Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (Full Version)

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Dreiko Shadrack -> Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 1:25:46)

As it currently stands Frostval is the only recurring seasonal event in AQ that does not offer any form of a centralized global hub for past and current questlines. Instead it follows its own specific set of rules in terms of what the event paintings offer, namely that they only offer access to the questline associated with that year's particular painting, no other event functions like this, not even the Void of which this ruleset is most alike.

Snugglefest, Grenwog, Blarney, April Fool's, Mogloween, Harvest Fest and even Pirate's Day have their own centralized hubs (though admittedly only the last one isn't accessible via painting but instead via warlic's shop), the Void has its takeover bosses set to a rotation...making Frostval the only event, that isn't a one-off, where experiencing past content is impossible at any given time, not even during the event itself.

So, the question is why? What reasoning is there for this specific and unique ruleset?

Is it because of the Guardian Giftboxes?
Those aren't directly tied to the Frostval questlines, they merely happen to be purchasable during the Frostval season and only the Delivery War is tangentially related to them, the current Frostval paintings have no issue offering their individual questlines without these giftboxes so it's certainly not the reason.

Is it because to change it would invoke displeasure from those that bought the paintings already?
If this would be the case then why bring back the Void bosses on a set rotation? Those paintings also were the only way to access those bosses prior to the rotation and I certainly haven't seen anyone complain about it to a noticeable degree. So, surely this one isn't the reason either.

Is it because Frostval is held to a higher degree of value than the other seasonals?
Certainly Frostval is one of the oldest type of seasonal events in AQ and is treated as special by the playerbase and staff alike, after all it is the only one that offers full month long questlines rather than a single new quest per year. But is that really reason enough to not follow the accessibility rules of all the other events?

Is it a monetary reason?
Sure, the asking price of 1500 tokens for a painting every year could be argued to be the reason but I'd have to use the same Void counterargument, seeing as all bosses are on a rotation you don't have to get any of the paintings except for farming related reasons and if all you want is a specific item the wait for that boss is no more annoying than waiting for Frostval itself to come around again.

Frankly, I don't really see any good reasoning as to why it's unique in this regard, it is in my opinion the sort of discrepancy that serves no purpose other than to waste resources, waste time and to segregate players from those that were active at the time and those that weren't. Not being able to experience so many quests, not even during the event itself? I find it inexcusable without a good reason for it to be like this.

I would be most appreciative of an official response to this but it's a busy season.

And so I turn the questions onto you, fellow adventurers: why do you think this is the case? Do you mind that there's a discrepancy? If not, why?

Happy holidays, keep this civil either way. [:)]

EDIT: Just so we're clear, I'm not asking for Frostval to be made to follow the other seasonals, I'm asking for the reason as to why it doesn't.



PD -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 2:20:44)

I have… much to say of this discussion having been against these kinds of things for years. But only now is it becoming apparent what damage these kinds of things do in the long term. I will say in terms of rhetoric though, the very asking of this question invites the discussion of demanding reforms, if we come to the conclusion that none of this makes sense. That being said, despite my polemics from other discussions, I want to say at least this much:

1. It’s worth noting that as I said before, Frostval hasn’t had portals for itself since 2014. Thus the argument for angering the people who bought paintings won’t apply pre-2014.

2. I suspect much of this discussion will lie on the heels of personal judgement. There’s wide acknowledgment that staff indeed can do as they please with the product. Thus much is even acknowledged amongst themselves. The power shall lie within us the community to make a collective decision about being willing to confront this issue and come to a consensus, and ultimately give our consent to that said solution so that it may be done.

3. On the heels of the camp that will argue against any changes or even be hostile to reforms, some acknowledgement is going to be conceded that Frostval being as it is does do massive damage to the development of the game long term. And I offer 3 argument to this, irrespective of personal opinion:

  • Frostval because of its length has been a great contributor to the lack of existing content and the multitudes of equipment gaps that do exist. Particular in the respect to the element it usually represents, Ice and its adjacent element, water. Both elements which are in the most dire need of coverage. Particularly this year, we will not finish the MC Saga and will have to wait until next year for this, when the bandwidth is available for that.

