RE: The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved (Full Version)

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AliceShiki -> RE: The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved (10/16/2019 3:16:44)

@Lord Tenebros Remember that the people that visit forums are the loud minority. While it's certainly true stuff like CIT, boosters, Purple Rain, Shadowfeeder Pendant, Essence Orb, Terror Snarl and what not are often used by people over here, it's a lot harder to judge how many people that play this game actually use those things. Again, not everyone plays meta.

Regarding the void damage thing though... Just what weapon were you using for Void Damage? Because the only weapon that deals Void Damage in the game is the Temp DB if memory serves me right, and I'm pretty sure Mayhem with Void Damage will outclass Carnage on 75% res by a considerable margin.

... If you're using Harm damage however, then you're comparing 1.8*75% VS 100%, its obvious Carnage will win in this case. A better comparison would be Mayhem against 130% VS Carnage against 70%, which should give about equal results.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved (10/16/2019 6:22:18)

In my previous posts, I tried to explain without numbers. This was, in hindsight, a bad idea. Instead, I decided to use the spreadsheet @AliceShiki created to run a few numbers. The following assumes 250 STR/DEX/INT/LUK (so maximum damage).When I ran the mayhem skill for void damage:

Mayhem average damage assuming void: 1375.546477
Carnage average damage assuming 75%: 958.8143549
Carnage average damage assuming 108%: 1380.692671


I hadn't checked the numbers when I was talking with @Lord Tenebros about carnage outdamaging on 75% resists. However, I also found that when using Carnage on anything above 108% resistances, it outdamages Mayhem. Now, comparing it to a standard attack. I assumed a 130% resistance, as is standard. I kept the monster defences standard across both:

Mayhem average damage assuming 130%: 894.1052098
The above plus a *1.2 damage misc: 1072.926252

Comparing that to a standard FO attacks

Standard FO attack
Melee: 586.1939455
Magic: 458.5016893

So, as has already been described, it is doing about 1.5x the damage of a standard melee attack. Going further:

With Zealot's wrath:
Melee: 674.1230374
Magic: 527.2769426

plus a *1.2 damage misc
Melee: 808.9476448
Magic: 632.7323312

So, by using a standard damage misc and Zealot's wrath (baring in mind, this doesn't include LS bonuses) we're doing almost as much as the skill. Then we get onto the fun numbers:

Standard Weapon-based skill in FO
Melee: 1016.028647
Magic: 1016.028647

plus Zealot's wrath:
Melee: 1168.432945
Magic: 1168.432945

plus a *1.2 damage misc:
Melee: 1402.119533
Magic: 1402.119533

True, with the above I didn't add potential spellboosters (not that there are many available). I could have gone much further, adding boosters and the like, but omitted them because it would only ramp up the differences further. The fact: Mayhem doesn't do a lot of damage compared to even a Weapon-based equivalent, let alone one with runaway boosters.



Lord Tenebros -> RE: The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved (10/16/2019 8:56:52)

CH4OTIC, thank you very much for providing a mathematical argument, as this was something that I also neglected and therefore severely weakened the validity of my posts in hindsight. I also realize that my statement of Carnage 70% outdamaging Mayhem Void was incorrect. With that being said, there is still more than enough compelling evidence in the above post to expose the weakness of the Mayhem skill.

I was talking more about the Mayhem skill on Discord to better educate myself on WHY Mayhem is weak from a balance standpoint as well as the obvious reasons stated above, and nivp (or gavers) was generous enough to calculate the elecomp that the Mayhem skill SHOULD be getting, but currently doesn't.

quote:



To calculate elecomp we need to follow the following Formula:
Note that I skip some steps for the sake of argument that would only make this a more compelling one.

$element_Compensation_Mod = (Damage_Taken_Mod / Damage_Dealt_Mod) * Blocking_Mod * Armor_lean_Mod / 0.9

We originally need to find a minimum among several of these, but let's assume a "worst case scenario" where we don't benefit from neither the armor's element nor the armor's blocking, making the new formula the following:
$element_Compensation_Mod = 1 * 1 * Armor_lean_Mod / 0.9

Or rather:
$element_Compensation_Mod = Armor_lean_Mod / 0.9

The formula for armor lean is:
Armor_lean_Mod = ( ([Armor Lean] - 1)/2 +1 )

Which for a FO armor be 1.125

So:
$element_Compensation_Mod = 1.125 / 0.9 = 1.25

The last step to get the number from this result:
Elemental Compensation = 5*( Elemental_Compensation_Mod / (4 + Elemental_Compensation_Mod) )

Which for this armor will be:
Elemental Compensation = 5*( 5/4 / (4 + 5/4) ) = 1.1904761, so 1.19 or 1.20 depending on rounding.

So elecomp is being incorrectly ignored, since armor skills now factor it in.



At this point, I am willing to scale back my request to simply factor in the elecomp that Mayhem SHOULD be getting, but currently doesn't.

While correctly factoring in the Elecomp for Mayhem may not make the skill immediately viable in comparison to Weapon-based skills, the skill would at least be mathematically balanced and have the potential to become viable once Spell-based skills as a whole are balanced in the near future. Right now, Mayhem does not even fit this category since it doesn't have Elecomp.

...although I can't help but wonder if a Berserk status would be easier for Imry to program in at this point :P



lolerster -> RE: The Problem with the War Armor's Mayhem Skill and How It Can Be Improved (10/16/2019 11:22:34)

Even if it gets the 19% mod will you ever use it lol? Because of the FO status, I agree it should have the 19% mod. However, realistically it's just a FO fire armor with a fire spell-based skill with a pretty strong fear. Even if they fix the old standard armors and CIT, Mayhem's position doesn't change whatsoever.



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