Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (Full Version)

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Khoifish25 -> Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (2/27/2021 0:21:35)

What I like about the new armour:
- Relics now play a more important role in the armour and how it can function
- The damage skills seem to be able to deal more damage than before
- You get an extra turn when you change presence
- You know gain a skill that can stave off death for a few turns. A nice concept.
- Likewise, the concept of giving up LP for the extra damage is an interesting angle to take the class.

What I miss about the old armour:
- The heal/dot skill was quite a decent size of damage and tanking for the armour, so to see it gone is a it of a let down
- Likewise, I also kind of miss the presence Dot as it was a decent extra bit of damage, especially against opponent's that could stave off death
- Another thing I will miss the chance to stun the opponent with Unholy Will. Came in clutch in many battles I had though I figure that's why it was removed.
- Without the relics, many skills are a bit nerfed

Overall opinion: A positive rework which helps give the armour some unique flavour. Not so sure if this armour is better overall compared to how it used to be but it's still nice to see old armours at least try to do something special.



Primate Murder -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (2/27/2021 6:01:47)

My thoughts on the Deathknight revamp are... mixed. I used it with no Relics though, so it's possible I'm missing the real DK experience.

First of all, let me mention that I really appreciate the class getting it's own distinct identity, rather than just being a mix of paladin and necromancer skills. Necrotic Shift grants a nice bit of tactical versatility and The Edge of Death is just plain cool, both thematically and functionally.

That said, the new DK does have a few issues:

- The offense. DK has only 2 nuke skills (w/o Relics), and both of those have been reduced in strength as well as have lengthy cooldowns. If you didn't kill your foe with Obliterate and Dreadblade, you're left with little to do over the next ~10 turns except click the attack button.

- The defense. The Garb of Undeath has a comparatively low MPM bonus, a lengthy cooldown and now only lasts 2 turns, providing almost no protection against high-damage monsters. The Edge of Death is a cool mechanic, but it still reduces you to 25% hp afterwards. Add in the loss of Dark Rite's healing and Strength Reap's nerf, and the class ends up having fairly low survivability.

- Unholy Will and Armor Strike. If you don't have any Relics, there's pretty much no reason to ever use these skills.

- Dark Rite. While I like the idea behind the skill, it ends up rather underwhelming. It provides a smaller bonus than Strength Reap at a downright prohibitive cost, which makes it almost unusable outside of Edge of Death. It might be a good idea to either increase the bonus or, I don't know, turn it into a pure DoT effect? We did loose 3 different DoTs in the revamp.

Tl;dr: I like the way this is going, but at the moment the class is trying to do too many things w/o really dedicating itself to any of them.



Khoifish25 -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (2/27/2021 6:37:50)

Yeah. The new armour is heavily geared based on the Relics so you are going to need to use them if you are to make the most out of the skills. I do wish however they kept the healing skill or at the very least keep the Defence skill last for 4 turns rather than the new 2.



dreaming -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/2/2021 4:43:57)

":LIKES:"
-- giving an extra turn for for presence. I suppose this could MAYBE make up for the health we lose, just for using skills
-- Giving my favorite animation to obliterate, and taking out the awkward stab from sword slash
-- increased damage for 'Strength Reap' initial hit. I feel like this was needed. Not badly, but still needed
-- The edge of death skill rework, even though I think the penalty isn't worth only 3 turns, I might change my mind on that in the future
-- New presence switch mechanic, as well as the damage boost for consume
-- an icon in the form of the sword that lets you know which presence you're on


":DISLIKES:"
-- Garb of Undeath reduced to 2 turns... Why
-- Reducing Obliterates damage. Again, why
-- Reducing Soul Slash's damage
-- Blood tap now needing a landed hit to heal. This one is whatever, I'll live
-- Taking damage for using skills now, and only reducing the damage if you use specific gear.... wtf.
-- Reducing damage of 'Inspire Weakness'..
(if this is already starting to sound like a overall nerf to the class, that's because it is..)
-- I wasn't too sure how I felt about the change to 'Unholy Will' but I guess I can get used to this
-- 'Dark Rite', used to get a good DoT for this skill, now there's no dot, as well as nerfing the DoT for necrotic
-- Reducing the damage of 'Dreadblade'


Overall, I dislike this revamp. I feel only people who have the specific gear this class now caters to, will you like this. Unfortunately this limits gear builds/creativity, if you want to use this class's fullest potential, which I hate.

In design notes, it's said you use consuming presence with dark rite to sacrifice health for massive amounts of damage, yet you nerfed damage on some skills.

We already did lots of damage with 'inspire weakness' and 'Strength Reap' beforehand, now we're punished for doing so, despite me kind of liking the new mechanic..



Fire alandry -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/2/2021 5:50:23)

After a few days with fully equipped DK, I can say that I love this class. The damage is great, and the class has enough useful skills to fill in between the damage's rotation.
I suggested the idea of DK items changing the skills in the Zeclem Thread. I don't know if Verly took it from me or on, but I like it anyway. This is so cool and unique.

My only problem with the class is the edge of death against DoT. Even the smallest DoT prevent DK from using this skill, and there are a lot of Inn bosses with DoT. So... Maybe a complete Deathproof, to make this skill (which is a core feature of the class, IMO) viable?



AstralCodex -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/2/2021 15:25:31)

You can survive DoTs with Edge if you just apply an HoT on yourself first - for example the HoT that comes with Necrotic Presence Shift :)



mahasamatman -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/3/2021 14:11:46)

DoTs are also a problem for CW's Aegis skill. Really annoying.



Barbecue -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/4/2021 3:26:15)

I'm liking the overall rework of Deathknight, very mechanically complex and fun to use. The consuming and healing presences are really neat! And provide a lot of flavor to fights. The only real small gripes I have is the 9CD shield and that Necrotic Shift with consuming presence seems a bit weak considering the fact it only lasts when you don't change to healing presence, but that's all!



