RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (Full Version)

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Aura Knight -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 0:06:45)

quote:

If I might ask, considering the hypothetical of a non-binary chosen, what effect would it have on players who do choose a binary gender? I hope it's clear that I have no desire to affect the gameplay or story of anyone who doesn't wish for it to be impacted. If I were to be granted my pronouns, I fail to see a reason that fans who don't care for it would leave- they should be unaffected.


Would you be ok if there were no changes done to past content to reflect what you want and instead future character creation screens being given additional options for genders that way while you play those characters the quest dialogues can at that point reflect what you chose using that new character? To make changes to past text sounds like a waste especially when we have already established narratives which are quite decent as is. I still don't think details such as character gender is ever important in a story told in game but that's the only way I'd be willing to set aside my dislike for such a suggestion.

You're right that the thought of people leaving over this is unlikely but it's still possible especially if changes are made which add nothing much of value. Think of it this way. Dudes play female characters in plenty of games often because the character models are better so why can't a person identifying as non-binary not play a character limited to only one of 2 genders? There's more to focus on than a character's gender and pronouns. If what you want can be done in a way which doesn't interfere with much at all, I'll stop caring.




Biokirkby -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 0:32:31)

Then perhaps I was unclear. As much as I love being included, the AQ team is small, and I expect no sweeping changes to every quest made. I'm a player too, and I don't want past quests being changed if it means I can't get to necromancy or archmagicks sooner than later.

I made ths post to discuss the desire with the AQ team out of curiousity about how simple it would be to do- after all, if it ended up being as simple as flipping a switch, I'd regret never bringing it up. I'm just here to get the ball rolling for this a potential feature in the future.



Tacos -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 2:00:11)

The point is about a huge majority doesn't care about representation. I'm deaf, but it's not important about me. I could make my own character deaf, but I don't want that and she is not me . If being deaf could be a fun thing with special additions in a game, I look for a game that has it already. If there's a character that just so happens to be deaf, I still wouldn't care strictly about that particular point. If there's a character that is just "lol this character is deaf", I would automatically be annoyed. See where I'm going with this?
The problem with asking for pronouns is that it seems forced. Like I said in a post before, gender was never important thing in Lore. This game is basically "Chosen one, something has happened! Go fix this thing!" and you going "lol, k", maybe fight a god or two at the end. It will stick out like a sore thumb if its applied out of nowwhere.


Honestly, I'm more concerned at how and why the staff keep doing changes despite the popular votes. It's like a spit to the face. My trust is kind of breaking.
(I originally wrote a much longer post but got a error page and the text didn't save so... meh)


EDIT: Adding to Aura's point, there is also a point where I go "man, this armour looks way better on [opposite gender of character I'm playing]. Wish I could have that version." It's not me asking for a gender change, its just me being a fashion hunter so I can kick butt looking awesome in it. I hope this sentence makes sense



Biokirkby -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 2:14:21)

I am trying to give good faith readings of people's responses, but I can only apply so much goodwill to a message with so little. I am not a 2D charicature of a non-binary, and neither would my Chosen be.

Gender is an important element within Lore. It isn't paraded around, but every almost every single character has a gender. There's even a character that (I might be missing lore on this) is actually just a female version of Warlic.
If I were to get my gender represented, it would presumably be no more _forced_ than being masculine or feminine. For my personal Chosen, their gender identity would originate from within them, as mine did.

And of course, it's a minority's idea, but I ask for nothing to be taken away from others. Only adding something because a clear majority of the playerbase wants it would lead to few additions. There is nothing "spitting in your face," there is no trust broken, unless you prioritised a game where my personalised experience specifically denied me elements of my identity regardless of your own experience.



Aura Knight -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 2:45:05)

It's not important in the way you think it is. There hasn't been a quest that I'm aware of where gender of any character was the focus of anything. Usually focus goes towards a particular title they have or what adventure was experienced. The simplicity of keeping a 2 gender system makes stories easier to understand and follow in addition to there not being a need for any art changes. No need to complicate things for personal gain. But whatever happens, happens.



Biokirkby -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 2:50:41)

I am aware of that much. I don't expect any third gender option to be any more important than male and female; Tacos is correct that it would be weird if it was.



