=DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (Full Version)

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Peachii -> =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/4/2022 20:19:15)

quote:

[image]https://www.dragonfable.com/images/DF/author/Verlyrus.png[/image]
Verlyrus:
Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation

Hey there, heroes!

This month's Arena challenge has arrived! We return to the Tenets of Devotion board with a pair of dedicated souls...

[image]https://cms.battleon.com/DF/images/TENETS2dn.png[/image]

Can you outweave Tomix, the Weaver on a Mission? Can you burn brighter than Drakonnan, the Forge of Vengeance? Defeat both of them to earn and upgrade Drakonnan's Warhelm!

Head over to the Inn at the Edge of Time using the portal above Falconreach to face the awaiting challenges!



Also this week, the February Dragon Coin specials have arrived! Along with the specials of previous years, we have a new cosmetic cape available: The Jadesoul Tiger Cloak!

[image]https://cms.battleon.com/DF/images/Promo-DCFeb2022.png[/image]

Check out the new and returning items in the Book of Lore's Seasonal shops page!



Finally, coming soon... AdventureFriends returns in...

[image]https://cms.battleon.com/DF/images/SPAF2EDELIA.png[/image]



And that's all for this week!

Have feedback about recent releases? Have any crazy theories or ideas? Want to discuss all things DragonFable?

Join the discussion on the official forums!

Want to play DragonFable without using an internet browser?

Check out the Artix Games Launcher!

Follow us on Twitter for sneak peeks and updates (and feel free to tweet us your fan art and feedback too!)

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Tags: #Verlyrus




Laeon val Observis -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/4/2022 22:42:03)

Took a bit of a peek at each solo, and..
spoiler:

Tomix is buff heavy and showing off why he was our trainer for soulweaving. His synchro is also more visually appealing as it is deadly (seems to improve his buffs and unlike us, is permanent), and the fact that he has a "foes soul resist" popup means we'll be on the receiving end of a banishing strike after Inn Vaal.

Drakonnan feels like egomaniacs flashbacks on his own with how hard ha can hit. Before he roasted me, it seems his AllRes plummets for every crit he sustains.




spirit of greed -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/5/2022 0:32:22)

2 really interesting enemy in the inn this time, feels really good to fight with with them even though it's challenging.

Can't wait for next week i'm so excited for this release. Last year's AdventureFriends was hands down one of the best release of DF's (too bad it's once a year thing [:(] ).
And it looks like we get to go to Edelia so one my favorite theme (soulweawing) added to my favorite release. [:)]




Flabagast -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/5/2022 4:01:24)

Two old friends...

spoiler:

Tomix seemed challenging enough at first, and then he synchronised with Pandora! Oof. I love the cosmetic change though - makes me wish he looked liked that in the Weaver Saga!

Drakonnan's gotten a makeover of his own as well; a much more... modest version of his old get up, which I don't dislike. And I remember his Book 1 counterpart being a little too easy for all that story build-up so I'm glad he's shown up at the Inn!
Edit: Something I found out while fighting Drakonnan: after cooling his armour down enough times he will eventually superheat it so that it's unable to be cooled by ice/water attacks, so don't plan your entire strategy around using Ice Scythe or the like and be ready to tank him if you can!


And more Adventure Friends? At Edelia?? Already hyped!




AstralCodex -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/5/2022 4:12:42)

I really liked the design of both of the enemies this week. Tomix is a pre-nerf BSW, with a loopable -30 Boost, a 4/7 MPM shield, and a massive Sync attack every 7 turns. Meanwhile, Drakonnon's superheat mechanic is very interesting (you need to hit him 10x with water or ice to break his heat, which greatly nerfs his damage until he gets it back), and I think his looping -60 fire on the player is a good solution to fire res stack. I just find Drakonnan very interesting while also being decently challenging, albeit perhaps a bit easy to cheese with Chompers the Piranha.

I do suspect that Tomix is quite a bit overtuned - once enraged, his 4/7 255 MPM, his 10-crit damage immunity every 7 turns, and absurd filler damage, combined with his execute (yes, I know you're supposed to shield his nuke) mean that he walls most of the non-DC non-SO classes pretty hard.

