SpellCaster Lean Discussion (Full Version)

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Sapphire -> SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/12/2021 15:56:37)

I know players think it's a bit .....off.... Until Necromancer...and I think the abilities within Necromancer shine when you toggle to Spellcaster lean (Though, Necromancer is bugged. The ele comp part randomly gets reduced from 1.832 to 1.6-something and the fire/ice from 1.4 to 1.3...and you have to switch out and switch back in)


But this had me thinking about the Lean as a whole.

I think the current iteration doesn't make sense. You do 0.8 Offense, Take 1.25 defense, and you get a random boost to an element, *usually* to the element that is your best defensive resistance... So they want you to fight darkness monsters, that have good darkness resistance... cancelling out the ele comp either completely, or somewhat...and if you fight a monster what's weak to your ele comped element, you will do more damage but you will get bombed.

I find this system undesireable unless you're reliably inflicting paralyze-like effects.


So what if..

The Lean's offense and defense stays the same..

But you get a X1.25 to all spells. And THEN you get the ele comp boost to your defensive element of X1.4656...making it the same 1.832.

Or what would you do? Or do you think it's fine? Should there be a further decrease to offense and further decrease to defense?


And should there be a "beastmaster" lean that kind of does similar things? Boosted pet/guest damage by default? Further decrease to offense, further decrease to defense?



RobynJoanne -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/12/2021 16:58:27)

This is all completely intended. Spellcaster lean takes advantage of elecomp, and elecomp gets stronger the riskier it is. You are rewarded for fighting monsters against their weakest elements without defenses against their own element. This has been implemented in so many armors (literally all armors that are locked to an element that is not Harm) that it is practically universallly accepted by the general community. Necromancer already has plenty of spells that benefit from elecomp, so Spellcaster lean is not doing anything new for the class. Haunting is especially notable since it does not inflict any status effect, so it's purely used as a nuking spell.

People disliked Spellcaster lean in the past because it had an additive boost, which made it much weaker than the elemental Wizard's Robes.

I think a better question to ask is why Necromancer gets double elecomp (one in its in-built spells and one in its Spellcaster lean), which is completely unprecedented. This double elecomp makes Necromancer by far the most powerful darkness nuke in the game, and the double elecomp makes Necromancer's spells so strong that their intended uses are muddled. The Grasp Essence spells are supposed to be used to eat status effects to heal oneself. With Spellcaster lean brought in, these spells are able to heal a fairly substantial amount even without these status effects.



Sapphire -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/12/2021 17:50:23)

Yeah I understand about Necromancer. It's overpowered for sure. But the Spellcaster lean + Haunting isn't "double elecomp". It's spellcaster lean with the darkness ele comp plus a built in "overcharged" spell that costs 40% more. It's no different than if you used destruction burst or something except Haunting comes with the armor.


Grasp Essence is what makes Necromancer overpowered.


But The point is I have seen comments about the spellcaster lean being ....undesireable...like something's off or missing.

But IDK how most people feel. I feel like until Necromancer with the built in abilities, it did feel off to me. The ones I have and tried I ended up not liking at all...So I wanted to see if someone had a good "fix" or idea and we could discuss it...




RobynJoanne -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/12/2021 18:03:14)

I'm pretty sure Haunting has its own elecomp. The info subs state the following:
quote:

LEVEL 13 - HAUNTING
Standard Darkness spell. Gets eleComp to damage. 6 hits, costs MP.
Dark Haunting: Standard spell
Precise Haunting [Level 16]: Efficient, costs 40% of the usual cost and deals -37.5% damage.
Grand Haunting [Level 20]: Overcharged, costs 140% of the usual cost and deals +25% damage.

It's a clone of Paladin's Inner Light, which also gets elecomp on top of its damage bonus/loss from efficiency.

I would much prefer a "Beastmaster lean" instead of Spellcaster lean, but I know it'll be an unpopular choice. Necromancer's a fantastic nuke armor, and that gives it far more usability amongst a greater portion of the player base. The truth is that beastmasters are relatively rare, and they're far more likely to use Bard of War or Sol Neko instead of Necromancer as their primary armors. Necromancer just provides them with more pets and guests.



Sapphire -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/12/2021 18:39:21)

I own one Bard armor, and while its ok, and gets better with clever disguise as you get it's celerity plus the miscs, so you get one to spare, it doesnt compare to Sol Neko.

Neko now outclasses every armor a bestmaster would like to play in. Necro is fine, too. But if there was a beastmaster LEAN, that could change.


Also, I missed that the L13 Haunting was ele comped. Is it the standard amount? How is it compared to Grand Haunting?



