RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (Full Version)

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NotKun -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/13/2021 9:12:52)

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Access lock – impose a restriction similar to what is imposed to DmK V1. That is, clear a challenge first to lift the lock on trinket skill usage. ARRGH encounters not included.

Boost lock – same restriction as on-attack specials, but only triggers in the Inn.

Damage inhibition – a restriction similar to what was done to NSoD (e.g. reduce total damage by 80% of what they normally do. To put it into perspective, a TS doing 300% total damage will have it downed to 24%). You can still power it up due to the Boost stat, but it should be weaker due to lower numbers.

Total trinket skill lock – an absolute last resort.


All of these would essentially kill damaging trinkets completely. Damage inhibition is in particular terrible because why on earth would anyone click a 24% skill when you actually do more damage just by clicking attack (to trigger on hits is not a valid answer because in that case you would just use c7/eud which have much better stats). Total trinket lock is even worse because than punishes every single trinket. I still think the use of damaging trinkets is pretty niche and not overpowered with regards to challenges. There are two classes (chw, corrupted doom epoch) who even consider using them, barring the farming challenges (exaltia, zeclems), and in both cases they provide an alternative to simply using c7/eud and in many cases the use of c7/eud is still more justified for the stats. The challenges in which they are used can often be done pretty easily with c7/eud and the cannon simply offers an alternative way for them to clear the fight.

Adding +4 all/-4 health as suggested by someone else in this thread is a horrendous idea because the entire point of cannon is to provide an offensive alternative to the existing stat stick trinkets like c7/eud. Giving it +all essentially makes it the same as these other trinkets and would offer zero incentive or reward for farming it.



The_element -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/13/2021 11:48:45)

@NotKun-

When cannon first came out back in 2015(?) it was more for bragging rights, as there wasn’t really a meta back then and most people were casual players. Over time, it became the case that cannon was an offensive alternative with weaker stats than C7 and EUD. How I see it, based on quotes by Verlyrus, it’ll be inevitable than high damage trinkets will get a nerf with the damage ceiling for base damage probably being roughly 300%. Based on my quote you can see I was suggesting that after the damage was nerfed maybe cannon could be given better stats, and the +4 All/-4 Health was only an example. It could be the case, it was given +1, +2, or +3 All/-Health, or maybe just more crit and bonus.

quote:

- Decrease cannon base damage from 400% to 300% and maybe give it slightly better stats, for example, it could maybe give +4 All/-4 Health.




BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/13/2021 12:59:28)

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To be fair Astral, I’m very active on the discord and we spoke to each other last week in depth. I often speak with you, along with Bluu, Sol, Aryc and TFS. In fact, I would say we usually have a nice chat. Me not telling my discord username is just to create a little bit of fun.

I stopped speaking on the discord server regularly about more than 8 months ago now, and I can't quite seem to recall having interacted with someone with takes as... eccentric... as yours. I would appreciate if you didn't bring up my name again for I want nothing to do with you.



NotKun -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/13/2021 13:03:06)

Why do you keep using one quote from Verly during an ongoing discussion as evidence that all damaging trinkets will be reduced to 300%? when removing the boost he boosted its damage to 500%, and now when reverting it he kept its damage at 400% (I would say this is more significant evidence that he does in fact not intend to simply centralize every damaging trinket at 300% because that would be incredibly homogenizing and make cannon a very lackluster item). Instead of simply regurgitating that one quote as evidence that it will happen for sure try giving actual reasons for why that would be the case.

Like I mentioned in my last post the exact amount of all stat you give the cannon doesn't matter, its still removing the point of using a damage dealing trinket if you cap its damage at 300%. C7 and EUD deal 200% damage and unless you decide to give it the exact same stats as those trinkets no one is going to be trading an extra 100% in damage for less all stat. As I once again mentioned in my previous statement even at 400% its already a very niche use and often times the tradeoff in stats is a negative and even cde/chw end up using c7/eud. Verly has also since stated that he overestimated the impact that boosted trinket skills had on the Inn meta, so instead of repeating ad nauseam his single quote from weeks back, make an actual point.



The_element -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/13/2021 14:56:27)

quote:

Why do you keep using one quote from Verly during an ongoing discussion as evidence that all damaging trinkets will be reduced to 300%?


It’s not just one quote, you can read through most of Verly’s recent posts and see that the sentiment is the same, he sees DM cannon, chi blast and DFF to be too overpowered when combined with high boost, such as with chaosweaver. There’s a reason why none of chaosweaver’s attacks do 400% base damage.


quote:

when removing the boost he boosted its damage to 500%, and now when reverting it he kept its damage at 400% (I would say this is more significant evidence that he does in fact not intend to simply centralize every damaging trinket at 300% because that would be incredibly homogenizing and make cannon a very lackluster item).


If you spoke to Verlyrus, you would see when he made cannon 500%, he was taking something away (boosting trinkets) and giving something back (more damage to cannon). When he reverted trinket boosting, he also reverted cannon damage from 500% to 400%. We are now back to the original problem of cannon/chi blast/DFF doing too much damage with chaosweaver, so in order to address this problem, these three trinkets are going to eat a nerf.

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Like I mentioned in my last post the exact amount of all stat you give the cannon doesn't matter, its still removing the point of using a damage dealing trinket if you cap its damage at 300%. C7 and EUD deal 200% damage and unless you decide to give it the exact same stats as those trinkets no one is going to be trading an extra 100% in damage for less all stat.