That being said, usual caveats apply: it's very possible we'll figure out more tricks and Tomix will be pretty easy by tomorrow!




Dratomos -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/5/2022 6:52:10)

Oh what a treat this was. For me, Inn is at best when we are facing enemies (and sometimes friends) from older DF storylines, but with updated look and cool mechanics. And neither of these disappointed. Although I was surprised how well CDE did here.

I really liked Drakonnan's design. Instead of asking the player to stack fire resistance, it gives you a way to deal with Drakonnan's high damage by cooling him and it's very good addition to Inn's mechanics.

As for Tomix? He was really good otherwise, from his looks to his design, but his rotation has one problem.

spoiler:

It's really his first nuke on Pandora rotation. Very few classes can evade 4 attacks on a row and in Tomix's pandora rotation, it's pretty much a must. You can't tank the first always critting attack but you have to shield yourself from the two second ones. Now, it's not a problem for most of the SO classes, but for regular players who don't have them, Tomix is a very challenging foe.




ArcticRaider -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/5/2022 17:09:38)

Managed to beat Drakonnan with Pyromancer.




ergotth -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/6/2022 23:35:44)

@ArticRaider
oh the irony in that xD




Laeon val Observis -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/7/2022 0:09:46)

Well, looks like this is a repeat scenario for me akin to BWM. Able to off the solos with just my gear and techniques I'm comfy at, but getting thrashed about by the duo (Tomix severely sets the tone of the fight with all that long shielding and short autocrits). At least the helm looks swag (it was a bonus for me anyways if I get the maxed out helm, anyway, despite it offering nice offensive stat bonuses).

Now that I got a decent feel and taste of the action, just got a flash of curiosity. What if MSW's synchro function be tweaked in some homage to Inn Tomix's? We should've already bonded long enough with Aegis to the point that we shouldn't resort to being an amateur of an artificer relying on mere brute force, and having an instantaneous synchro (with a bit of the meditative charge-up still) to empower abilities can further help differentiate BSW and MSW apart from a burst offenser and a patient assassin.




TFS -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/7/2022 20:42:50)

I heard this challenge was pretty tough, but (as usual, for every challenge that doesn't softban Archivist), using Archivist made it a complete joke - a surprise, I know, using the most braindead and overpowered option available made a video game less challenging. Music was really cool though, and I really loved finally getting a proper fight against Drakonnan.

In sharp contrast to the experience I had with Archivist, I really wonder if this was actually intended to be beatable without DC/Calendar classes (namely, Archivist/Epoch/Chaosweaver/Pyromancer). While I understand that occasionally challenges have to be balanced around these much stronger classes, in order to keep people who bought them from getting bored, the way Tomix's Phase 2 works isn't really conductive to that either.
The brunt of this monster's difficulty comes from how difficult it is to damage in Phase 2, which requires you to have +200 Bonus, high hitcount, and autocrit or high +Crit. This is obviously something that all of the aforementioned most powerful classes in the game just do automatically while attacking, which means they aren't impeded at all by the mechanic. Normal DA classes, however, just simply get stat checked by this - you can't increase your hitcount by just playing better, you can't increase your Bonus (to the required amount) by just playing better, and you can't autocrit or score more crits without just rerolling the fight. The way that this plays results in either just getting stat checked by Phase 2 and being unable to damage him, or not being affected by the mechanic at all because you were using the most powerful (mtx) classes and just doing that anyway.
From what I've been told, the only way people have cleared this challenge (so far) without using the DC/calendar classes is by just bursting before Tomix's barrier to skip the phase entirely, because it's not actually possible for normal DA classes to actually deal with the mechanic - which makes it seem like this isn't actually intended to be possible for these classes.
My first reaction to clearing this fight was joking that it felt like it had only been balanced against Archivist/Epoch - before being informed that that was actually exactly what had happened. So if nothing else that was pretty funny.

Big numbers like +150 Bonus also contribute to this dichotomy quite a bit, as many of the non-mtx classes haven't been touched since before Bonus rolled out of 150 and therefore have weaker blinds/shields, but this isn't the crux of the fight nor is it unique to Tomix.