  • A symptom of the problem of unobtainable content, the asking of more inventory space has been one that has been asked repeatedly. No doubt the current cap is low, but it’s exacerbated by the amount of unobtainable content. With permanent content, you can be much more flexible about it. If you need the space, you can sell items to make room, and then buy it again when you do need it. But unobtainables (and let’s stop using rares as a term. The correct term for this unobtainable) you cannot be so flexible. Your only option is to vault items to other characters, but more inventory slots which will run out eventually, or in the worst case sell unobtainable that don’t have any effects. But you cannot buy them back later.

  • As an addendum to the first point, these kinds of things worsen playability in that it’s difficult to follow character progression. I already made the “Extra Characters” thread awhile ago about how incredibly difficult the game is without access to seasonal and/or unobtainable content. It interrupts the a possible flow of character power progression and makes the game unfun to play at a level not at a maximum or even F2P. Even as someone who had been playing for years, every boss challenge in the game pales in comparison to a true new player experience. And a large component of that lack of centralized progression is of course intermittent content which Frostval is certainly the worst offender of. It’s just incredibly difficult to play when you are effectively playing with two hands behind the back.

    4. Admittingly I will be on the most extreme of the other side of the camp, which in its ideal scenario demands complete reform irrespective of any sentimental judgement against it. But understanding this is likely going to be a tall order, both from a pragmatic standpoint and acknowledgment that there is work beyond just doing what we think we ought to do.

    5. I have mentioned before elsewhere. But Guardian Giftboxes are the equivalent of an MC set, on top of the MC set that is also prepped in advance. And then there’s also the delivery set which while not explicitly a set like the giftboxes, pieces together as one. Certainly if not in judgement, Frostval indeed gives us the most items content wise. But this speaks to the above issues where it’s responsible for massive equipment gaps. Perhaps there maybe still people out there who will still argue against accessibility. They may even have a valid concern if there was money involved. Yet there still must be acknowledgment outside of personal judgement the playability gaps. We certainly at least owe ourselves enough to make sure the game is playable and approachable.

    I was going to make a longer post about this when Frostval was over so so could let AQ finish for 2021 and have a better picture. The staff had commited itself in word at least, to focus more on updates, accessibility and other pressing overhauls that are widely acknowledged in need. Let’s hope they follow on their word. It’s going to be a crucial year 2022 for sure no matter what happens. And we’ll all be in it for that ride where ever it takes us.



    • Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 2:28:45)

    I'll only really comment on point number 5 there to make a crucial distinction.
    Unlike the Frostval quests themselves the guardian giftboxes have long been explicitly stated to be meant to be permanently rare, such promises should be maintained. The quests from the event themselves (and their rewards) however were never given such an explicit statement towards their availability, there may have been an implicit statement but to my knowledge never an explicit one.



    battlesiege15 -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 9:40:58)

    I personally would love to have access to prior Frostval events for both storyline purposes and because some of those bosses are fun to fight.

    Having paintings would be great for those who want to play the quest anytime during the year so I don't know how much of an issue it will be if the quests were brought back seasonally. It's not like they can get rewards anyways.

    That said, I don't know if having a 1500 token price is justified if the painting is a) only for 1 season's quest line and b) if there are no rewards you can access with it (I think...)



    J9408 -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 9:49:18)

    The last time this topic was brought up, the promise of rarity was pretty much the reason.

    Would "Twisted" versions of these items be a problem?



    Sapphire -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 10:12:51)

    There are those who wish old items stay rare, because as pointed out in other thread, there are items that would have to be brought up to current standards as they are currently broken ...broken to the detriment of monsters. It is *the* underlying reason. So as long as their character remains on cheat mode, because they happened to be around at that time and you were not, so therefore it's ok..by them.

    I am not taking the position above. This is what seemed to come out of the discussion a bit, whether by accident or by admittance I don't remember fully and I'm not going to go back and reread every post, but it did seem to be the overarching reason and really has nothing to do with "promise of rares". There are those that would become extremely upset....and it sounded like for the reason above. Unsure if that's it. But again, the previous discussion alluded to it. Who knows.

    Either way, and no matter the reason or reasons behind it, the best long term play is to find a way to bring items back for all, new or old players. It will always be a form of new content for someone. And that's a good thing. And I already put forth my idea on how to do this in the previous discussion.

    1. Painting per year
    2. Released in decorate the tree quest. There is the half price token items event ongoing at that time.
    3. Inside the painting, is all that year's quests/rewards, *and* scaling z token versions of that year's Guardian Gift Boxes
    4. Going to have to update everything, and make sure everything is on today's balanced standards. Argument against this is selfish.
    5. This year's painting in the final quest/war's reward shop.

