RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (Full Version)

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Zealwrath -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 12:44:34)

ok first things first epoch was really cool to use second great gods! jeez this one definitely handed me easily. had to go through 5+ class till i said to myself "forget it doomknight to win" beat the boss and i kinda felt really hollow inside for it. didnt even feel like taking the reward this time probably will try again once i get more viable stuff to use with my other classes.



Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 13:04:40)

For DoomKnight V2: since the boss does 1 big hit at a time, void barrier can reflect a lot of damage (especially if you lower your all/health which you should be doing anyways when under void barrier). And Shape Darkness having +500 bonus helps.

Funny enough, DmK V1 isn't that much better here cause it has no high bonus move. Though of course both versions of DmK can just line up their nuke (inner darkness/vengeance) to one shot.

Side note: what is the point of shape darkness having 500 bonus? Just make it auto-hit at that point. Cause you you hit through the titan sun thing and Intaym first turn shield. Is the point just to frustrate people with RNG auto miss?



docblade -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 14:15:27)

Anyone figured out the password yet? I am tired to try to put this thing in the swampy ground. (2.1k damage? REALLY???)



Grandpa Oz -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 16:24:44)

quote:

Anyone figured out the password yet?


spoiler:

B A Start

But you still have to finish the quest to get to the shop ^^
If all else fails, I'd just fall back on Doomknight.



afb728 -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 17:10:10)

I enjoyed the challenge of this quest a lot, and definitely seeing a how the enemies are snatched away was really great for the atmosphere.

Once I finally got to the secret (it took 4 tries for some reason? Like I did everything right and the secret didn't pop up), I really appreciated the world-building and implications of what we found.

My biggest complaint about the boss, honestly, is how arcane the shield is.
"In Shadows: +300 Avd, 1 turn(s) left" is kind of dirty when
1) it's actually four turns and 2) gives no indication of it renewing between turns or after coming out.

Honestly the second one is a bigger problem; it gives no indication that it's stepped back into the shadows after it comes out for one turn.

I think making that more clear, e.g. "The Tizheruk remains in the shadows" on each turn, as well as noting when it steps back in, would make the quest a little less frustrating for new players.




ergotth -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 19:50:50)

I think one single balance change that could help could be giving the boss's first turn without the shield, so people can try AT EAST something like a blinding skill or an initial burst damage (since some classes are equiped with 2 nukes like ShadowWalker and Chaosweaver) OR lower the immobility so we can try a stun during the shield-less turn.



TFS -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 21:25:48)

Or don't change it at all because it:
-Is not excessively difficult to begin with, just requires some engagement with the gameplay.
-Actually has mechanics in a game with too few mechanically unique enemies to begin with (outside of the challenge arena).
-Is completely optional content that doesn't gate off the story at all - it just exists out in the game's world.
-Drops an INSANELY strong item that's way better than the vast majority of endgame challenge rewards when it's way, WAY easier to obtain.

I personally don't agree with the idea that the entirety of the game be warped to match the denominator of players who are the least willing to engage with its mechanics - that's just boring and un-fun for everyone else. The story bosses are already held to this standard (to their detriment) - surely there should be some monsters out in the game's world that can be allowed to fight back.
Even if you can't beat this monster, it's not like you're missing out on story or anything either - after defeating it you're taken immediately to the completion screen, and presumably the next quest won't require completion of this one (as none of the quests in this line have). You're only missing out on an endgame-level item that's already disproportionately strong and clearly hasn't been earned by a player who can't beat the boss monster guarding it.

And, again I reiterate, it's not like this boss monster is excessively difficult, or unfair, or a stat check, or even complex to begin with. You defend for three turns, and attack on the fourth turn. That's it. You can even circumvent this with DoT effects, but that's certainly not necessary or even the intended strategy. Like, you can defeat it as low as level 12, provided you follow the very simple "defend, defend, defend, attack" rotation and use a few DoTs. I (personally, at least) don't think this is excessively arcane or complicated, and it very clearly isn't impossible to do, even when at a massive stat disadvantage to what a normal early-to-mid level character would have. The issue isn't the boss monster, it's an unwillingness to engage with the mechanics or change a strategy that isn't working.

