (basically assuming half the monsters have DEX, and half do not). Keeping the other assumptions the same, the accuracy formula would look something like:

Chance = 95 + (5 if Attacker has full LUK) - (20 if Defender has full DEX) - (5 if Defender has full LUK)

If the attacking character has full LUK, the accuracy range is 75% to 100%, and it'll be 70% to 95% without LUK. The good news is that we've more-or-less eliminated accuracy overflow (but you should be wary of items with +BtH effects), and if you're making a character that wants to get decent results with blocking, you can invest in DEX to avoid a lot of trouble. The bad news, of course, is that there are lots of enemies that can block you. Granted, you're not "required" to train DEX like before and can put points elsewhere to cope with the situation, and there is equipment that improves accuracy, but it does compel a character builds their inventory with that priority in mind.

Overall, there's a tug of war between the gratification of hitting enemies reliably and being able to build a defensive character that can meaningfully score blocks. We're trying to navigate these concerns in such a way that delivers balance and interesting trade-offs. To lay my cards on the table, I am believer in (2): there are times when things work out better than average, but there are times it comes out worse -- and if you want to reliably want to at least break even on one factor, you need to engage in tradeoffs to make it happen (sacrificing some power in return for accuracy).


@Ryu Draco: There's an old saying here of "it'll be done S.O.O.N. - Someday Or Obviously Never." We'll try to figure out things faster than has been the KoO tradition, but it's probably going to take months to hammer out all the standards (for context, "years" has been the timeframe before).

@Broccoli: We may be able to provide *some* DEX-only Ranged weapons in the future, but they will be balanced more like Magic weapons in terms of power, behavior, and mechanics. They can at least enjoy the *4/3 effects like Magic weapons do, their SPells/skills can perform a lot better than they do now, and 100% proc weapons that lack a special-special won't take a massive damage penalty (normal weapons have a special that ignores stats, including a player's lack of STR on a Ranged weapon, so traditional bows/guns currently perform far below what they're supposed to). Granted, you're still doing 0.25 less Melee damage that a STR-fueled Melee weapon, but you'll also have a lot more success with dodging, and with Initiative, and both the dodging and Initiative will support pets and guests more than STR does if you go the CHA route.



Spiritual Guardian -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/20/2019 18:34:48)

@Kaelin, First of all, I would like say thank you for answering a lot of our concerns. [:D]

With that said, unless winning initiative is really good, I will no longer have any use for dex, since the range when it comes to percentages are almost never in my favor throughout the years that I played this game. [:(]

That exactly why I don't use any weapon that does status inflictions, because they almost never work for me and when they do, the monster hp is usually too low for it to matter.

Still, thanks again for giving us a general idea of what is to come when the stat update arrives and I already have my future build ready if the tradeoff seems (for me at least) not worth it. =3



red vector -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/21/2019 11:36:46)

@ Kaelin: About the 85% hit rate, was that assuming that monster stats only went up to 200? I never made a GBI thread about it, but I noticed that when I fought Icezards in the Northlands from Somewhere that my hit rate was consistently around 70-75%. For reference, I have full DEX and LUK, and I used Frostval Mercenary Garb, which is a 3-hit armor, and Spear of Awe!!!, which has a +3 bth lean. I should have been hitting 88% of the time, but I didn't, so was it the higher monster stats? This was before the player stat cap was raised.



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/21/2019 12:30:02)

Regarding the assumptions:

quote:

(1) Assume enemies have full DEX. For this exercise, let's assume you (or the monster) is using an attack you're/they're proficient with (so STR for Melee). Keeping the current 85% base hit rate, the accuracy formula would look something like:


Most monsters (kinda dont know any 150 monster that doesnt have over 200 DEX atm) really have a ton of DEX right now so this is the more accurate assumption based on "facts".

What does it constitutes full DEX assumption ? ExpDEX ? As in 250 right now?

quote:

(2) Assume enemies have half-DEX (basically assuming half the monsters have DEX, and half do not).