JaiyeJr -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/7/2021 21:00:28)

Mechanics wise, It's real fun.

In terms of balance, I wish it was a little more varied in its buffs (2 buff skills that give the exact same amount of stats) or had somesort of cooldown reduction at the expense of health, but I would be very content if it was left unchaged for another 5 years.

However, I would give my own liver to have updated animations. Necro Paragon has some good animations since it's techincally a different armor from necromancer, but since Relic Deathknight is just another customization, it uses the same purple circles and old skeleton minions since deathknight's release.

The thing is, updated animations already exist! The Zeclem bossfight uses updated deathknight animations and the look clean. If relic deathknight was a seperate armor or if they somehow find a way to tie animations to armor customization, things would be gold.



Roxas45 -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/8/2021 10:43:08)

I'm not a fan of the new rework in all honesty. I liked having two different skills:
The Cycling between healing and damaging the opponent (although, I find the heal on attack more effective, I WILL say that)
And Blood Rite doing HoT AND DoT. That was Basically my bread and butter for my build on some of the major enemies.

Stun -> Lower Resistance -> Blood Rite -> Ultimate -> Final -> Shield
And so on.

Now... You have a skill that prevents you from Dying (Great, but that would be useful only late battle, not at the beginning or mid, where you'd be trying to save yourself from getting your HP down too far), and one that gives you massive boosts, and an undying state at 1 HP. Great, but the restoration is only 25% HP. Again, this would work Late game, not early on in the battle, when you'd want to chip away at the enemies.

Maybe I've gotten too comfortable with the previous build I had going on, but that factors into my opinion.
I dont mind that the relics play an important part, but holy hell, getting the upgrades on the relics...
It feels like this class requires a lot more effort than whats coming OUT of it (I dont mean to sound ungrateful. This is my favourite class out of all of them in DF, and I'm forever salty that its not a free class in AQW). I say that, keeping in mind the process involved with unlocking its potential: Unlock and Max Paladin, Unlock and Max Necromancer, and then Unlock and Max Deathknight, and then get the relics.
If you're a higher level than the base versions (Like I am), then upgrading comes at a bit of a pain in the neck with the grinding and the items.
(Again, NOT ungrateful, but just pointing out that this is a Tier 2, or even Tier 3 class, that you get by maxing out two OTHER tier 2 classes and it feels like... Its hurting you in the process)

BESIDES my griping.
I love the fact that we have a visual indication of the state we're in. I like the new updated animations and the two hit Final attack. I like that our Skeletal friend is now back to being useful (instead of just a standard attack).

Deathknight has always been one of my favourite classes, and I got to try it when it was first introduced for the free players one frostval. It persists in my mind as what I love about DF, how it can merge the Paladins and the Necromancers, and give us a story behind it as well in the form of Sir Malifact (Apologize for the spelling).

That was my two cents' worth, and I say this with the utmost love, and not as a slight to any devs, or anyone involved in the process of revamping things. I may just be too used to something old, and change is usually always welcome.



Primate Murder -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/11/2021 8:10:03)

Okay, I've created a new character and leveled her to her 40s (min Relic level) specifically to see how the class plays out. Final thoughts.

Pros:

- It's a great questing class. Consuming Presence allows you to consistently deal high damage with both the Crit and the Multi, and a no-turn DoT provides a very nice fallback for any mooks that survive with low hp.

- Most bosses outside the Inn are fairly easy. I fought the Waste Sentinels, nuking one down, then outlasting the other in Healing Presence + HoT. With enough Endurance, you can outheal most of the damage.

- The armor and cloak actually look really cool. I never played DK before, but they fit my roleplaying to a T.

Cons:

- Lack of a reliable Bonus buff. With Strength Reap and Dark Rite you can get 80 extra bonus, but that requires 2 turns, 25% of your MaxHP and hitting the monster at least once. Until DK has some way to attack shielded enemies, I don't see it becoming an Inn class.

- As other people have mentioned, most of the animations are really basic. Some variety would do nicely.

- Dark Rite. Relics or no, the skill consumes a lot of hp for an effect that's repetitive and rather boring.

On a side note, it would be really nice to actually see the effects of equiping Relics with the class. I can see the Relic Barier buff, but not the ones for offense or utility.

Overall, playing around with DK is rather fun. The rotations are fairly flexible, the offense is powerful, the defense is versatile, the gimmick is unique and enjoyable. The class could do with a few minor tweaks, but overall I liked it.



Dratomos -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/11/2021 8:36:53)

I've really liked this rework. DeathKnight has become my go-to class for my alt. I agree that some of the animations are basic, but then again, it's an old class and there is no need for Dove to start working on it when he already has enough projects.

And @Primate_Murder, I disagree greatly with your statements on DK not becoming and Inn class. It's on par with Techno and can defeat many fights and duos without problems (I used it on my alt to farm Timewarped Metals and there wasn't a challenge I couldn't beat with it, without using extra potions or food). Since you use it on level 40 character, the difference between that and level 90 is big. With all 6 relics, a lvl 90 character has base 106 Crit and Bonus to start with and that doesn't count trinkets, bracers or stat training. Adding 80 bonus you get from skills to that, DK can cut through most shields.

As for seeing buffs for offense and utility, it's tricky. While it would made easier for players to understand them if we see it, some of the Inn bosses check how many buffs you have (like Pride and Leorilla) and that can leave DK at disadvantage.



TFS -> RE: Thoughts on the DeathKnight Rework (3/11/2021 17:29:24)

^You can clear Relic Barrier by unequipping and re-equipping an item every turn



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