The vast majority of the game is very easily completable by players who don't want to learn mechanics or ask for help, and I don't think the occasional insert of a boss monster into the game's world that bridges the gap between that and the interactive gameplay of DragonFable's endgame is at all a bad thing. If you're struggling with something and can't figure out what its attacks are doing, there are many players and resources willing to help and offer advice - you just have to be willing to change what you're doing. Learning from an experience is a much better outcome for everyone than demanding on Twitter and on here that the game be changed.



NotKun -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/10/2021 23:54:22)

Also not sure what the point is of mentioning two classes that have zero issues with doing this fight. Shadow walker has access to pretty easy shield spam for the high avoidance turns, and then you simply set up your nukes for when it comes out. Chaosweaver ignores the bosses mechanics completely with dragon scout + gambit and can nuke it through the shield.

Putting aside the weak examples, there are so many available classes that can do the fight provided you play around the bosses ONE mechanic. One mechanic thats it, it doesn't hit through shields or have multi hit attacks or stun. The ONE thing it requires is the ability to count to 4 for when you can damage it and to play defensively when you can't. Comparing this to the reward that the quest gives, it's insane to me that people think the boss needs to be toned down. It's already very simple to play around and grants a necklace much better than any necklace you can get in the Inn despite being significantly easier.



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/11/2021 1:29:22)

Excluding a very specific circumstance that doesn't apply here or basically anywhere else, DF is not the kind of game whose difficulty is sinusoidal in that things are difficult at <your level>, easy at <every level higher than you> and also easy at <every level lower than you>.
This fight is also beatable while wearing next to no equips and doing the incredibly simple task of training 200 END, and is even easier the lower level you are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzK6eMsbxlo



DragonKeeper -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/11/2021 3:21:12)

The Tizheruk quest is fairly easy with Ninja armor also. Ninja has plenty of DOTs and four shields.



The Jop -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/11/2021 19:43:09)

Just my two cents on this, I think the Inn at the End of Time already has dozens of challenge fights for players who enjoy that sort of thing. Dragonfable has always been pretty accessible; there are more difficult boss varieties available for those who enjoy the challenge and even a hard mode, but the main story and the majority of side quests can be completed with the starter classes.



Sibixi -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/11/2021 23:04:11)

quote:

My biggest complaint about the boss, honestly, is how arcane the shield is.
"In Shadows: +300 Avd, 1 turn(s) left" is kind of dirty when
1) it's actually four turns and 2) gives no indication of it renewing between turns or after coming out.

Honestly the second one is a bigger problem; it gives no indication that it's stepped back into the shadows after it comes out for one turn.

I think making that more clear, e.g. "The Tizheruk remains in the shadows" on each turn, as well as noting when it steps back in, would make the quest a little less frustrating for new players.


THIS. I had no idea what was up the first time I fought it, so I was twenty different kinds of salty about it, and I kind of still am. Keeping the player in the dark about the boss' mechanics? Unfair, and uncool, especially for ANYTHING outside of the Inn at the Edge of Time.

quote:

I think one single balance change that could help could be giving the boss's first turn without the shield, so people can try AT EAST something like a blinding skill or an initial burst damage (since some classes are equiped with 2 nukes like ShadowWalker and Chaosweaver) OR lower the immobility so we can try a stun during the shield-less turn.


These both sound like pretty fair compromises to me. If I had to choose just one, though, I would absolutely like to suggest nerfing the immobility resistance so that it can't just shield spam more balanced classes into submission 99.99% of the time. Not everybody likes using outrageously broken classes to fight what I would argue are outrageously broken bosses when they show up outside of the Inn.


quote:

Just my two cents on this, I think the Inn at the End of Time already has dozens of challenge fights for players who enjoy that sort of thing.