    I know that's likely a massive project. And I know that time/manpower is at issue, as per usual. Hopefully this upcoming year, which is supposed to be a huge QoL update year, can tackle this.

    -Hold's up a glass of Frostval Moglin-EggNog- Here's to doing the right thing and to all the improvments in 2022! -Drinks-



    Heroes of the Scape -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 11:44:28)

    quote:

    There are those who wish old items stay rare, because as pointed out in other thread, there are items that would have to be brought up to current standards as they are currently broken ...broken to the detriment of monsters. It is *the* underlying reason. So as long as their character remains on cheat mode, because they happened to be around at that time and you were not, so therefore it's ok..by them.


    Please point out where it was said that not bringing back Rares is because we are afraid of nerfs. You can't throw out those accusations and not back them up. That's not how it works. Most items available in the quests are far from broken. You may be confusing the giftboxen, which has had a lot of really powerful gear over the recent years.

    quote:

    Painting per year


    This is fine. I agree that the quests should be available. (see, I'm not out to kill all your ideas), The issue is balancing how to release them. If you release a general portal, it penalizes those that bought the portals from 2014 onward. It could be done individually, but that leads to a lot of portals. It may be best to release one for pre-2014 content, and the yearly ones after that.

    quote:

    Released in decorate the tree quest. There is the half price token items event ongoing at that time.


    This leads to more work for the staff as the quests need to be manually added to the portal. That's why there have been many times that other events have gone months before the quest gets added to the portal. Release after delivery is fine. Also, a sale is not a valid reason to release something.

    quote:

    Inside the painting, is all that year's quests/rewards, *and* scaling z token versions of that year's Guardian Gift Boxes


    Quest list as it is now, yes. Quest rewards, after beating the quests as always. Guardian giftboxen, No. and not because of "being a cheat mode". It has been stated before, release the abilities in a different item, not the exact item. They have done this many times already for the older ones.

    quote:

    Going to have to update everything, and make sure everything is on today's balanced standards. Argument against this is selfish.


    Updates happen when the staff has time. That's why things like PR, EO, and many other items available to everyone haven't been fixed yet and why it took almost a year for the DL bug to be fixed. There is not a magic button to press and poof, the item is on current standards. It's not about selfishness, it's about the laws of time and programing. I'll hold my tongue about what is really selfish in this case, but maybe you can fill in the blanks.

    quote:

    This year's painting in the final quest/war's reward shop.


    As it should be every year.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 19:19:10)

    I very much agree with @Heroes of the Scape. A pre-2014 painting, as well as one for each year after that. They should contain i). the quests and ii). the adventurer gear. Guardian Giftboxes should remain perma-rare, but functionally identical items released in their place so new players don't miss out on the effects. When the functionally identical items get released, it should be on modern balance and the old item should receive a retroactive update. This gives new players access to the old content, allows old players art exclusivity and prevents a high workload for staff.



    Macho Man -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/15/2021 19:46:01)

    Sorry for not reading most of this thread but in terms of bringing back rares couldn't we make a basic armour/shield/weapon/misc/pet item that is super generic and boring, but add the effects from the corresponding rares? I remember WAAY back when we were begging for a high level ice weapon, the staff literally made an ice stick that was just a blue triangle to help cover the gap. I wonder if the staff could make basic equipment that wouldn't take as much effort in making artistically, but allow the abilities of rares to be put into them? I love Full Metal Santa and want it updated but I do want to keep it a perma rare, but if there was a generic armour available with the same stats I wouldn't mind at all.



    Nameless King -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/16/2021 1:00:04)

    I totally like the idea of the quest and reward for previous Frostvale to be in one painting~As much as I love the look of FMS,I'll just let it remain rare tbh~



    Sapphire -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/16/2021 12:27:58)

    Call me crazy, but releasing new items with the same functionality of every frostval quest reward seems like the complete opposite of preventing a high workload for staff, in comparison to just updating existing items and releasing them somehow.

    I can think of perhaps two items that I would want, only because I accidentally or stupidly sold them...and due to power creep I don't see really anything, even the two items I mentioned, that I would really use. So I think I personally have very little skin in the game, but I think there are far far far faaaaaaaaaar better ways to handle it.