RobynJoanne -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/12/2021 18:52:14)

Bard of War works best to either stun-lock monsters with beasts that are both using a stun toggle or to maximize the effect of weapons like Foam Finger or Ancient Mother Staff.

I don't know the exact amount of elecomp, but I'm pretty sure it's the same for all the Haunting spells. They're the same spell, except for changes in efficiency.



Kaizoku -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/13/2021 8:30:24)

quote:

And should there be a "beastmaster" lean that kind of does similar things? Boosted pet/guest damage by default? Further decrease to offense, further decrease to defense?

There was, but people hated it.
quote:

Formally used a beastmaster lean (take *1 damage, deal *0.8 damage, pets and guests deal +20% damage). Changed to full-defensive and the Inspire Pet and Guests skills added.



Sapphire -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/13/2021 9:18:47)

Yes, perhaps so. I am on the fence though. I think staff has taken different already implemented ideas, and rolled into one and now players are questioning it. I think it's fine and here's why.

Bloodmage
1. Built in Ele Comped Spell
2. +50% to all Spells
3. #2 is paid for via HP's
4. The armor is Fully Offensive

Necromancer

1. Built in Ele Comped Spell. Overcharged paid for via increased MP Cost
2.+83% to darkness, +44% to fire/ice, no other boosts
3. #2 is Paid for by the actual LEAN
4. The Lean is bad weapon attacks, bad defense

The double ele comp I think is fine


The armor is not overpowered because it can nuke. Its overpowered because it can heal, MP heal, and create crazy good resistance with Grasp Essence





RobynJoanne -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/13/2021 11:45:32)

Double elecomp is what causes all those problems, though. It makes all of these (nukes, Grasp Essence heals and eleshields) far more powerful. Elecomp is far stronger than Bloodmage's spell damage boost since it's both outright higher in number and multiplicative.

I could envision a beastmaster-lean that's more akin to Sol Neko's toggles that sacrifice the defensive bonuses for status effects. It'd play into Necromancer's beastmaster side more and still boost Grasp Essence without being ridiculous like how it is right now. I understand that this would make Necromancer far weaker as a mage, which would be a very unpopular suggestion, and I honestly think that it would make Necromancer overemphasize its beastmaster aspects. I just don't think Spellcaster lean as it is implemented right now is the answer.



Sapphire -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/13/2021 11:54:33)

Well, I may have misled on my original post but I never suggested beastmaster lean for Necromancer. It was more of as an aside....

The grasp Essence getting ele comp is offset somewhat by damage penalties, but it's likely not enough since it gets ele comp and two of them can eat fear/bleed.

At the end of the day, I think Haunting is fine, spellcaster lean is fine as it's implemented here, but think spellcaster lean on other armors is bad...

And I think Grasp Essence needs looked at.



Kurtz96 -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/13/2021 13:55:27)

dark arcane cutlass is coming too.

the 150 Necromancer nuke will be ridiculously powerful.



Zennistrad -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/15/2021 20:48:56)

quote:

Double elecomp is what causes all those problems, though. It makes all of these (nukes, Grasp Essence heals and eleshields) far more powerful. Elecomp is far stronger than Bloodmage's spell damage boost since it's both outright higher in number and multiplicative.


I do wonder how much of this overpowered-ness might be mitigated by returning spellcaster leans to additive bonuses, rather than multiplicative.

Back when spellcaster leans were first released many complained that it was too weak because it wasn't multiplicative. But when it's on a class that has the lean combined with elecomp already built into the spells, that strikes me as a moot point

Alternatively, rather than changing the lean itself, I think there's something to be said for introducing more enemies that have a natural advantage against mages. Absurdly high magic defenses that make it difficult to hit, or enemies with hard caps against damage dealt by anything other than weapons, pets, and guests, etc.



Sapphire -> RE: SpellCaster Lean Discussion (9/16/2021 11:09:15)

@Roby, I think the ele comps is not what makes grasp essence so powerful. Staff can take the ele comps and consider it, then recode grasp essence altogether. I do see the crazy power of it, though. The results from stacking similar things fear/bleed/eleshield then using grasp essence results in game breaking things.

@Zenn I am not so sure going back to additive is necessary, but more monsters that can absorb magic attacks is needed for sure, as well as monsters that actually USE MP.

Edit-> Also, even monsters that do not use MP typically have some. They have enough to allow Necromancer to eat it and create outstanding all ele resistance when stacked with other forms prior to the spell being casted.

Maybe monsters without the use of MP simply need to have zero MP







New edit-> I think after much thought, spellcaster lean may be fine *if* it gets up to 3 ele comped abilities similar to Necromancer..with the main being 1.832 and two more at 1.44. Older armors just had 1 like brilhado robes and it made it seem way way way too specialized



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