Digital X -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 10:23:34)

I understand that this is a sensitive topic, especially during the month of June.

People should have the freedom to choose their own pronouns. I only ask that you main respectful of their choice. Such a topic can get out of hand fairly quickly so I can nipping it in the bud before it escalates.

Nothing is being taken away, but it is something that could be added at the descretion of game staff. Granted as mentioned before, there is a huge backlog to go through if the addition/changes were to be implemented.

I am trying to tread lightly here but I do need to bring up it in a way as not to offend, so please excuse any terms I may have misused.

If you begin writing a post that makes you think "well, hang on a minute, how will this person react if I say <x> or <y>?" Then please take the time to edit your post in a way that does not bring anything negative towards the subject or in a manner that could be deemed disrespectful. I don't have a problem with the topic at hand at all, just please take into consideration others feelings.



All I ask is that any further discussion remains courteous towards each other.

Thank you.



Sir Cloud -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 16:18:43)

quote:

If you begin writing a post that makes you think "well, hang on a minute, how will this person react if I say <x> or <y>?"

XX (female) or XY (male) chromosomes = undeniable science.

Removed the links quoting bible verses and biology. Will keep the post here as I referred to you in my last post prior to locking this thread.



Lorekeeper -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 16:23:48)

No one is arguing biology, and most certainly not religion. Let's not bring even more heated subjects into something that is already being escalated out of proportion by other examples of ignoring what staff and other users are saying.



Digital X -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 16:59:12)

OK, I'm locking this up. Cloud, the quote from my post is a phrase. It was in no way intended to refer to the male/female chromosomes.

For example, "if you have <this> you cannot have <that>"

I'll unlock this in 2 hours, please take this time to reflect and calm down. If this behaviour continues this thread will not be continuing and official warnings will be issued.

Consider this a verbal warning.

----------------------------------------------------

This thread is now unlocked. Please, please take into consideration what has been said. I do not want to see this again. You are more than capable of having a reasonable discussion.



Biokirkby -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 19:43:54)

Thank you, Digital X. I don't believe you've done anything to make anyone uncomfortable.

I did go into this with certain expectations, and I'm not surprised that I was given poor faith readings and some... questionable biology. But overall, I am quite pleased that things are not worse.



Sir Cloud -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 19:57:44)

quote:

I did go into this with certain expectations, and I'm not surprised that I was given poor faith readings and some... questionable biology.

nothing questionable about the scientific biological facts I pointed out earlier. [8|]



Biokirkby -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 21:44:50)

Ignoring the immense potential for an argument there, the biology is irrelevent to me having different pronouns.



GwenMay -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/5/2021 23:19:21)

After checking in on this thread and reading through all the replies, I agree the most with Cray's comment that AQ allowing players to choose pronouns affects others players no more than the color of my guardian characters' capes affects their playthroughs. Its a nice addition to the game if the staff has the time to implement it and adds immersion and roleplaying options for those who choose to pursue it.

I have noticed a lot of concern in this thread about the staff supposedly catering to a "vocal minority," to which I have two points:
1. The forums are not representative of the AQ player population and its likely impossible to determine from posts here alone what the "majority" thinks and
2. AQ is not a democracy and should not be - there are no "votes."

To elaborate on the second point, the staff should not exclusively aim releases at what a majority of players want, because they can broaden the games appeal by including niche playstyles some might enjoy. For example, I have not used a 100 proc magic weapon (a "wand") in years now, and if AQ were to never release another I would be fine with it. Let's pretend for the example that 80% of players feel the same as me about wands - does that mean AQ should never release another wand? No! Wands open up different playstyles that some players enjoy, and their existence does not distract whatsoever from my enjoyment of AQ - I don't like them, so I don't use them, simple as that.

A choice of pronouns option would be the exact same. Even if we assume a majority of AQ players wouldn't use them on one character or another, the players who would use them will genuinely appreciate the option, and the players who don't can ignore them entirely. The only other considerations (and the controlling considerations I think) are the complexity of implementation and whether staff has the time to do so at some point.

As for real world "politics" or "science," that has nothing to do with this request. Fundamentally, its about presenting more options for roleplaying - a reasonable request in a "role-playing game."



jd33 -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 0:15:10)

Some contributions I have to add to the discussion:

1.) I agree with Cray and others that adding an option for they/them or some other practical solution to the issue of roleplaying as non-binary does not affect your character if you choose to not use the feature. You will still be able to play as he / her, the only thing this change would add is inclusivity, as more choices are added but none are taken away from anyone currently.