Drakonnan, on the other hand, I enjoyed quite a lot. I remember the night Drakonnan was first released - and even as a dumb kid with base Mage I was disappointed by how easily he went down. After so much build-up to the climax of what's undoubtedly the best storyline in the first half of the game, the final confrontation with Drakonnan was undoubtedly a let-down. So, ever since the challenges first started, I've been hoping for a Drakonnan fight every Inn release - and now that it's finally here, it doesn't disappoint.
The mechanics are spot-on; Drakonnan lowering his defenses and raising his damage as he gets angrier and more desperate is very fitting for the character. While I'm not normally a fan of having to take arbitrary actions that aren't telegraphed, this definitely isn't the case for having to hit him with Ice - as soon as I saw him I knew I would have to hit him with Ice in order to accomplish something, and was instantly rewarded with having my expectations met. Already knowing the story gives you the edge here, which is something I really like about these proper rematches against story bosses - I think the last time we've seen this was Ice Dragons last year. Unlike Tomix, pet attacks also count towards his Ice hit counter, so you're allowed to insert a bit of variability into the fight rather than being railroaded into only one strategy.
The only thing I'm not a fan of here is use of the new Akriloth design in the background, when DF's original Akriloth is, like, the most iconic design in the whole game. Free Him :(

So, yeah, mixed thoughts on this release, like most of the recent inn releases. I also hope I haven't come off as too negative, I feel like most things are just good by default and therefore don't have much to say about them - unless they're particularly exciting like Drakonnan.




Baron Dante -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/8/2022 12:41:19)

I agree on most of TFS has to say, but I'd like to add to that, I suppose.

As someone who tends to focus on slower, grindier playstyles, it's not just that it's hard for classes to deal with the mechanics of the fight. While still being a DC/Calendar class, AExo is considered to usually be fairly average, so I'll use it here to demonstrate:

It technically has the tools to do the fight. The issue it runs into, is that in addition to Tomix being behind massive defensive shield, he also deals massive numbers in retaliation. Adding on Drakonnan to the mix, with the ability to mitigate some of the defensive prowess of AExo, makes it a tall wall for it to overcome.

The two paths to beating Tomix is to either burst him down to skip his main mechanic, or to have the ability to overcome his defenses, but in either case, he's usually the one you would beat first, maybe doing something to keep Drakonnan in check while at it. If Tomix's damage was toned down, it would open the option of beating Drakonnan first, as the main damage dealer. This wouldn't really FIX the Bonus requirement, but it would give a bit more leeway to the lesser classes that do have the requirements filled out.

So ideally, the Bonus requirements should be looked at.
Although as noted by TFS, this is not exactly exclusive to this fight, and may be more symptomatic of classes that have not been updated since the nerf to Bonus was made. this could be fixed by either snipping the defense values of enemies AND bonus values of updated classes down to size, or, while waiting for more proper updates to old classes, give them something of a polish by updating their Bonus values to the new standards (Possibly the defensive skills as well, since a lot of these points apply to those as well, but that's not exactly an issue here specifically)

Failing that, toning down the damage for Tomix.
This might require testing to be done, but the theory is that it would open up options to deal with the fight that don't involve massive burst and maybe not even a Bonus check. You would take down Drakonnan first, and then you could hopefully be able to grind Tomix down over time.
This would still keep the current strategies largely as the better options should you have access to them, given faster clears, but would ideally create enough of a crack to fit other options in.




Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/8/2022 12:53:26)

I appreciate all the feedback!

Tomix's numbers were definitely a concern- my design going into the fight was to try to give the player the "fun" of fighting a Soulweaver, and tried to balance it so it was more fun than frustrating, but I think it missed the mark.

While I think an element of RNG would be fine for such things- being able to consistently guarantee hits is not something that I feel is necessary- from what I've seen it's a bit much in this case.

I'm currently floating changing the shields from Avoidance to BPD. Such a change would emphasize the fight's crit weakness, while still rewarding high Bonus play. I also need to check one of the mechanics, since the size of the crit shield should be controllable by the player to an extent.

