RE: Guests (Full Version)

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The_element -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 8:28:50)

@ballistik- After the quote, I literally explained what that sentence meant.

quote:

This implies that I was saying ChW can complete the gauntlet, but obviously with some difficulty and not as easily as the individual corrupted seven challenge. I think you misinterpreted my sentence in my last post.


In terms of the videos, my point still stands- YouTube isn't a good example, because it can make any class and strategy seem OP in the right hands. Based on those videos, it would make it seem using maximum MPM defence is overpowered. It obviously isn't, or else almost every inn challenge would use high MPM def as optimal equipment. I could probably find more videos like these on YouTube, but I assume you're already aware of these.

I think these would be adequate solutions:

Guests as meat shields- Code the Pandora fight and possibly subsequent fights so they focus only on the player
Pirate guests- Change the blinds so they don't stack (?)
Pet dragon and baby chimera- Change future battles, such that their shields cannot be used in a single battle
Guest stuns- Make Pandora Ex and subsequent single inn bosses have 300 immobility instead of the current standard 200 immobility resist



Mooselim -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 8:31:35)

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall, or that my arguments are being completely overlooked. The fact that Dragonfable is a single-player game does not mean that it should not be balanced. The fact that people are able to choose not to use them does not mean that overpowered strategies should not be balanced. This chain of logic is again, absolutely baffling and I've yet to get an explanation or defense of it apart from the argument itself just being repeated.

@Spirit of Greed
quote:

A know it's an unpopular oppinion here but i don't get it why so many people upset about it. Honestly i don't like where this topic goes. Some people just can't beat the challenge bosses, some just don't like very hard boss fights and they use guests to make it a little easier. These fights are still very hard guests or no guests.
Is it unfair? No i don't think so. It's part of the game and it's up to the player if he use it.
Even though i don't use guests i think it's really unfair towards other players to ban guests.

Yes, it is part of the game. So is Doom Knight Variant One - yet it was banned from the inn. By your logic, it shouldn't have been banned because it was part of the game and people could just choose not to use it? If you want to give the defense that DMKV1 is rare, then I could turn and point at another bug - for example, a certain weapon special giving an insane and clearly unintended damage multiplier, that allowed hits of upwards of 20,000. Again, you could just choose not to use it, so it shouldn't be adjusted and it should be allowed! It's a single player game after all.

DF is a game that has clearly tried to be balanced, and the defense of "It's just a singleplayer game/you can choose not to use it" A. adds nothing new to this discussion and B. clearly goes against what the devs are trying to accomplish.

I would like to also say that your point of "these fights are very hard guests or no guests" isn't really accurate. There's a reason why Pandora EX was killed using guests almost immediately, and wasn't killed solo cheeseless for one or two whole days. Something that shouldn't be buried is the issue of random targeting being a huge factor as to why guests are so strong, and why a kill like this was possible.



xelessarx -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 8:38:53)

Ah yes yes, it was just an assumption if the things were different that this would be a better way to introduce harder challenges. I know that we only have two devs and inn is to take their load off. The current way the harder challenges are juxtapositioned is what makes inn more of a chore and less fun recently at least for me and probably someother guys. What I mean is that even if the difficulty will keep on this pace, I'd like to see chiller challenges in between more often. Of course, not dragon challenges level. Something rather like Primordials/Dominion difficulty level where you could also beat them efficiently with many different strategies and classes. But again, I am not saying that hard challenges should disappear. Just not juxtapositioned like recently.



BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 8:41:17)

quote:

In terms of the videos, my point still stands- YouTube isn't a good example, because it can make any class and strategy seem OP in the right hands. Based on those videos, it would make it seem using maximum MPM defence is overpowered. It obviously isn't, or else almost every inn challenge would use high MPM def as optimal equipment. I could probably find more videos like these on YouTube, but I assume you're already aware of these.
The point was that if you look at literally any video with Guests in it, you can see how much easier it becomes than if a class was doing it solo. Not just one specific challenge, guests trivialize all challenges. That is our point.

quote:

Pirate guests- Change the blinds so they don't stack (?)
You don't stack them, you use them back to back and loop a large blind.

quote:

Pet dragon and baby chimera- Change future battles, such that their shields cannot be used in a single battle
They are not overpowered, I have mentioned already that they have large cooldowns and only one of them goes down at a time, they do not need to be nerfed, please do not ask for a nerf, Chimera Shield is essentially a BPD Zard Burger that you don't have to buy every time you want to use it and you'll realistically only use once per battle.