This, also. Like I said, not everybody is on board with the idea of Inn-worthy endgame boss mechanics showing up outside of the Inn. I'm well aware that this entire post is probably a huge hot take for most Inn enthusiasts, but it's the hill I'm willing to die on regarding this boss.



Theis4321 -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/11/2021 23:24:31)

Took me a few tries to figure out what was going on with the boss's shield, but honestly it really wasn't that difficult in my opinion. I managed to be at it with Riftwalker for it's short shield cooldown and some extra HP potions. As far as non-Inn bosses go, this one's slightly more harder than average, but it's a far cry from anything the Inn has to offer.



AstralCodex -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/12/2021 0:19:49)

quote:

THIS. I had no idea what was up the first time I fought it, so I was twenty different kinds of salty about it, and I kind of still am. Keeping the player in the dark about the boss' mechanics? Unfair, and uncool, especially for ANYTHING outside of the Inn at the Edge of Time.

It's not really being kept in the dark if you notice it leaving shadow every 4 turns, no?

I do agree that the mechanic could be clarified a little more. For example, a "The Tizheruk returns to the Shadow" popup when it gets back its avoidance. But it wouldn't be shadowy and mysterious if it was obvious what was going on, no?

That being said, I would prefer more clarity over direct nerfs.

quote:

re: complains about this being Inn tier


As Theis has said, this boss isn't even close to a modern inn boss. The closest analogue to Tizheruk in the Inn is Illumina, who has almost 8k HP, a 4/5 MPM shield, heals 10% every 5 turns, blinds you, and nukes you every 10 turns. Oh, she gains 500 more MPM if you hit her 4 times, and missing vs her gives her more nuke damage or gives her more all. And she full heals when you knock her below 50% for the first time. And yes, Necromancer trounces her too.



NotKun -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/12/2021 10:47:50)

Not sure where the class thing is coming from considering people have mentioned so many different classes beating the challenge and a whole host of them not being "broken" and in fact rather weak usually. Plenty of starter/progression classes have been mentioned as well as reasonable ways for people to beat the challenge.

Why is it all or nothing? Can nothing in the game even be remotely challenging unless it's in the Inn? People have demonstrated at numerous levels with various classes and gear this challenge is very doable not even accounting for what you consider "broken classes".

Once again this is an optional side quest with an extremely good reward and the difficulty tier doesn't approach anything close to the Inn. Its doable with multiple classes including progression/starter classes at different levels and with different gear. Making the boss stunnable essentially removes any sense of challenge or mechanic from the fight since every class has access to a three turn stun and you just do your usual damage combo or whatever and with guests it most likely dies. That ruins the entire mechanic of the fight which isn't hard to play around in the first place.



The Jop -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/12/2021 18:27:15)

I don't really mind if it's never nerfed, but I just think these types of releases should be discouraged. Part of the appeal of AE games is the nearly weekly releases, and I have little to no interest in the Inn challenges, so they basically amount to months of no content for me. I can't say what the majority of players feel, but many of them are free players without access to better items, so I doubt they want more challenge. The forums are pretty skewed with a large amount of loyal DA owners that have access to better items and skills. Dragonfable's main draw has always been the story and humor, not the challenge. Anyway, that's just my opinion. Even after beating it, I still dislike the boss.



ergotth -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/13/2021 2:20:31)

Not to mention the world isn't going to end if the bosses were back to the "normal" and "hard" difficulty choices, been a while since we had one of those ¬¬ I'm almost sure Verly could purposely release the most broken, unbeatable, INCONVEIVABLE boss just to see how we would react to it (or by accident) and there WILL be a few (but loud) people who will be "GID GUD! I beat it with this class, and this build, and this and that and that means anyone should be able to beat it too! You don't like it? well too bad, this game needs to be more challenging!" And before we know it, Dragonfable will start to suffer from power creep! I've already suffered through three games that didn't acknowledge this until too late, leave Dragonfable out of it!
quote:


Once again this is an optional side quest with an extremely good reward and the difficulty tier doesn't approach anything close to the Inn. Its doable with multiple classes including progression/starter classes at different levels and with different gear. Making the boss stunnable essentially removes any sense of challenge or mechanic from the fight since every class has access to a three turn stun and you just do your usual damage combo or whatever and with guests it most likely dies. That ruins the entire mechanic of the fight which isn't hard to play around in the first place.