The main reason trinket boosting was nerfed was because of classes like chaosweaver. It’s very likely that cannon/chi blast/DFF are going to eat a nerf so that chaosweaver doesn’t trivialise certain challenges now and into the future; this will make it easier for Verlyrus to balance challenges around chaosweaver. I assume after the nerfs, those trinkets will be given some extra stats to justify their use or at the very least to make players feel jaded after their canon grind.

quote:

Verly has also since stated that he overestimated the impact that boosted trinket skills had on the Inn meta, so instead of repeating ad nauseam his single quote from weeks back, make an actual point.

That quote was from 11/04/21 or in other words, 2 days ago. I assume Verlyrus hasn’t changed his mind in the last 2 days.



NotKun -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/13/2021 15:28:28)

I like how you quoted me and then proceed to ignore the portion of it where I mentioned that since reverting the changes he mentioned that he had overestimated the impact that boosted trinket skills had on the Inn meta, this statement was made in conjunction with reverting the boost changes and is certainly more relevant than the quote you keep using which was part of an ongoing discussion the night prior(yes I was incorrect about when it was in my original post) about the changes.

You keep mentioning chaosweaver trivializing fights with cannon/chi blast without actually addressing my point regarding its use case being niche even for chaosweaver or providing any actual examples of this happening. Also the fact that you are lumping chi blast (a trinket that is completely irrelevant to the inn meta outside of AARGH where it is used simply to increase clear time and is not needed) with cannon tells me that you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Once again you continue to circle back to simply restating what you assume to be his intent even if in the last reversion he clearly stated that he overestimated the use of boosted trinket damage in the Inn meta. You can assume all you want about the stats that these trinkets will gain after the 300% nerf you assume will happen but that does not "justify" their use, they will simply not be used, a 300% damage trinket does not have enough upside over the all stat trinkets (because for like the 400th time their use case in their CURRENT state is already niche and certainly does not trivialize challenges).

I won't be mentioning DFF because its a rare and requires another rare to actually be good and yes I agree that its current damage percentage is ridiculous.

Since your key point seems to be that chaosweaver trivializes fights through the use of cannon, do you have any actual examples of this occurring?



The_element -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/13/2021 16:15:27)

@ NotKun-

quote:

I like how you quoted me and then proceed to ignore the portion of it where I mentioned that since reverting the changes he mentioned that he had overestimated the impact that boosted trinket skills had on the Inn meta, this statement was made in conjunction with reverting the boost changes and is certainly more relevant than the quote you keep using which was part of an ongoing discussion the night prior(yes I was incorrect about when it was in my original post) about the changes.


I didn’t quote that part, because it seemed you were confused about his quote. Here is a quote by Verlyrus from his Twitter on 11/04/21:

quote:

Regarding why these changes were made/reverted: I should have thought out the changes better before implementing them. I think there's still issues that need to be solved regarding Trinkets and Boost and usability, but I was also overestimating their impact.


It’s obvious that Verlyrus thinks that there are issues with boosting high damage trinkets (like cannon, chi blast and DFF), but boosting trinkets itself can stay. It’s very likely that these high damage trinkets are going to get a damage nerf.

quote:

You keep mentioning chaosweaver trivializing fights with cannon/chi blast without actually addressing my point regarding its use case being niche even for chaosweaver or providing any actual examples of this happening. Also the fact that you are lumping chi blast (a trinket that is completely irrelevant to the inn meta outside of AARGH where it is used simply to increase clear time and is not needed) with cannon tells me that you clearly don't know what you are talking about.


I was lumping cannon, chi blast and DFF together as these are the 3 trinkets with very high damage, I thought this was obvious. It’s also good that you edited your post to state that chi blast is used quite a lot in AARGH. Come next inn challenge, it wouldn’t surprise me if these 3 trinkets are nerfed.

quote:

Once again you continue to circle back to simply restating what you assume to be his intent even if in the last reversion he clearly stated that he overestimated the use of boosted trinket damage in the Inn meta.


Once again, here is a tweet by Verlyrus:

quote:

Regarding why these changes were made/reverted: I should have thought out the changes better before implementing them. I think there's still issues that need to be solved regarding Trinkets and Boost and usability, but I was also overestimating their impact.



quote:

You can assume all you want about the stats that these trinkets will gain after the 300% nerf you assume will happen but that does not "justify" their use, they will simply not be used, a 300% damage trinket does not have enough upside over the all stat trinkets (because for like the 400th time their use case in their CURRENT state is already niche and certainly does not trivialize challenges).


I believe we will never agree on this issue, but ultimately boosting cannon on chaosweaver is too strong, there’s a reason why none of chaosweaver’s native skills have a base damage of 400%. Ultimately, my feelings for balance in this particular issue are closer to Verlyrus, so expect nerfs to cannon, chi blast and DFF in the future.

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I won't be mentioning DFF because its a rare and requires another rare to actually be good and yes I agree that its current damage percentage is ridiculous.


At least we can agree on something :--)

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Since your key point seems to be that chaosweaver trivializes fights through the use of cannon, do you have any actual examples of this occurring?


I’m not going to give you a long list of where chaosweaver can trivialize a fight with cannon, but it’s well known that when chaosweaver is combined with chi blast/cannon it can fodderize many challenges especially in AARGH and of course, both cannon and untangle can easily trivialise Zeclem.



Korriban Gaming -> RE: =DF= March 26th Design Notes: Reimagined: March 2021 (4/14/2021 0:54:19)

1. Since the main problem with trinkets benefitting from boost is really just 3 trinkets namely chi bomb, DM cannon and DFF because of their already high base damage, then why not just make it such that only those 3 trinkets don't benefit from boost rather than doing so for every trinket in the game? This can also be implemented for future trinket skills that have high base damage to begin with

2. I really like the revert to GT's change and I think the cost of requiring the blade to be equipped rather than just slotted is a fair cost for using it



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