The 300 Immobility solution is admittedly a pretty good one, but that still leaves the issue of guests tanking hits and stuff. I don't think that making the player the spotlight of all attacks would be balanced either because then you would eat hits of extra damage while not gaining much benefit from using guests.

@xelessarx, you can beat Pandora EX with a variety of strategies, such as by using Chaosweaver, Cryptic, BSW, all Epochs, and Archivist, all of which have video guides on YouTube. EE, CDE, and Arch were done without extra potions or food so they can be replicated very easily with extra pots or food if you need them.



ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 8:45:29)

@The_element - I literally told you that the gauntlet was completed easily with ChW immediately. Your point is not correct.

And I can't believe that you would post my video, I would explain to you why it's not a good example and you'll still go on about your point. It's MY video. The description states that it is not an easy strategy to achieve. It doesn't make base rogue look overpowered. Rogue base is a bad class. It just shows what you can achieve with high MPM. There being an youtube video of a class completing a challenge doesn't mean it was easy. The CLL ancient video required a VIK proc and the right gear. The GPS video also required high MPM and careful planning. Those videos are examples of what you can achieve with a lot of brainstorming. I think it's perfectly visible from those 3 ancient videos that it was not something easy.

Again, the technomancer & guests videos state in their description that they are easy. If you watch the videos you can also see there wasn't any gear planning or careful consideration of mechanics.



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 9:36:29)

@BluuHorseOfficial

quote:

You don't stack them, you use them back to back and loop a large blind.


I see, but wouldn't that still rely on quite a bit of RNG, either to miss or to hit one of your meat shields with a buffed up attack. I wouldn't know too much about the pirates, because I'm not a fan of them tbh.

quote:

They are not overpowered, I have mentioned already that they have large cooldowns and only one of them goes down at a time, they do not need to be nerfed, please do not ask for a nerf, Chimera Shield is essentially a BPD Zard Burger that you don't have to buy every time you want to use it and you'll realistically only use once per battle.


Combining both provide 5 turns of pure defence, which allows you to wombo combo with an offensive class to do a lot of damage. Or if you're using a more balanced hybrid class with 2 turn uptime and 5 turn cooldown shield, you can effectively go:

Class shield ---> Chimera shield ---> Class shield again ---> Pet dragon shield

That's 9 turns of defence, not including any other stuff like blinds, debuffs or zardburger. It also means another shielding pet can never be released without dramatically increasing player durability.

quote:

The 300 Immobility solution is admittedly a pretty good one, but that still leaves the issue of guests tanking hits and stuff. I don't think that making the player the spotlight of all attacks would be balanced either because then you would eat hits of extra damage while not gaining much benefit from using guests.


I think the classes that are supposed to gain the most benefit from guests are beast master builds. For example, you could use pirate with 200 CHA and 200 END along with Nythera and Bk3 Artix as guests; you use pirates' blinds to protect yourself and your guests, whilst your guests focus on damage dealing.

@ ballistik- After the quote, I literally explained what that sentence meant, unless you're going to argue that the gauntlet was as easy as the individual corrupted seven challenge, I don't see what your point is.

quote:

This implies that I was saying ChW can complete the gauntlet, but obviously with some difficulty and not as easily as the individual corrupted seven challenge. I think you misinterpreted my sentence in my last post.



As another point, here you state

quote:

And I can't believe that you would post my video, I would explain to you why it's not a good example and you'll still go on about your point. It's MY video. The description states that it is not an easy strategy to achieve. It doesn't make base rogue look overpowered. Rogue base is a bad class. It just shows what you can achieve with high MPM. There being an youtube video of a class completing a challenge doesn't mean it was easy. The CLL ancient video required a VIK proc and the right gear. The GPS video also required high MPM and careful planning. Those videos are examples of what you can achieve with a lot of brainstorming. I think it's perfectly visible from those 3 ancient videos that it was not something easy.