And I'm glad to hear that Drakonnan was fun!




AstralCodex -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/8/2022 13:42:47)

Going from Avoidance to BPD would be a pretty welcome change, though I think the problem is really Tomix's massive filler damage - for example, his -boost attack after enrage is as big as his nuke attacks, and it comes with 200 Crit and 100 Bonus to boot. This means that most classes are forced onto the backfoot (even premium classes) and can't beat him except by killing him as fast as possible.

That being said, I do think his crit shield is currently controllable by the player - doesn't it gain 2 hits for every (additional) status on him?




Laeon val Observis -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/8/2022 16:12:52)

Definitely gonna welcome the MPM>BDP change if it gets implemented. This will surely reduce the narrow options currently to off the duo w/o resorting to DC/SO classes, which are currently held by WDL, Techno, and DK, and 2/3 of them have mechanics that limit gearswaps. Gladly, pets don't set those punishments off as Chompers and Necsnowmancer (slightly riskier as he might heal when you need to quench Drak) are integral to low hitcount plays. Regarding the concern about Tom's dmg, perhaps a combination of lowered dmg and tweaked percentages could give some freedom to make sure the nukes retain some degree of their intimidation factor and the fillers less oppressing (sniping is not really a problem on its own unless it approaches Gambit unreasonabilities). Still getting those flashbacks that my best run was WDL+food that I got delayed by around 3 turns (NOT in the mood for SF scythe or InD), only to be roasted by Drak exactly after pissing him off.




UndeadMaster -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/9/2022 15:11:23)

Very interesting !




Surib -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/11/2022 1:59:01)

"Unfortunate" doesn't even begin to describe this release, this game rewards paid classes and nothing else, I am beyond convinced at this point. After getting completely tooled by own limitation as a free class by having Fully Synchronized Tomix raising his offensive stats to unbearable numbers on me starting at turn 7, dying to him in 11 turns for over 30 times now somehow felt even worse than I had thought possible. My preparation was superior, my play was superior, and I lost, so I don't see a reason to continue engaging in an Inn challenge where what is within my control is overwhelmingly outweighed by what is not.

I am done with Inn challenges and with the game in general, and you won't get a fond farewell. This community is infected to its roots with a degenerative disease that grows stronger over time but stops short of killing its host. Inn challenges used to have a competitive spirit at their heart, this has been transplanted and replaced with an artificial organ that feeds on gross RNG and MTX from insecure little yes-men that heckle by the Falcon's Nest server and meme on each other to shreds over scraps of attention. The environment we fostered has trapped us all like this in a vicious cycle, and escaping it requires acceptance of the harshest reality we all scramble to explain away, that none of the countless straining efforts we put ourselves into will ever amount to one single shining glimmer of significance. I would make this the end, but my Renegade Platinum Hardcore Nuzlocke is still ongoing, and I would never leave so many great friends out to dry, so I'll suffer through a few more weeks in the server for them.

One last thing before I leave you all to react with disdain, "skill issue", "simply don't get owned", "just win the coinflips", and self-righteous fervor, before you do everything in your power to minimize my words and thoughts, screenshot them up and shove them to some #deep-lore channel in the Cursed Section channel category, and hope they linger on forever as a stain on my finite time ground to dust. From this moment on, nothing you say matters to me. The foulest insults you hurl with intent to "own" me will calmly settle at the earth before my feet, and the venom you spit will bring all the pain of a warm summer breeze. You are less than anything you can conceive, while I carry on, brimming with joy distilled from detachment.

Initial edit. Do not use sexually explicit language in your posts. ~Master Samak




Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/12/2022 17:10:24)

Although I've never been much of a challenge player, I love the implied impact some of these enemies leave on the story. Seeing Drakonnan being so intensely powerful in comparison to his original version makes him seem like more of a threat to me (from a story perspective). It really scratches an itch in my brain for some reason.
@Surib: That's a shame. Farewell!




OpprobriousPinecones -> RE: =DF= February 4th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Retribution and Reclamation (2/12/2022 21:53:21)

(FYI that's an edited copypasta based off a guy who quit in competitive Pokemon)




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