Well this one kinda clearly isnt working most of the time in practice because :

quote:

The bad news, of course, is that there are lots of enemies that can block you.


Most monsters have DEX so its kinda already something to be considered i think ?

quote:

Overall, there's a tug of war between the gratification of hitting enemies reliably and being able to build a defensive character that can meaningfully score blocks.


There isnt much to say when almost all monsters have their DEX full at lvl 150 so they are extremely dodgy and accurate at the same time (not accounting for their MRM in this context)
Which kinda means :

quote:

Overall, this outcome is favorable for attackers who don't want to miss, but it also means that defenders can't force their attackers to miss so much.


So is hard to believe (2) at this current time without some monster DEX tweaks which are also more hard to believe how they should be done.




Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/21/2019 14:41:48)

quote:

Most monsters (kinda dont know any 150 monster that doesnt have over 200 DEX atm) really have a ton of DEX right now so this is the more accurate assumption based on "facts".


This kind of worries me too, especially when we start talking about bosses, who are terrifyingly accurate. Currently, the major boon of Dexterity as a main stat is that you have 250 extra points to make your character either insanely tanky, or to utilizing pets to their fullest extent. Dodge tanking shenanigans has always been kind of a gimmick in this game, only really a thing on trash mobs (although I've had some degree of success doing this v Rhubzard, which was entertaining). Unfortunately, I have no alternative solution, so I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed and hope the tradeoff doesn't just make me change to a Beastmaster mage, get to cast full damage spells and get full efficiency out of my pets at the same time.



AliceShiki -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/21/2019 19:25:42)

@Red Vector The 85% was assuming monsters with stats capping at 200, the expected hit rate against 250 DEX 225 LUK monsters was closer to 82%. This should now be fixed with the higher stat cap for players though.

@Lupul Lunatic There are plenty of 0 DEX monsters out there at level cap, it's easier to notice when you're using a low accuracy build because you miss a lot less... >.>

@Branl Bosses are as accurate as normal monsters. (unless you're talking about weird exceptions like the Nulgath Void Takeover that had 500 STR that is... >.>) They had an average hit rate of 85% if you have 200 DEX/LUK (a bit higher actually because they overcap stats. Should be closer to 90%...). With the new update allowing players to reach 250 DEX/LUK, you should get the expected 15% dodge rate~



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/22/2019 9:03:57)

quote:

@Lupul Lunatic There are plenty of 0 DEX monsters out there at level cap, it's easier to notice when you're using a low accuracy build because you miss a lot less... >.>



Does not seem like true,for example Amboss while it has 0 DEX it has extremely high MRM which already compensates for the Blocking part. Monsters can still have over 250 DEX and some do have 275 DEX or more which is still way more than our 250 cap.

Neberon for my LUK training had 300 DEX and the dodge was felt massively especially when it also locks you from using miscs.

Most monsters use STR DEX or INT DEX because if a monster doesnt have DEX then is like 1. Not accurate at all and 2.Not very dodgy which means these monsters arent exactly complete without DEX unless their DEX is used for strictly just Blocking purposes and only STR/INT (or anything else thematically) for their main damage + accuracy. Which also favors more the attackers dont miss soo often but neither they block often imo.

And then you have to say plenty means = Half when is not true because Kaelin already stated that most monsters in assumption (2) can block you because most monsters have a ton of DEX.

Also Bosses while they seem accurate as normal , some actually have MP skills or SP skills which i suspect it also changes their accuracy formula way over the normal assumptions ! If you cant dodge those then no much point in dodging the regular attacks,besides some monsters also use HP costs for their attacks (like Sacragon). Some are just pure Nuke or die monsters like Undead Mages when they just use "ALL" MP (cause 1 cast) with a deadly accurate and damaging (due to their LUK too) attack. I assume the 15% assumed Dodge does not account for this which is not exactly a good idea because while we are using skills too, we arent exactly boosting accuracy with said skills just damage.