2.) I agree that going back to edit past content with the exception of maybe a few quests like character creation, very very important story quests, etc. should not be a priority and is likely not even possible. I do not know the technical method they would use to implement theoretical features like this, but the most practical one should likely be sought. That may mean only new Quests from here on out have this feature, or another option the staff views is appropriate.

3.) Indeed you are not your character, in the sense of the person that you are in real life is not the character that you play; however the character you play can be heavily influenced by who you are as a person.
Most of my characters are male, but there are times where I will equip a female face for the fashion of it or to use the art, as well as times that my female characters will equip a male face. I don't like being referred to as "she," or "he," outside of the roleplay of each individual character. for me this feature will allow me to set my pronouns as he/him even if I equip someone else's face who chooses otherwise, if I understand how said theoretical feature would work.

4.) Creating the illusion of a vocal minority in order to diminish from the topic at hand helps no one. Who is to say what percentage of the player base will actually view this as a good change, the only real way to do that would be to send out a questionnaire to all the player base and have them complete it, but all of that is unnecessary. It is important enough that there are a few who are asking for this feature and would benefit from it. If this change makes a few people feel more included then it is worth pursuing, with practical considerations kept in the front of our minds.

In conclusion, I strongly disagree that minor changes like this will contribute to the downfall of the game;this would be a small but meaningful change in the very very large game of Adventure Quest. Some will use this feature but some others May not, the important part is more people are included and considered at the end of the day.
I do not view this as a political issue, or one we should bring religion or science into. Players from all backgrounds can benefit from this change.

All the best, ~Mighty Shadow Fox



Sunfyre232 -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 2:28:53)

Agree for the pronoun option moving forward and not touching anything in the game that's already established. It shows growth without putting too much growth on the part of the developers.

Also, this thread (unsurprisingly) does not pass the vibe check, as the kids would call it.



Aura Knight -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 3:12:03)

I get the idea of how this could work but in practice it sounds like a mess. Will character dialogue assume genders/pronouns based on appearances? Irl we aren't allowed to make such assumptions so there may be some backlash over that. But then if we don't make considerations by character appearance are we to just expect dialogue to automatically get things right? You don't know how a character feels and it's rather bold to be assuming you do. Maybe your character's identity isn't what you wish it to be. Is it fair for a fictional character to be at the mercy of the one playing the game? We are the puppetmaster of our own characters but did our character answer whether such a thing is alright?

Even if any of this happens there would also need to be limits to how many peoples can be represented anyway unless you wanna go through and make edits of all dialogue options to allow for the I guess hundred of ways people refer to themselves. Am I allowed to say people or is that also not inclusive? Individuals, collective, whatever may work.

He/Him She/Her They/Them is about as simple as this can get and to go beyond it would only add confusion to often overdetailed dialogues. Because this is something that will barely be noticed there is validity in an argument to not see it done. Nobody would notice and nobody would care. The game has more of a focus on the rewards we get and how we can use them to "break" the game rather than the titles used to address characters when there is any dialogue.



Biokirkby -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 6:43:05)

People is fine, yeah, and you do make some fair points.

As it is the pronouns are assumed from our appearances already- not too unreasonably, since we have control over our faces. Pronouns would definitely have to be something you choose, ideally as a bonus option most people don't have to think about.

It sounds like you're referring to neo-pronouns like xe/xer or whatnot, which I honestly can't speak to personally. Even if we had, like, text fields for pronouns or something, there'd be many other gendered words like sibling or actress that would have to be considered as well. Maybe someone with neo-pronouns- or particularly wants a character with neo-pronouns- can add to this, but to me going with the standard He/She/They makes sense to me if pronouns are ever updated.



Tacos -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 10:24:44)

Of course everyone has a gender in Lore for easy readability (in English). I don't really get the gist of adding extra pronouns just to add extra pronouns, other than representation. There are some languages out there that just doesn't have pronouns (and there are some certain games that created quite a... problem trying to make sense on English translations), and there are some 'fixed' language. For one example in French, we call a group of people the male particle no matter how many women are in the group. And people are fine with that.
I just don't get the extra effort when the Chosen and most of the titles are all blanket terms like 'Hunter', 'Wizard', 'Assassin', and so on. The Chosen just has a face since its more interesting to play as a character, than a blank-faced piece of cardboard.