Using high MPM for ancient isn't brainstorming and doesn't require 'in-depth knowledge of the fight'. There's a reason why I chose those 3 bad classes. Based on those videos, it would make it seem using maximum MPM defence is overpowered. It obviously isn't, or else almost every inn challenge would use high MPM def as optimal equipment.




BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 9:52:31)

quote:

Using high MPM for ancient isn't brainstorming and doesn't require 'in-depth knowledge of the fight'. There's a reason why I chose those 3 bad classes. Based on those videos, it would make it seem using maximum MPM defence is overpowered. It obviously isn't, or else almost every inn challenge would use high MPM def as optimal equipment.
You do it then.

If the Second Hardest fight in the game doesn't require strategy to beat with a base class then why do people need guests?????



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 10:05:36)

BluuHorseOfficial- I've done it with GPS, but not with base rogue and chickencow armour. I never said ancient duo didn't require strategy, I said using high MPM for ancient duo isn't considered a big brain play.



BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 10:13:48)

You can't just insult the hard work someone poured into formulating a strategy for the hardest challenge in the game at the time to be beaten by a literal base class when you did it with a better class. All of Simeon's points are correct and for the past few posts you linked content whose descriptions mention how hard it was or how many tries it took to beat the challenge and compared it with guest content whose descriptions state how easy it is to replicate. Insulting other people's work is not what this thread is about, so please drop it. High MPM memes are also a strategy specifically tailored to Ancient Duo and do not work in other contexts barring easy fights such as the Dragons that are negligible to this discussion, and they were first brought about by Simeon himself. You were not present on discord the day that the Gauntlet was released and people beat it with ChW so don't go off what people said about it in the forums, which is already numerically smaller community, and Simeon knows what he is talking about.



ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 10:15:04)

@The_element - your point was that because ChW couldn't easily complete the no-heal gauntlet, the nerf discussion died out. Both of those statements are incorrect. ChW can easily complete it and it was not the reason the discussion stopped. Trying to change your point to compare it to the original C7 doesn't help you. And yes, if ChW can easily defeat all of the C7 (in their full hp), it can easily defeat the whole gauntlet.

It doesn't require brainstorming? You're being very disrespectful. Since now you're just saying things you're not knowledgeable about it, let me explain it for you. My rogue ancient was the first video posted of high mpm ancient. I had to examine Rogue's CDs and the exact numbers on its shields (in combination with high MPM) to be able to combine them in a 10-turn rotation that has the highest chance of success. It was also important to use the BPD shield for the one-hit debuff and the mpm shield for the two-hit debuffs, because of Gananana's high crit chance. Even then, because of gananana's mechanics, on every 10th turn, it had enough bth to slip through the shields, so it was important to switch to +all gear. I also had to watch out for Augahim's mechanic to increase its bth if it misses both of its first attacks. There was also baby dragon skills that needed to be used at precise turns.

Of course high MPM might seem more trivial now, because of all the videos created, but it doesn't mean that it didn't require thinking to find that strategy.

Did you do GPS ancient after the video was released or before? Because if you just copied a video, of course that is not considered big brain.



dawnchere -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 10:20:04)

quote:

I've done it with GPS, but not with base rogue and chickencow armour. I never said ancient duo didn't require strategy, I said using high MPM for ancient duo isn't considered a big brain play.


Did you think of the strategy all by yourself then? Or did you make reference to said videos that you linked earlier on? Because if you are doing the latter, then it may not seem "big brain" since you're not the one thinking through the rotation of skills that you have to use when lining it up against the enemy. High MPM may be a strong strategy for ancient duo, but it may not be obvious if no one else has done it before. I don't think it's nice to put down other people's efforts, especially since they were the first to actually pull it off.



bobtehnoob -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 10:54:19)

quote:

In terms of the videos, my point still stands- YouTube isn't a good example, because it can make any class and strategy seem OP in the right hands.

the difference is that guests can be/are overpowered, and require little to no planning, whereas other niche strategies like mpm stacking are just that, niche
it currently takes little to no effort to assemble a team of superfriends and press buttons in the general direction of the enemy and come out with a win

i dont understand why you try to cite videos you have no information about to try and explain why someone else's evidence is wrong, tbh

quote:

I wouldn't know too much about the pirates, because I'm not a fan of them tbh.


i also don't understand why you try to argue about things you don't know too much about

quote:

Combining both provide 5 turns of pure defence, which allows you to wombo combo with an offensive class to do a lot of damage. Or if you're using a more balanced hybrid class with 2 turn uptime and 5 turn cooldown shield, you can effectively go:

Class shield ---> Chimera shield ---> Class shield again ---> Pet dragon shield


except the chimera shield is bpd which is awfully inconsistent against a good portion of recent releases, and requires you to waste pet actions in order to do so, as you can see in the gps and shadowhunter videos neglecting to use chimera at all

quote:

Using high MPM for ancient isn't brainstorming and doesn't require 'in-depth knowledge of the fight'.


get off your high horse lmao i dont get where you're coming from with this "doesn't require knowledge of the fight"
if mpm stacking isn't brainstorming and doesnt require knowledge of the fight then shouldnt mpm stacking be a generally good strategy for every fight and something you can throw at a boss willy nilly?
ancient duo is a well designed fight with many possible approaches to it and mpm stacking happens to be one of the possible approaches to the fight by virtue of ganana being unable to gain bth and augahim gaining limited bth, as well as the amount of mpm you can stack being exactly equal to the bosses' bth + 100

tl;dr i don't think you know what you're talking about and are trying to trivialize other people's accomplishments to try and make a point about a subject you admitted you aren't familiar with



Vignesh -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 10:56:11)

quote:

In terms of the videos, my point still stands- YouTube isn't a good example, because it can make any class and strategy seem OP in the right hands. Based on those videos, it would make it seem using maximum MPM defence is overpowered. It obviously isn't, or else almost every inn challenge would use high MPM def as optimal equipment. I could probably find more videos like these on YouTube, but I assume you're already aware of these.


In the technomancer and guests video that I was referencing, pride takes a single action for 7695 of its health. Leon and Raven deal half of that health pool in damage. The stun lock + the damage done by guests is OP. I disagree that YouTube isn't a good example here. Also I disagree with the "right hands" part because this was low effort and didn't require strategy around the enemies mechanics.



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 12:18:27)

@Bluehorseofficial- I'm not insulting anyone, you're acting as if I'm personally attacking someone. The concept of stacking MPM and gear swapping has been around for years, for example, this was being done by Baron Dante to beat hard mode challenges back in the early 2010's. I beat ancient duo with GPS a long long time ago, and I probably did it before most of these high MPM posts on YouTube.

@ballistik-

quote:

Trying to change your point to compare it to the original C7 doesn't help you


I literally explained what that sentence meant on post 45, that's almost 20 posts ago. After the quote on post 45, I literally explained what that sentence meant, unless you're going to argue that the gauntlet was as easy as the individual corrupted seven challenge, I don't see what your point is.

quote:

It doesn't require brainstorming? You're being very disrespectful. Since now you're just saying things you're not knowledgeable about it, let me explain it for you. My rogue ancient was the first video posted of high mpm ancient. I had to examine Rogue's CDs and the exact numbers on its shields (in combination with high MPM) to be able to combine them in a 10-turn rotation that has the highest chance of success. It was also important to use the BPD shield for the one-hit debuff and the mpm shield for the two-hit debuffs, because of Gananana's high crit chance. Even then, because of gananana's mechanics, on every 10th turn, it had enough bth to slip through the shields, so it was important to switch to +all gear. I also had to watch out for Augahim's mechanic to increase its bth if it misses both of its first attacks. There was also baby dragon skills that needed to be used at precise turns.


Everything is relative I guess, I beat ancient duo with GPS using a high MPM strat, I did not consider it a massive accomplishment. I guess because of this, I don't consider beating ancient duo with rogue using a high MPM strat is a massive accomplishment. I'm sorry if you felt I was being disrespectful.

quote:

Did you do GPS ancient after the video was released or before? Because if you just copied a video, of course that is not considered big brain.


The video was posted on 1st December 2019, so I'm pretty certain that I beat it before the video was posted on YouTube.