Kilvakar -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/22/2019 20:32:55)

Just curious, but since it's apparently going to take a long time before the changes are made to DEX, would it be at all possible for us to have INT re-adjusted so that mages and beastmasters aren't forced to drop other stats to get 250 INT. At least, until the other stuff gets ironed out. It's really annoying that instead of a power boost, the cap increase made all mana-using builds weaker.



Kaelin -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/25/2019 1:24:09)

@red vector: I think the old monster standards were build around said monsters having a 200 DEX cap. Alice is correct that a standard pure build versus pure build before the cap raise would hit 82% of the time, and the enemy hit rate against the player under neutral circumstances was 90%. We'll try to build around the stat limits we will have for monsters and players alike. Of course you may have been hitting below 82% because of the particular "lean" of some of the monsters -- we sometimes give them more Defense in exchange for less HP.

@LUPUL LUNATIC: Regarding "Full DEX," this will probably be 250 DEX at L150. Whether we stick with monsters at 275/250/225 or bring them down to 250/250/250 so they match the current player standards, it'll be 250 if we keep DEX as the assumed monster seconary.

The half/full DEX issue boils down to the fact we give monsters DEX most of the time by default. We rarely make STR/INT hybrid enemies, and we rarely give them CHA either (for monsters, this usually only makes sense for cute ones; for humans opponents, the story-writing does not tend to give you enemies who are, story-wise, charismatic). So, we usually end up choosing two out of three from DEX, LUK, and END, and DEX comes up most of the time as a result of this (not because we specifically wanted them to have full accuracy). We'll try to release more STR + INT hybrids where practical, but it's hard to change the tendency for giving monsters max DEX without doing something more drastic (like raising the cap to 300 so players and monsters can use 300/300/150 builds, but I'm the only Knight who wants to go that direction, and there's already been a surprising amount of pushback just from us taking the cap from 200 to 250).

Finally, expect that if we build monster standards with a particular set of assumptions that we'll deliver on it. The current monster standards were built under old management, and we have been waiting to work out other details and confirm what is possible before revamping them. But you will have to evaluate monsters in the big picture, and it's human nature to pay attention to (and struggle against) the things you don't like (and the setbacks of blocking) than the ones you do like (the consistent hits against low-Defense or low-block enemies).

@Kilvakar: We'll try to move forward with the other changes relatively soon as discussed, but warriors are roughly in the same boat -- both mages are warriors alike are expected to have 250 in their main stat to succeed at the same rate, and if anything mages may be a little ahead at the moment because battles should be a little shorter than before (getting players to succeed faster than the 20 turn model dictates) because their weapons/spells are stronger. A 250 DEX/INT/CHA build would probably give you results most-similar to what you had before (obviously less Initiative and status roll success, but you'll have better accuracy, blocking, and stat damage than before).



Lineolata -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/25/2019 1:49:02)

Regarding the changes to caps: The pushback is more about the implementation of higher caps than the concept. A cap of 300 sounds cool by itself and I would support such a change when the changes to stat mechanics are complete, but being bundled with a change in the assumptions that requires you to eliminate a fourth stat just to stay where you were would hurt a lot. The ideal isn't just big numbers, but standard requirements being far enough below the caps to allow flexibility.



AliceShiki -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/25/2019 5:57:06)

*would personally love to see a cap of 300* Well, I'm already happy with the cap rn though, so whatever direction you wish to take things to would be good to me! ^^)/



Kaelin -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/26/2019 0:44:45)

Some things happened more quickly than we had planned for, so we weren't able to have many of the things ready yet. We do appreciate you all enduring the rough patches.