Then ballance the rest around it! Its not like the solution is JUST nerfing existing aspects, more can be added to compensate! More HP, give the boss a stun or a debuff, just SOMETHING that isn't so boring as "survive nukes and nuke back in a specific turn". This is just... boring. ALso, it doesn't help this map is very harsh on reruns. Its a roundabout maze and the healing pad (which doesn't heal mana) is opposite to the boss in every way, so if you fail the boss and didn't find the pad.... though. Can the healing pad be AT LEAST moved before the boss for people who need multiple tries or want to test different things out? Since you guys are throwing so many "options", might as well make it less of a torture to test things out!



Laeon val Observis -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/13/2021 3:12:03)

@above power creep is an inevitability in any game, video or trading card among others, and devs can only slow such phenomenon down before setting a new power standard. In any case, if you have been glossing through more recent forum threads, Verly has been thinking of ways to reduce the need for players to engage in trial and error approaches when it comes to battles. Furthermore, I am one of those that do agree that this boss is barely Inn grade (in my prespective, it's a Sporca lite if not a Dragon or Nefarious-grade foe). Plus, this is a strategy game that permits class changes on a dime, therefore exploring various tactics is and should be a must.

In a world building perspective, I see nothing wrong with adding some foes that require a bit more thinking outside of endgame arenas to win provided that the rewards justify it (and in this case, it does). After all, it's bad publicity for our beloved hero and dragon to have their prestige handed over to them in a flimsy silver platter such as destiny/plot armor or musclebrained strats like stun/blind foe on turn 1. In this scenario, all cryptids we were asked to suppress all have above average offense/defense capabilities and cannot be stunned. If I were to try to tone it ever so slightly, I would look into the damage instead of the defense. The defense is already on the fine side.



Dratomos -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/13/2021 3:18:08)

@ergotth, maybe just calm down a bit. Many here have tried to explain that this boss isn't that hard and it's fairly doable. Just because you cannot defeat it with the same class and gear you have used on every other fight, doesn't mean the boss is broken or requires a nerf.

quote:

Then ballance the rest around it! Its not like the solution is JUST nerfing existing aspects, more can be added to compensate! More HP, give the boss a stun or a debuff, just SOMETHING that isn't so boring as "survive nukes and nuke back in a specific turn". This is just... boring. ALso, it doesn't help this map is very harsh on reruns. Its a roundabout maze and the healing pad (which doesn't heal mana) is opposite to the boss in every way, so if you fail the boss and didn't find the pad.... though. Can the healing pad be AT LEAST moved before the boss for people who need multiple tries or want to test different things out? Since you guys are throwing so many "options", might as well make it less of a torture to test things out!


I really don't understand this part. You are saying that boss is currently boring, but if it had more health and could be stunned, it would be more interesting?

Also, there is mana pad in that area too. And the scared enemies aren't that strong that it would require Verly to move it.

Just calm down a bit, bring a strong fire weapon and take your time with the quest. It's full of very interesting surprises.

And the boss can be stunned with Technomancer/Doom Knight and Dragon who has 200 in Mischief. It's not Inn-level unstunnable where those bosses have 300 Immobility.