Lorekeeper -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 11:42:44)

quote:

Will character dialogue assume genders/pronouns based on appearances?


This is already the case with dialogue based on your face. Once again, there would be no change to the experience of anyone not explicitly using such a feature. The neutral 'They/Them/Their/Theirs' has been a writing convention as far back as the Renaissance, predating modern English entirely. AdventureQuest already employs it for genderless characters such as Erebus, as well as certain Elemental Lords to whom gender is irrelevant. It has even been used for the player characters at times when a gendered pronoun wouldn't fit; it potentially becoming an automatically detected pronoun is the entire point of this thread. This has been clear throughout the thread, and is plainly evident as of the original poster's most recent reply.

The remainder of that post pushes the boundaries of outright mockery of fellow users and multiple staff members. There are valid points in opposition to many potential changes, but arguing against an extreme that goes far beyond a simple change suggested by fellow users is not the way to make any of them.

quote:

Nobody would notice and nobody would care.


This thread, and the reactions to the rule breaking within it, prove otherwise several times over.

Multiple warnings have been issued in an attempt to keep things civil. That is as far as such will go. Please do not take our friendly demeanor for a passive attitude any further.



TheKingofDoom&Gloom -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 13:52:48)

Btw, biology got grossly simplified in high school, and XX=female and XY=male is utter nonsense and transphobic rhetoric. Biology is incredibly complicated, more than you can imagine.

Signed, an actual biologist and a trans woman.



Aura Knight -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 13:54:37)

The only reason it's getting any reaction now is because that's what the main focus of this thread is. If this went in game, nobody except those who would like to see it would notice. Idk about others but I end up spam clicking through dialogues, barely reading anything and I know this is something no writer likes to be told but not my fault I have more interest in rewards than text. And even if it could be in game as a sort of stealth update if you will, doesn't mean it's an update worth doing but seems it will happen regardless. So much for discussion. When one side gets ignored and labeled all kinds of heinous things though not directly, makes one wonder how truly accepting we are here. Words do not reflect actions always so while I may dislike the idea of what this proposes it's not like I'd give others grief over such a thing if this were a real life situation. In the real world something such as this is not a priority in everyday thought for most people and only comes into focus when someone makes a spectacle over what is often an honest mistake.

I don't understand how so many can be easily convinced to give in to demands of a change that offers nothing at all of benefit. I think I mentioned self satisfaction or something and that is exactly what this would give. The idea that representation needs to be in everything shifts focus from what is truly important, an enjoyable and entertaining game. You can say this won't change things much but this is how all things start. You give in once and you have to do it again over and over and even when this happens the party that wants any change will never be satisfied and at that point you'd wonder why you even gave in at all. The exact thing happened with the absurd argument over a statue design on a weapon. So, regardless of what I think this is happening anyway. This hivemind of support out of fear of being an outcast is how you fail to improve things for the benefit of all by only catering to the few.

Don't suppose there can be options to include this concept of preferred pronouns for those that want it and one to keep things simple with only using masculine and feminine references for those who don't. Those who wish to see extra mentions can do so but those who don't shouldn't have to. This, to me, is fairness in what I still believe is an unnecessary change which will likely come.



Cupquake -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 14:36:46)

quote:

Btw, biology got grossly simplified in high school, and XX=female and XY=male is utter nonsense and transphobic rhetoric.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how that is transphobic. This thread doesn't need to become even more heated than it already is by throwing accusations around. The thread is specifically about pronouns.



TheKingofDoom&Gloom -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 14:41:20)

quote:

I'm sorry but I fail to see how that is transphobic.


Only trans people get to decide what is and isn't transphobic.



Aura Knight -> RE: Possibility of choosing Pronouns (6/6/2021 14:45:14)

The only exceptions I can see is when there's an extra chromosome but at that point what ends up happening is referred to as birth defect which makes it against the expected norm in one's biological makeup. Nothing phobic about it. Biological rules don't adhere to one's feelings about who they are as a person.



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