Concerning INT, it's a difficult thing for us to handle, because it's currently a cubic (rather than quadratic) stat. There are a couple options we might be able to have medium levels of INT behave better without making builds more similar or causing power creep: (1) Keep having MP the scale the way it does now to 250, but giving players full or closer-to-full stat damage and/or accuracy. (2) Give players full MP but only make it useful to characters with INT. This will require modifying our MP-based effects (including summons and misc items) so they require INT or instead use SP.

Outside of INT, medium levels of stats are *usually* behaving more-or-less like they're supposed to. For example, if you're got 125 CHA instead of 250 CHA, your pets will be doing about 70% as much damage as someone who has full CHA. The pets will also have less success on status effect rolls: you'll actually do just as well as 250 CHA characters against monsters with 0 in their Major save stat, but you'll do about 20% worse against ones with ~250 in the stat -- but this is okay, because you're sacrificing less pet damage to attempt these status effects, and you'll have an additional 125 stat points to spend that the 250 CHA character does not. You might put this into END for an easy way to make up for lost damage/status per turn by scoring more turns to do damage or inflict status, but about any stat should confer a benefit for you.



I Overlord I -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/26/2019 2:55:42)

While I don't agree with raising the cap (again) to 300, I'm not against raising it to 275. 275/250/225 has a weird type of symmetry to it; 300/300/150 does not. Heck, even a spread like 275/275/200 is not wholly unaesthetic. In any case, the idea of being able to match enemy annihilators (+stat rolls) from a statistical standpoint without needing to juice has quite the charm.

With that being said, however, all the kinks should be worked out now before even thinking of implementing another cap increase.



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/26/2019 7:52:44)

quote:

(2) Give players full MP but only make it useful to characters with INT. This will require modifying our MP-based effects (including summons and misc items) so they require INT or instead use SP.


This will not be a bad idea and would solve some of the issues like :

quote:

(1) Keep having MP the scale the way it does now to 250


So one of the "pushbacks" was raising the MP scaling to 250, effectively if we compared the 200 STR and 200 INT before and after the caps we can see the 200 INT at endgame is "nerfed" because changing how mana works with the caps is directly affecting INT s Power attributes (+Mana Points). My personal idea is we only get 25% more power if we exceed the expectations by 50 more points into one stat (so Mana would scale up to 200 but INT would change to a "quadratic" after 200 , aka "will not grant more Mana (as if you used an INT misc)").. This would mean ExpStats for actual Stats go to 200 , and 50 more points well 250/200 is indeed 1.25 so 25% more power.

Beastmasters that want to use Summons will need the Mana Pool and investing soo many Points in INT just for the Mana Pool as of now currently seems like it restricts the build diversity in this way. It would get even worst if Mana would scale up to 300 if a new stat cap will raise.

So why ExpStat to remain to 200 ? Because we still have 750 Stat Points the reason. It would just be a simplistic approach , one that is not "oppressive" in terms of build diversity.




Lineolata -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/26/2019 14:40:28)

300/250/200, @Overlord. [;)]



Kilvakar -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/26/2019 20:03:53)

Thank you @Kaelin for the replies. I really do appreciate what you all are trying to do, although I still think that the current cap increase implementation has weakened mana using builds. Going with 250 INT/DEX/CHA will definitely make me an accurate, hard-hitting character with strong pets. However, the fact that it means I have to drop LUK still reinforces my previous statements that losing that fourth stat is making my character even more min-maxed and less interesting to play than before, while at the same time making it so that I can now rarely go first and never do lucky strikes.

quote:

(1) Keep having MP the scale the way it does now to 250, but giving players full or closer-to-full stat damage and/or accuracy.


I would support this. Having STR/INT/DEX provide full or near-full accuracy and damage for their respective damage types would make it so that characters could effectively drop DEX if they wanted. Keep in mind that the whole reason this stuff is happening in the first place is because everyone's been saying that DEX is "broken" due to the fact that pretty much every build needs it currently.

However, I would really prefer @LUPUL LUNATIC's idea of keeping ExpStat at 200 and making it so that having above 200 INT doesn't grant you more mana, but instead just gives you the power increase. The fact that we're talking about raising the stat caps even further without giving us more actual points to put in said stats will only continue to force min-maxing and shrink build variety.

