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Mike Dragonblade -> RE: QuadForce: A second look. (3/24/2021 3:40:18)
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In resume: Change the CHA boost to LUCK or END.
While purple rain and EO allow the Q4 to be use for extended periods of time, let me propose that is not the problem. But rather the power Q4 provides, on a specific stat.
There are four points I would like you to consider.
1.- what is Q4 real application in the players hand? As far as I have heard most people use it for very specific things:
A. Boost DEX on werepyre to be able to have more equipment variety;
B. Boost CHA so poelala/Dunamis/Therna can give its full 100% bonus instead of their 75% that a pure build would get currently.
Only on theory I have heard of people using Q4 to go from mage to warrior and viceversa, or from pure build to beastmaster build. And no one that isnt doing it for the meme is rolling 250 END/LUCK/DEX to boost STR, INT, CHA for the ultimate Werepyre Beastmaster!
So on principle, is it really that bad of a thing if its useful for werepyre so they can use other stuff and booster pets user can squeeze that 25% extra for SP, maybe is not, but the SP cost should be apropiate. (AND I am sure someone else will be able to calculate how much exactly should the SP Cost be).
2.- The theme and identity of the item: beyond the triforce reference, when most people think about Quadforce they aren't really thinking I need light resistance, +50 Luck and some good +20% universal dmg boost, are they? I think not, on the contrary Quadforce is all about the 250 stat boost to up to 4 stats, and only at a second thought do the other stuff comes to mind.
As such, the light resistance, the +50 luck and the +20% dmg universally can be thought up as extras. Maybe there is a precedent for miscs with those benefits, but there is no misc like Quadforce. Removing them could be a good choice to reduce the power of the item, that is, if its truly necessary.
3.- the actual power or value that Q4 brings:
If you look at the info subs for this misc it will tell you that the light res, the +50 luck and +20% dmg are the misc and "AS A MC" it has a stat boost. This MC is equivalent to being able to bring up to 1000 stats (for SP), while other items get MC +5% dmg. Sure some MC give suppression but seems like a bit much (hence this discussion).
But what is actually the power that Q4 gives to the player? As was said earlier most players aren't going for the ultimate Werepyre Beastmaster!
So a pure mage/warrior would have 250 INT or STR, 250 DEX, 250 LUCK and 0 END, CHA and whichever isnt choosen from STR and INT. So:
i) Q4 currently cannot bost END, so thats not an issue.
ii) Q4 could be used to boost INT/STR when its 0 for a warrior or mage respectively, but why would you do that? A lot of the armors and weapons people use now a days are usable at their fullest by both mages and warrior, so you would get the same results anyways.
Even if you were, for example mage and you boosted STR for 250 so you could use a specific melee weapon, you wouldn't really be that much more powerful for it (even it melee weapons do more dmg than magic ones):
A. because you would pay SP for it, which could be used to do a skill for way more dmg with your normal set up.
B. because for most weapons there isnt any benefit to have both INT AND STR, just a look at the game formulas, INT and STR don't interact at all on "bonus core stat dmg" (even for weapon-like and spell-like abilities).
C. And you would have to sacrifice inventory slots for items you could only use with quadforce locking you out of other miscs and other weapons you can already use to the fullest. Even werepyres get a special formula that uses both INT and STR but it should not be that much stronger than normal pure builds burst.
What I mean to say there isnt much power to be gained from boosting the stat that was not chosen to be the primary stat (at leadt when compared to the power your real build has), it mostly go be more flexible on your items choices (for weapons thst can only be of one type or skills that can only do one type of dmg Mele/range/magic).
iii) Then there is CHA, theorically you could boost your CHA and get a beastmaster pet to do more dmg, how much I do not know exactly but I seen it be said that CHA/INT/STR give the player grossly round 50% more dmg in stat dmg. Regardless of the fact, that I havent heard of people doing this, it is quite possible without changing any of the classic pure build set up (that has 1 pet, the booster one).
But more importantly, the booster pet users get to nullify, for a some SP cost, the nerf to the booster pets. The nerf I am mentioning was that INT/STR/DEX no longer gave 100% of the boost, rather only 75% of the old boost comes from the primary stat while the other 25% would come from the CHA stats. And anybody can correct on this one if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell at lvl 150, the poelala pet + guest 25% CHA based damage boost should be equivalent to a total of +21%(ish) dmg for weapon dmg.
I remember reading that this decision was made so booster pure builds Characters didnt replace the CHA stat completely with a booster pet, and yet with Q4 that is possible since you get the full 250 CHA.
That being said being able to use an item to its fullest shouldnt be a bad thing on its own.
But what it is bad its that CHA boosting actually powers up the player in a way that other stats dont, the boost that CHA gives can go as far +50%(ish) extra dmg potential with beastmaster pets or about +21%(ish) dmg from the booster pet synergy (which also synergyze even more with FO burst skills and EO, Purple rain).
iv) Extra: A Werepyre build getting full 250 DEX means that they can use other equipment, normal equipment mind you, and be able to hit stuff like any normal build can, its not really a power up but a flexibility buff. Also, they get a good Bth bonus and Bonus to block, which can be done in several other ways in any case.
4.- As you can see the real spike in power only really comes from the CHA boost, because the other boosts dont really give more power, just more flexibility. In fact, if we add up the +20% universal dmg boost plus the +21%(ish) dmg boost from poelala/dunamis/therdna and lets say +2% from the additive +50 LUCK. This single misc give the main nuker pure build a total of +43%(ish) more dmg that can synergyze with burst ele comp equipment to make even more dmg. Or +20% dmg boost to the player and a +50% extra dmg from beastmaster pets (so 70% ish boost without the mentioned synergyzes).
Even if 40% more dmg is strong. The issue is that this spike in power doesn't happen with when boosting other stats, because the game formulas don't touch each other (unlike the booster pets ones) or because the player is already doing what the stat change would allow them, just with a different equipment (ie magic weapon rather than melee weapons), so even if there are good benefits to boosting other skills, the power gained is just not that significant.
Thats why my main suggestion is to change the CHA boost to either END or LUCK, because even if both new stats give their own advantages, those are not comparable to the % that CHA does (ie LUCK boost would not affect iniciative for example, and that is a big drawing point for LUCK).
The SP cost can always be adjusted and the extra stuff can come and go(+20% universal dmg, light res and +50 LUCK), but these things will not change the power spikes of Quadforce like changing the CHA boost does.
And booster pets characters dont even get truly isnt a nerf, game just goes back to the 75% boost that the devs decided a 0 cha character should get out of a booster pet. Well, if there were people who wanted to use beastmaster pets with Q4 (which I havent heard of) they wont be able to though.
This proposal would kept Quadforce basically the same in terms of theme and function, but the power spike would be drastically reduced, while still allowing for drastic build flexibility. THAT being said a bigger SP could always be considered and tweaked upon and if the power Q4 is still too much, the extras can be removed with no harm to its theme and Function.
Thanks for reading! And sorry for the long post.
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