NotKun -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/13/2021 8:11:49)

quote:

Then ballance the rest around it! Its not like the solution is JUST nerfing existing aspects, more can be added to compensate! More HP, give the boss a stun or a debuff, just SOMETHING that isn't so boring as "survive nukes and nuke back in a specific turn". This is just... boring. ALso, it doesn't help this map is very harsh on reruns. Its a roundabout maze and the healing pad (which doesn't heal mana) is opposite to the boss in every way, so if you fail the boss and didn't find the pad.... though. Can the healing pad be AT LEAST moved before the boss for people who need multiple tries or want to test different things out? Since you guys are throwing so many "options", might as well make it less of a torture to test things out!


You realize the entire point is that its mechanic tells a story that is appropriate with the overall atmosphere of the quest right? Nerfing the avoidance and making it a more generic boss with a stun and more hp completely kills that and also just makes it like any other quest boss. The point is that nerfing existing aspects shouldn't be the answer to oh wow I just did the same rotation that I always do against everything and it didn't work, pls nerf. The reasons you gave like it not being doable with not endgame gear, or being impossible at lvl 70, or only being doable with like one or two classes have been mentioned to be incorrect multiple times in this thread.



Roc -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/13/2021 10:05:29)

Two things we need:

1. Set Home Town at the Inn at the Edge of Time.
2. Flee button just like AQC.

After all, a balanced update.



ergotth -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/13/2021 15:09:00)

@notkun the mechanic kiiiiinda tells a story. Although just for nitpick sake, it could change the name from "hiding in the shadows" to "dive underwater" or something, would make more sense xD Maybe just for fun it could have a liiiittle less avoidance (like, I don't know, 200?) and gain -20 Energy and +100 on fire and +100 Water? Just throwing out a fun idea.

Also, this whole shebang made me think if it would possible for someday Dragonfable try a party system, not just guests, but invite players everywhere, with some heavy balancing to avoid low-level players to just casualy invite that lv100 Doomknight friend, or maybe a registering board where some classes are banned and no matter if you save anotehr class, people who invite your char will get you with the registered set. This way DF could also work on things like a Tank and Healer class in the future and thus, actualy power-creep some bosses for even bigger challenges.



Korriban Gaming -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/14/2021 1:01:30)

As someone who enjoys both the Inn (not quite on the super pro level yet) and regular story, I would say it's moderately difficult for the casual player. Maybe giving people 2 turns to hit it instead of 1 would make it more manageable while still keeping the challenging aspect of it. I don't think the game should be balanced around any group of people in particular but a slightly tougher than normal story boss is still a nice change every once in a while



spirit of greed -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/22/2021 4:17:09)

quote:

I just think these types of releases should be discouraged. Part of the appeal of AE games is the nearly weekly releases, and I have little to no interest in the Inn challenges, so they basically amount to months of no content for me. I can't say what the majority of players feel, but many of them are free players without access to better items, so I doubt they want more challenge. The forums are pretty skewed with a large amount of loyal DA owners that have access to better items and skills. Dragonfable's main draw has always been the story and humor, not the challenge. Anyway, that's just my opinion. Even after beating it, I still dislike the boss


I agree with this 100%. It's great that some people can beat hard bosses and challenges but what about others? Why they don't matter? Just like The Jop said DF should be about story and humor not challenges, at least that's what i play for. In my case i work and don't get much time to play DF other than once a week maybe so i sure don't want to fight challenging enemies, i just want to enjoy the game and finish the story.

I also noticed people who beat bosses like this can't help but be rude to others, basicaly be like: booh hoo stop whining. Jesus people just asking to give an easier option so they could enjoy the game just like the rest. Like it's not even nerfing just an easy option i don't understand why others are so against it.

I also couldn't help but notice bosses got more and more hard recently and when people already missing out every month because of the challenge releases and now even the story releses i just can't support where this game headed.

I saw the arguments against nerfing and here's what i think about them:

1:It's just a side story villain quit whining you don't miss anything: Not true, content is content no matter if it's main story or not. The fact people already missing out because of the Inn challenges just makes it worse.