I really, really think that the stat cap increase was unnecessary in the first place. People already complain that the game is too easy, so why did players need the supposed power boost of having stats at 250 instead of 200? If it was really intended to boost the players' power, then it would make a lot more sense to raise the stat cap while keeping ExpStat at 200. The fact you're talking about monster stats, effect rolls, and everything else being re-vamped to ExpStat 250 means that the game will literally play the same as it is now, but with all characters having even less options on how to allocate their stats and having to forego that extra bit of power that having a fourth stat at 150 always used to give.

All those complaints seem like they could be addressed, however, if we end up doing something with DEX that makes it non-essential for builds other than ranged weapon users the same way STR is unnecessary for anyone who doesn't use melee weapons. This would be the ideal solution, in my opinion, if you actually didn't want players to have a power boost. If you did intend for players to be able to be a little bit more powerful, though, then increasing the actual number of stat points we have while keeping the ExpStat formulas at 200 would make a lot more sense than what we're dealing with now.



I Overlord I -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/27/2019 5:11:55)

quote:

300/250/200, @Overlord.

"like raising the cap to 300 so players and monsters can use 300/300/150 builds"

Evidently not... If standard mobs are running 300/300 in a distant future, so will players who wish to remain "optimal."



Kaelin -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/28/2019 0:57:35)

Again, part of what makes INT so complicated is its cubic effect, and it's unique in fussing over whether players have full INT or not. This is why I had tossed out some alternatives so players don't have to be punished for all three of MP, accuracy, and damage. If we do go the "give everyone full MP, but make it useless for 0 INT characters" route, this will entail substantial inventory revamps, and we'll have to come down very hard on players who skimp on INT for "0 turn" uses (quickcast spells and misc items) -- 0 INT characters in particular would be able to abuse the MP too easily with 0-turn moves if they just miss out on stat damage or aren't tested on INT at all. But we hope it'd mean that suboptimal levels of INT will do just as well as suboptimal levels of STR.

Obviously players are looking for different things in the game. Before the stat cap raise, if you wanted to be a "pure mage," realistically the only build available to you was 200 INT/DEX/LUK and 150 END. Unless you saw yourself using 200 END, there was no way to style your character beyond that. A similar thing is true for "pure warrior," and a "pure ranger" was effectively just a pure warrior. A 250 cap helps these builds out to a degree; players will still tend to take 250 INT/DEX/LUK or 250 STR/DEX/LUK, but sacrificing DEX or LUK for END isn't pointless. With a 275 or 300 cap, then a character is simply unable to have perfect weapon stats, and then a player has to decide whether to sacrifice what DEX offers (accuracy, not to mention blocking) or what LUK offers (Lucky Strike damage). The idea of having a build that's more-geared for power-per-hit or for accuracy gives pure builds flavor, and if there's something regrettable about removing DEX's effect on accuracy, it's losing the possibility of having pure builds stylzed for power or accuracy should the cap go over 250 (although this consideration will still exist for Ranged weapons -- it's the price for DEX giving a player blocking).

But it's true not everyone wants builds made for one thing. If you want to specialize in two different things (Magic and Companions), then a high INT + CHA build is the way to go, and you'll still have points to throw into a third stat for some flavor (even if it's as little as 150). If you want to specialize in three things (Melee, Magic, and Companions), then if the cap is 250, your build is pretty much locked in, and if the cap is higher, then you have to start making sacrifices (although if you're not getting hounded into using DEX for accuracy, it'll probably balance out), and that's probably how it's supposed to work -- you can't be perfect at something splitting your attention three ways, but you can still be very respectable at them. If you want everything (Melee, Ranged, Magic, and Companion damage), then I don't know what to tell you.