@dawnchere

quote:

Did you think of the strategy all by yourself then? Or did you make reference to said videos that you linked earlier on? Because if you are doing the latter, then it may not seem "big brain" since you're not the one thinking through the rotation of skills that you have to use when lining it up against the enemy. High MPM may be a strong strategy for ancient duo, but it may not be obvious if no one else has done it before. I don't think it's nice to put down other people's efforts, especially since they were the first to actually pull it off.


The video was posted on 1st December 2019, so I'm pretty certain that I beat it with GPS before the video was posted on YouTube. I'm not trying to put down other people's efforts, I guess because I had done something similar, the accomplishments didn't seem as big. For example, I didn't go around bragging that I beat the challenge with GPS and post a video of it on YouTube.


@bobtehnoob-

quote:

it currently takes little to no effort to assemble a team of superfriends and press buttons in the general direction of the enemy and come out with a win


Thanks for the insight

quote:

except the chimera shield is bpd which is awfully inconsistent against a good portion of recent releases, and requires you to waste pet actions in order to do so, as you can see in the gps and shadowhunter videos neglecting to use chimera at all


Pet swapping was being abused hence why Verlyrus added 'Waking Up' 1-turn pet stun effect in the game. A lot of players, especially on the discord, love using both baby chimera and pet dragon to get that free 5 turns of defence or sometimes 9 turns of defence to unleash their combos and do massive damage. This is overpowered and it's obvious that Verlyrus hasn't gone far enough in punishing use of both baby chimera and pet dragon. By doing the following:

Class shield ---> Chimera shield ---> Class shield again ---> Pet dragon shield

That's 9 turns of defence, not including any other stuff like blinds, debuffs or zardburger. I think wasting a few pet turns to get many, many turns of defence is worth it. What's the point of balancing the game if this is allowed to continue lol


quote:

get off your high horse lmao i dont get where you're coming from with this "doesn't require knowledge of the fight"


Below is a quote of what I actually said, I don't know why you needed to change some of my words to change the meaning of what I said. Saying something 'doesn't require knowledge of the fight' is quite different from saying something doesn't require 'in-depth knowledge of the fight'. Trying to change somebody's words to fit your narrative, doesn't make you right.

quote:

Using high MPM for ancient isn't brainstorming and doesn't require 'in-depth knowledge of the fight'.


----

I've given adequate solutions to the problems with guest below

Guests as meat shields- Code the Pandora Ex fight and possibly subsequent fights so they focus only on the player
Pet dragon and baby chimera- Change future battles, such that their shields cannot be used in a single battle
Guest stuns- Make Pandora Ex and subsequent single inn bosses have 300 immobility instead of the current standard 200 immobility resist




Ultima29 -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 12:32:28)

Uh I had a thought if that -1 turn stun pet swap thing is bad but the pets have multiple turns of shield why dont you just switch pets earlier while the shield is still up. What you're saying doesn't make sense the element



BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 12:34:55)

quote:

The video was posted on 1st December 2019, so I'm pretty certain that I beat it with GPS before the video was posted on YouTube. I'm not trying to put down other people's efforts, I guess because I had done something similar, the accomplishments didn't seem as big. For example, I didn't go around bragging that I beat the challenge with GPS and post a video of it on YouTube.
It's not bragging, it's showing that a class can do a certain challenge. Why do you insist on being rude and disrespectful over and over in reference to a topic that isn't even the subject of this thread? Developers read threads such as these to get player feedback on the game, and this thread is not meant for disrespecting DF content creators. I made this thread to reach out to the developers about guests, and I don't want them to have to sit through a conversation about meme videos any more than how much of the thread has already devolved. Please stop.



bobtehnoob -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 12:39:33)

quote:

I'm not insulting anyone, you're acting as if I'm personally attacking someone.

quote:

For example, I didn't go around bragging that I beat the challenge with GPS and post a video of it on YouTube.

sorry that some people like to record proof of accomplishments instead of just making baseless claims :/
quote:

I beat ancient duo with GPS a long long time ago, and I probably did it before most of these high MPM posts on YouTube.


quote:

Class shield ---> Chimera shield ---> Class shield again ---> Pet dragon shield

That's 9 turns of defence, not including any other stuff like blinds, debuffs or zardburger. I think wasting a few pet turns to get many, many turns of defence is worth it. What's the point of balancing the game if this is allowed to continue lol


as i have said, and you have continued to neglect to read, the chimera shield is bad and not worth using, especially with repeated nerfs to it though the waking up change as well as overall nerfs to the shield itself
maybe i should simplify it so you can understand what i'm saying a bit better
bpd bad stat

quote:

Trying to change somebody's words to fit your narrative, doesn't make you right.


pot meet kettle




Marthe -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 12:50:26)

@Ultima29 You can in fact swap pets earlier, but the issue there is that you lose turns where your pet could be doing something else. For instance, Pet Dragon has many valuable skills outside of shield, and losing several turns of it freely acting is noticeable. That said, it's true that most people don't use Chimera shield anymore, as it's become very unreliable.

As for everything else, I feel that this conversation has degenerated to a point that it's not producing anything of value anymore. The initial topic was guests, not Youtube videos and historical challenge wins. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I feel as if people are becoming rather rude and there's no point to continuing this conversation anymore. The same points are being repeated, and Verlyrus has already stated that he's working on guests. I feel that at this point in time, any further comments on the current state of guests is mostly useless, because they will be changing soon. Moreover, the amount of argument about an unrelated topic that has begun to run rampant here is quite worrying, especially with the general level of respect deteriorating. The original poster of the thread (who has already posted about this) believes that this line of conversation has more than run its course - and I agree, especially as the developers do read these threads, meaning it's not only our time we're wasting.

Naturally, I cannot forcibly stop anyone from posting. I simply wish to make it known that I feel that further posts down this thread of conversation have little value at best, and that the original purpose of this thread is largely negated, with changes up in the air.



ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 12:54:18)

@The_element - you're not really listening to what anybody is telling you, we explained in detail why your statements about brainstorming and in-depth knowledge are not correct. At this point, you've proven that there's no need to discuss those things with you further.

What I am going to address instead is your "adequate solutions" to the guest problem:
1. Guests as meat shields - Making only the player receive the dmg doesn't solve anything. Doesn't solve the pirate blind guests. Moreover, more defensive classes (like cryptic or pdl) can just loop their defenses and take the dmg, while the guests stay alive the whole time and do the damage. Making the guests not receive any dmg can make things actually worse.
2. So you want to nerf pet dragon and chimera that don't have any broken mechanics instead of nerfing guests that do? Pet dragon and chimera are completely fine as they are right now and are not at all the issue we are discussing in this thread.
3. Guest stuns - This is probably your only reasonable point. However, there are still some challenges that don't have any immobility resistance and are balanced around being stunned. There might be some in the future as well, so it is still good to adjust guest stun time.



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 12:56:39)

@Ultima29- Pet swapping was being abused hence why Verlyrus added 'Waking Up' 1-turn pet stun effect in the game. However, it's obvious Verlyrus didn't go far enough, because you can use baby chimera, then on the next turn summon pet dragon and by the time baby chimera's shield has expired, you can use pet dragon's shield. That 1 turn pet stun isn't really a deterrent against using both baby chimera and pet dragon in a single battle.


@BluuHorseOfficial- I'm not being rude and disrespectful, I quote part of my last post

quote:

I'm not insulting anyone, you're acting as if I'm personally attacking someone. The concept of stacking MPM and gear swapping has been around for years, for example, this was being done by Baron Dante to beat hard mode challenges back in the early 2010's. I beat ancient duo with GPS a long long time ago, and I probably did it before most of these high MPM posts on YouTube.


@bobtehnoob-

quote:

sorry that some people like to record proof of accomplishments instead of just making baseless claims :/


I'm sorry, but most people that complete these challenges don't record themselves doing it lol.

quote:

as i have said, and you have continued to neglect to read, the chimera shield is bad and not worth using, especially with repeated nerfs to it though the waking up change as well as overall nerfs to the shield itself
maybe i should simplify it so you can understand what i'm saying a bit better
bpd bad stat


Okay, so you're saying baby chimera is not worth using, right? Then I guess you won't mind pet dragon and baby chimera being changed, such that their shields cannot be used in a single battle

quote:

quote:

quote:

Trying to change somebody's words to fit your narrative, doesn't make you right.


pot meet kettle


I have, in fact, not changed somebody else's words to fit my own narrative.



ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 13:00:13)

I agree with Marthe, let's stop this discussion, since it's getting out of hand and has completely gone off rail. Let's wait for the guest changes next release.



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 13:02:53)

Adding extra guest punishes doesn't require reinventing the wheel. AoE attacks like Meowphant stun already hit the target once and then hits all targets once each.
I don't think it would be interesting if everything started doing that, but more things should instead of hitting one target randomly, or spreading hits across all targets like Uthuluc.



BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 13:02:59)

I regret even thinking of posting this already, but the Chimera shield is not very good. It does not need to be nerfed. It still does find some use in helping Epoch set up or in trying to improve a class' defenses temporarily, though it is unreliable for this as it is a BPD shield and with a normal (non-CHA) build, only 100 or so by magnitude. Nerfing something that does not deserve it is senseless. This thread is not about Chimera Dragon swapping, can we please drop this? We've said what needs to be said and are going in circles, it would be best to wait it out until the changes arrive, so we can pick up this discussion again with fresher points.



xelessarx -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 13:13:56)

Wasn't gonna delve deeper into the swamp this thread has become but wanted to point to something I thought that was funny:

quote:

@BluuHorseOfficial- I'm not being rude and disrespectful, I quote part of my last post


Ah yes, because you have claimed that you were not being disrespectful on past posts, that makes you totally polite although your obvious offensive behavior in those same posts.
Both you and Bob have been needlessly passive (actually almost active) agressive with your posts and it seems almost funny to read through you guys' posts.

Whatever, as it is stated, the topic has rather become the validity of some strategies on youtube videos and whether people post videos for ego-boosting or not. Which is ridiculous considering the initial topic of this thread.



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 14:23:19)

@ballistik

quote:


1. Guests as meat shields - Making only the player receive the dmg doesn't solve anything. Doesn't solve the pirate blind guests. Moreover, more defensive classes (like cryptic or pdl) can just loop their defenses and take the dmg, while the guests stay alive the whole time and do the damage. Making the guests not receive any dmg can make things actually worse.


Some classes would benefit from this change, but most won't, as is the case with any mechanic change. The damage from your guests would be balanced by the fact that the boss does significantly more damage (220% when having 2 guests).

quote:

2. So you want to nerf pet dragon and chimera that don't have any broken mechanics instead of nerfing guests that do? Pet dragon and chimera are completely fine as they are right now and are not at all the issue we are discussing in this thread.


I never said I didn't want to not nerf guests, you're commenting on some of these nerfs/changes lol. I commented on how broken pet dragon/baby chimera swapping was in posts 56 and 64. If you disagree, then I guess you won't mind pet dragon and baby chimera being changed, such that their shields cannot be used in a single battle.

quote:

3. Guest stuns - This is probably your only reasonable point. However, there are still some challenges that don't have any immobility resistance and are balanced around being stunned. There might be some in the future as well, so it is still good to adjust guest stun time.


How many challenges are there that don't have any immobility resistance? A handful at most, this isn't really a good reason to adjust guest stun time and adding more RNG to the game. Also, those challenges without any immobility resist aren't typically threatening either.


@ Erosionseeker- I'm not sure why this hasn't been seen more often tbh. I would really like it if we saw more AoE attacks, especially AoE stuns. It would also probably be awesome if we saw some AoE health draining attack. I think it would give a real chaotic feel seeing these crazy gimmicks in battle.

@BluuHorseOfficial

quote:

I regret even thinking of posting this already, but the Chimera shield is not very good. It does not need to be nerfed.


If it's not very good, then I guess you won't mind pet dragon and baby chimera being changed, such that their shields cannot be used in a single battle.

quote:

This thread is not about Chimera Dragon swapping


Surely you can see the similarity between pets with manual pet actions and guests, right? At this point, pets are essentially unhittable guests.


@ xelessarx

quote:

Whatever, as it is stated, the topic has rather become the validity of some strategies on youtube videos and whether people post videos for ego-boosting or not. Which is ridiculous considering the initial topic of this thread.


You're right, the thread has become a bit off topic, so I'll refrain from talking about those YouTube videos from this point onwards.



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