    I think I saw something about there are those who may own an old frostval painting circa 2014? And this gives access to years prior? If I'm off on this, let me know. But if that's the case, I don't see the logic in a new pre-2014 painting, and one for every year thereafter. If I owned the original painting, I wouldn't want a new painting for every year prior. Seems to me you'd be at an advantage by having multiple years in 1 hub, and with the way the painting access system works and having to sit there and wait for the scroll (not bad but still), it's just better. If that's not the case, enlighten me as I'm completely not sure about what the 2014 painting thing is all about. But I'm sure the attempts to placate to item collectors will win out, either way.

    I might be in the minority, but honestly unless all things were literally equal, only then and ONLY then would I make a decision on an item based on art. The better item will always win even if the art is bad. (yay bard of war ftw)






    The Hollow -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/16/2021 15:14:30)

    Outdated files are the main reason there isn't access to every previous Frostval event. The annual Guardian Giftboxes will remain rare, but there will be previous year's Frostval Portal Paintings added to the Limited-Time Shop when the Gift Delivery ends... at least back to '17. If the files aren't too outdated/problematic, we'll release all of the Frostval Portal Paintings going back to '14. The new price for the paintings will be updated from 1500 to 2500.



    PD -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/16/2021 15:49:05)

    Wow, thank you so much Hollow! This is but the first step, but this is goes a long way into making the game that much more playable.

    Hopefully we can also get the issues sorted out with the 2014-2017 stuff and go back as far as we can. I for one really want to replay stuff like Frost King, Chillax, ZANTA, ect.



    Heroes of the Scape -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/16/2021 15:50:52)

    quote:

    I think I saw something about there are those who may own an old frostval painting circa 2014? And this gives access to years prior?


    I have the 2014 painting and can confirm it does not give access to the earlier quests. Only the 2014 ones.

    Thanks Hollow. I am glad newer players will get to enjoy those awesome quests and rewards.



    Nameless King -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/16/2021 20:44:22)

    Ooof a lil bit closer and I might be able to fight chillax again and get the chillax crusader armor...........what a painful year this is......



    JhyShy -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/17/2021 0:17:40)

    I hope the painting costs 1.5k for it's initial year then bumped to 2.5k in later years, like this year's costs 1.5k then next year it'll cost 2.5k



    J9408 -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/17/2021 11:22:52)

    Speaking of cost, is this year Frostval Painting price 1500 or 2500 tokens?



    Sapphire -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/17/2021 15:29:41)

    Frostval paintings will all cost 2500. Fair compromise



    Dr Disrespect -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/18/2021 7:37:00)

    quote:

    Hopefully we can also get the issues sorted out with the 2014-2017 stuff and go back as far as we can. I for one really want to replay stuff like Frost King, Chillax, ZANTA, ect.

    This. It would be amazing if we could get the items and quests for pre 2014 Frostval events as well. I still regret selling so many of those old items.



    Lv 1000 -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/18/2021 10:05:34)

    Thinking realistically, I get the impression that creating new paintings isn’t part of the plan, but rather re-releasing those that have already been made. I would be wrong though.



    Dr Disrespect -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/18/2021 10:21:05)

    @above
    Very true, Hollow did mention that the present plan is to try and re-release all the old Frostval paintings which in itself is somewhat difficult. The chances of the staff actually creating new paintings for pre-2014 Frostval stuff and the files being in working order is miniscule. One can always hope though.



    Warren. -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/18/2021 10:52:12)

    quote:

    If the files aren't too outdated/problematic, we'll release all of the Frostval Portal Paintings going back to '14. The new price for the paintings will be updated from 1500 to 2500.


    Wow this is an awesome move! very excited for this. It would be nice if we could go before "14 though



    Bolter -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/20/2021 8:31:28)

    Should they decide to bring back the older Frostval events via paintings, I hope their sets will have their tiers being updated too though, i.e. the highest lv versions will be lv150G instead of lv145G.



    Sapphire -> RE: Of Frostval, seasonal events and hubs (12/20/2021 22:37:16)

    Went back and forth whether or not to ask here, go to Q&A, or do a new discussion thread, so decided here for now.

    Since the paintings at the very least will be attempted, I was curious if anyone had accurate info as to the quests and rewards tied to them for the past Frostvals ? Maybe someone could compile going back as far as they can just so that people can look and potentially make decisions on whats inside of each painting foir those that may only are able to get 1, or 2, etc paintings. Also, many players may not remember or even know about some items. I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor to compile it someplace as we head into the Delivery War.



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