We know some of you want to train stats to mid levels for more personal or aesthetic reasons. There aren't many people running about massive intelligence and charisma but totally lacking in strength, dexterity, or endurance, so having medium levels can be more satisfying. From my perspective (and this is a perspective of at least one other knight from some time ago), 0 in an AQ stat is supposed to mean you're average at a thing rather than bad. Someone with 0 END in AQ can still take hits pretty well, but obviously the results won't compare with 250 END. Someone who still has 0 in a stat can still attack with a Melee weapon, or fire a bow, or command a pet in battle (thankfully training difficulty is gone). Maybe changing INT's role for MP is sort of the last pillar to validate this idea, but I'll have to run it by the other Knights (it'll be a lot more work for them than for me). Of course, just because someone *can* do those things doesn't mean the person *should*, but you shouldn't see the 0 as a cartoonish weakness. And there are ways to make your character behave in a manner more versatile than stereotype for their stats: warriors can still power strength-based "spells" with their SP, mages can still effectively bash enemies with (magic) clubs, and both can still command a pet to aide them in battle. It's more that your stats are telling you what you're better at, with the understanding that you can't have it all.

I can also try to build monster standards around a build that is suboptimal in their stats, even for something as severe as 150 STR + DEX + INT + CHA + LUK. With the current draft I'm looking at, it'll be worse than all the focused builds (at least with how INT currently works), but it's a lot more competitive than you'd probably expect. So assuming players are using pretty flat stats shouldn't make things too easy for everyone else (especially not with some of the other plans we have in mind~~~).



Cleric_Bukowski -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/28/2019 4:06:37)

something needs to get fixed sooner than later. as of now my beastmaster mage is kinda suck. I can have pets and guests but wouldn't be able to have any luck left to actually use them for status effects. They should just buff pet damage if that is gonna be the case.



Kilvakar -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/28/2019 17:17:30)

To clarify, I'm definitely NOT in favor of raising the stat cap even further than 250. And I don't think that changing it so that everyone gets full mana at 0 INT would be a good idea either. As you said, it would involve a TON of re-working and, in my opinion, only serve to add further confusion as to how stats and builds are supposed to work.

quote:

We know some of you want to train stats to mid levels for more personal or aesthetic reasons.


Respectfully, it sounds like you might be missing the point on mid-level stats. The point I was trying to make using my build as an example was that beforehand, beastmaster mages could have INT/DEX/CHA maxed out and then choose whether to grap END or LUK at 150 for the extra health or initiative and damage. Under the new standards, we're limited to 250 INT/DEX/CHA and now have to drop that extra health or damage we used to have.

quote:

But it's true not everyone wants builds made for one thing. If you want to specialize in two different things (Magic and Companions), then a high INT + CHA build is the way to go, and you'll still have points to throw into a third stat for some flavor (even if it's as little as 150). If you want to specialize in three things (Melee, Magic, and Companions), then if the cap is 250, your build is pretty much locked in, and if the cap is higher, then you have to start making sacrifices (although if you're not getting hounded into using DEX for accuracy, it'll probably balance out), and that's probably how it's supposed to work -- you can't be perfect at something splitting your attention three ways, but you can still be very respectable at them. If you want everything (Melee, Ranged, Magic, and Companion damage), then I don't know what to tell you.


I don't think anyone realistically thinks you should be able to build a character who's good at everything. But the whole point that myself and others are seeing is that the current stat spread since the cap increase makes it even harder to do more than one thing, not easier. If DEX gets changed so that you don't need it for accuracy for melee & magic anymore, than I can see it working out a little better like you said. But right now, DEX is still mandatory so pretty much all builds other than pure warrior/ranger/mage have been crippled.

I guess the best thing we could get right now is some clarification on exactly why these changes are being made. What is the staff's point of view on why the game needs to be altered so significantly? Was the point to try to increase the number of different options players had with stat allocation? Was it to make players be able to specialize more in one particular stat/playstyle? Was it to nerf players by not allowing them to have a fourth stat at three-fourths effectiveness?