2: Ok some story bosses is hard but because they were story/saga finishing bosses: This argument bothers me because it didn't make any sense. The corrupt dragon amulet during the Caitiff saga was hard yet the main boss Caitiff much much easier? Or the ice monster at Atealan was hard but not the giant whale at Swordhaven? Or in this case hidebehind and the bear was easy but this one suddenly much harder? Etc.. It doesn't make any sense.

3: Stop complaining get gud it's not even that hard: Great for you but it's pretty hard for me, some people are just like me who's busy with real life and just wants to play it to release some stress. Or just don't want to bother i know unbelievable.

4: More hard bosses doesn't affect players: It's just my opinion but putting more and more hardcore enemies into the game is a bad idea. Most of the players are kids and i highly doubt a 8 year old will bother with strategy when he runs into boss like this and when he gets destroyed even in story missions it's a possibility he just quits the game and stops supporting the game.

All in all i don't want to argue about this, call it me being salty or whining i don't care. I just hate bosses like this and don't like where this game is headed



Dratomos -> RE: =DF= April 9th Design Notes: Wanted: Tizheruk! (4/22/2021 6:37:19)

@spirit_of_greed

quote:

I agree with this 100%. It's great that some people can beat hard bosses and challenges but what about others? Why they don't matter? Just like The Jop said DF should be about story and humor not challenges, at least that's what i play for. In my case i work and don't get much time to play DF other than once a week maybe so i sure don't want to fight challenging enemies, i just want to enjoy the game and finish the story.


The thing is, DF is a game. It's not a book. Sure, it has amazing story and great humor and it's also the main draw for me.

But since it is a game, the challenge should increase the more you progress. There is no reason a boss that is meant to be saga's finale should be as easy as the one you face in early Book 1. DF has been here for 14 years no, so if the bosses get more challenging, that shouldn't be a surprise for you. If the game didn't progress harder the more you play it, why bother with gear system or leveling up?

quote:

1:It's just a side story villain quit whining you don't miss anything: Not true, content is content no matter if it's main story or not. The fact people already missing out because of the Inn challenges just makes it worse.


The point was that since it is optional, it is not a huge miss.

quote:

2: Ok some story bosses is hard but because they were story/saga finishing bosses: This argument bothers me because it didn't make any sense. The corrupt dragon amulet during the Caitiff saga was hard yet the main boss Caitiff much much easier? Or the ice monster at Atealan was hard but not the giant whale at Swordhaven? Or in this case hidebehind and the bear was easy but this one suddenly much harder? Etc.. It doesn't make any sense.


The difficulty curve can be odd sometimes, that I agree with.

quote:

3: Stop complaining get gud it's not even that hard: Great for you but it's pretty hard for me, some people are just like me who's busy with real life and just wants to play it to release some stress. Or just don't want to bother i know unbelievable.

4: More hard bosses doesn't affect players: It's just my opinion but putting more and more hardcore enemies into the game is a bad idea. Most of the players are kids and i highly doubt a 8 year old will bother with strategy when he runs into boss like this and when he gets destroyed even in story missions it's a possibility he just quits the game and stops supporting the game.


I mean, both of these points are very odd to me. Again DF is a game after all, it's not usually surprising, even for kids that, the game gets harder the more you play it. Progression is huge part of DF, and it should be IMO. Why else would you bother with new weapons, items or classes, if it doesn't matter what you use. Why even want new classes, or buffs to them? If the challenge part would be removed entirely from every other part of the game, except Inn?

I get it, before DF was a game where you could beat any quest with the same equipment and class for so long time. But I like that it is changed a bit more challenging. Sure, not every player cannot beat is so easily, or have the access to every gear and class, but it is game. It's not like there is only one way to beat these bosses. And if you don't want to bother thinking when playing, only enjoying the story, that is fine. But I don't think the devs want to create a game where there is no challenge involved, as that would become quite boring (as it might do for some players who played only Book 1).



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