A little more clarity on why things are changing and what you plan to change further would go a long way to help us provide educated, rational feedback rather than speculation. For example, is everything going to be re-calculated with 250 as the expected stat for maximum effectiveness? Are monsters going to have their stats and saving throws adjusted to resist 250 instead of 200 stats for their saving throws? Are we going to see an increase in the actual number of stat points we have so that we can continue to have a fourth stat at 3/4, or maybe say four stats at 200 for people who want to be hybrids? What are these other changes you're hinting at? A little more information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!



Warren. -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/28/2019 18:43:22)

quote:

If DEX gets changed so that you don't need it for accuracy for melee & magic anymore, than I can see it working out a little better

+1

quote:

Are we going to see an increase in the actual number of stat points we have so that we can continue to have a fourth stat at 3/4, or maybe say four stats at 200 for people who want to be hybrids? What are these other changes you're hinting at?

+1



Kaelin -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/29/2019 17:35:39)

We're not going to change the number of stat points available so characters are required to train in four stats. The Knights of many years decided to stick with four stats, which many players didn't like, and when they gave monsters matching stats (usually 200 STR/INT + 200 DEX + 200 LUK + 150 END), players overwhelmingly hated it because everything was a tank (since monsters always had *1.75 HP from the 150 END, effectively giving players just 4 / (1.75) = ~2.3 spell casts if rescaled to 0 END, and because all the battles were slow).

Dexterity won't be "mandatory" in the future, so if you're training 150 - 250 in DEX because you feel like it's required (for its accuracy role) rather than its other effects, then you'll be able to dump those points into something else instead. If you're going to focus on two things, like being a beastmaster and a mage, you'll just need INT + CHA + LUK to maximize damage per turn. If we move the cap higher (like to 275), you'll have to sacrifice some LUK (it's the price for being a "hybrid"), but you should still be very close to maximum damage in each category.

It's ultimately a judgment call what makes for a better game. If the choice boils down to "everyone has to train at least four stats" and "everyone has to train at least three stats, and spreading out to four will usually hurt their efficiency by some percentage," you can expect the Knights to stick with the the second choice. As I mentioned in my prior post, I plan for the monsters to be a fair fight for players who have more-spread stats, so you shouldn't be left in a bad if you don't maximally focus your character.



Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/30/2019 5:33:13)


Kaelin,
would it be possible to adjust/remove the stat bonus to BTH from DEX to Main stat STR(Warrior/Ranged), INT(Mage), CHA(Pet&Guest)?
Or, adjust/remove the stat bonus to BTH from DEX to LUK instead?

You can have 0 DEX build, you sacrifice your Blocking Defenses inexchange for some more BTH from Main stat or LUK.
Players can have a chance of First Strike, using status effects and getting the full damage of Lucky Strikes +LUK*3/8 bonus.
0 DEX/END Beast builds can have some more BTH and can deal full damage 250 STR/CHA/LUK, 250 INT/CHA/LUK.

Pure builds, a lot of HP, can use some more skills (+ Essence Orb) which can deal some more damage and can compete with Beast builds.
Pure Warrior 250 STR/END/LUK, Pure Mage 250 INT/END/LUK.
Pure Ranger 250 STR/DEX, 100 END, 150 LUK or 250 DEX/END/LUK if DEX would be adjusted as Main stat for Ranger only.





Aura Knight -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/30/2019 17:36:39)

Things were a lot simpler before. This update so far has been completely unnecessary and hasn't done a thing to close the gap between builds. It only makes it difficult to have good stats now. If you ask me, you all made the change before everything was ready and I think it should all be reversed until you finalize every detail so we don't have to deal with subpar builds until you decide to finally finish it. And just what was wrong with having 200 as a max stat? I thought everything was fine that way. This update just seems like a mistake and so few people asked for it. We should not be allowed to have more stats unless that comes with a level increase.



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