RE: On Dexterity

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Biokirkby -> RE: On Dexterity (4/10/2022 7:03:31)
I will say that one of the bosses final Talon Mastercraft quest had an auto-hitting special move (Either that or a very high BTH lean). This is something of a compromise between auto-hitting bosses and bosses that can be made to always miss (although I'm not making a statement on dodge build's actual power)

Sapphire -> RE: On Dexterity (4/10/2022 8:43:56)
Vel sent me and made a chart, and I made my own based on those values where not only is a 20 turn Melee unit with a pet/guest and booster pet/guest quantified, but END and blocking and initiative are given a Melee value. Themes--> Dexterity is still king, and by A LOT. I have it all grouped by build types, just changing out the mainstat. In every case, the DEX version is way way way way superior. It's due to blocking. There's still no reason to not train it. This reinforces that either #1 Ranged Damage needs to come down, or #2 blocking needs removed as a universal boost. I am compiling the same info with the decoupling assumptions, to compare and see how or if there's some glaring problems with it. I will already note, that while lowering damage for Ranged and keeping blocking sounds like a solution, it really isn't I predict. When looking at hybrids of various types, reducing Ranged damage means that the STRENGTH Hybrid simply uses a different weapon type to keep damage, but they don't lose the Melee value 8.2 in blocking. The INT/DEX hybrid increases weapon damage using Ranged if Ranged damage is left alone, and also keeps the 8.2 Melee value of blocking. So DEX variants of hybrids, will always be the superior build. Keeping Dex as universal blocking IMO will prove to be problematic. But I need to make the chart to prove otherwise, still. END is OP, yet was given new values. I think top end HP needs to come down a bit. Will address that later. But Offense doesn't even come close to telling the entire story. In fact, Dexterity + END builds win in total Melee Unit Power. This is why I think increasing LUck's BTH value and reducing mainstat's value to compensate will help balance out how strong END is. But I also need to make that chart, too, to see. When this is done, I'll see about posting these.

Ward_Point -> RE: On Dexterity (4/10/2022 9:52:40)
Vel, please publish your numbers and any spreadsheet you're using. It would be good if additional community members could verify them. The issue with END, is that it is a 'Wasted' stat if you don't need the additional HP. If you had 250 END and fought two mooks and lost 49% of your HP, odds are that a build with those 250 Points invested elsewhere would also have survived that fight, and that 250 points were 'actively used' in the fight. By giving END status Resist and HP Healing, END becomes 'Useful' although the additional HP isn't necessarily 'Used'. Mathematically, where your HP pool is concerned, END does seem OP because there is no other stat that literally doubles a character's power. Balance on paper is not balance in actuality. The assumption that END is overpowered for most of the game is fallacious, please see the majority situation as above. You are taking, for the most part, challenging Boss fights that would be more easily beaten with additional HP, and stating that it is the majority of the game. This is not the case. Furthermore, reducing the defensive aspects of DEX and LUK down to Melee units isn't so straightforward. Firstly, you NEED BOTH 250 DEX and LUK before you attain a 15% Block rate at Level 150. Basically, any build that has only invested in 250 LUK cannot Block. Any 250 DEX build without LUK can only block 2.5% of attacks. This is due to the additive nature of accuracy in the game. Frankly, a majority of the community on Discord would prefer a solution where Blocking is somehow tied to the 3 Mainstats and capped at 25. There are a number of solutions 1) (STR + DEX + INT) / 10, capped at 25. 2) [DEX * (3 / 100)] + [(STR + DEX + INT) * (2 / 25)] + [LUCK * (1 / 25)] (STR + DEX + INT) cap is 250, DEX taking an appropriate penalty. Suggestion 1 is an inelegant one, but would maintain assumptions and viability of most builds. If the suggested change is implemented, the issue would then become one of Build Identity. What differentiates a DEX build from a STR build? Essentially nothing. Suggestion 2 gives a DEX build double the Block rate (15%) compared to the 'Pure' Mage or Warrior (7.5%). This lends itself to better identity, but I'm personally not a big fan of taking a penalty for something this unreliable.

Sapphire -> RE: On Dexterity (4/10/2022 10:48:24)
Here's what Vel provided me. His has a couple of extra columns which I disregarded on my spreadsheet . I only included damage w/ pets/guests and damage w/ boosters on my own chart. I dolled mine up and organized it by build types. His has other categories. The following is a copy/paste of what he sent me, with the Imgur link. I have 4 values for total damage over 20 turns (First 4 columns): 1. Without guests assumed (P) 2. Without guests assumed, but using booster pets (BP) 3. With regular pets and guests assumed (PG) 4. With booster pets and guests assumed (BPG) For the defensive values over 20 turns (Next 5 columns): 1. END gives 8.32 melee units worth of HP, and 1 melee unit worth of status resistance 2. DEX gives 8.24 melee units worth of blocking 3. LUK gives 4.12 melee units worth of blocking 4. I values initiative at 100% melee, so STR, DEX, INT gives 0.2 each, while LUK gives 0.4 The last 4 columns is the sum of both offensive and defensive contributions. Now this table is sorted from largest to smallest, based on total melee value using regular pets and guests: Vel's spreadsheet https://imgur.com/a/hWxgbdi <---This hasn't removed DEXT from Pets/Guests Mine Using Vel's Data https://imgur.com/PESH9eh ^ I whole-heartedly agree about what you said on END. It's not needed, and the things given to it does make it more worthwhile to use. However, a chart with total Melee value in power at the very least provides some context for total value of your stats, and helps to alleviate this notion of only looking at offensive capability only that so many seem to look at. I think it will help simply serve as a reminder. Vel's calculations assume Dex is also assisting BTH for Pets and Guests, so those numbers, especially for Ranger beast variants might be skewed simply from the standpoint that since charisma will be evaluated last, and wasn't touched yet, Vel's calcs are as of today. I asked to redo the Beast Calcs assuming Dext will be removed as I remember somewhere over the past ~month someone on staff alluded to it not making sense to keep DEX there if Dex was removed from the rest. I think that updating based on that is fair. Last edit lol (maybe) -> What if you could tie universal blocking to END. It provides HP's and blocking. You'd reduce HP's by some Melee value and add universal blocking by the same Melee value to balance it. This makes END the defensive stat and removes DEX from universal blocking, but you could add-in a small blocking qualifier based on DEX such that those who train DEX but NOT End get some blocking help, but END is the main driver of it? OR WHAT ABOUT THIS: In order to give "Rangers" an identity, blocking needs to be tied to it's THREE stats. That way, only THEY can achieve max blocking. This also means that nearly everyone gets SOME blocking. WARD, you also mentioned because of the additive chance to hit formula, some builds never can block. While this might be the case, most builds now have some. So here's the proposal....or at least a starting point to analyze for staff: So the formula for total blocking will involve END and DEX and LUCK where END is worth 15 and DEX is worth 10 (or vice versa), and luck is still worth 12.5. You reduce End's HP's down an appropriate amount to pay for the blocking. WARD, you mentioned that END's value is misleading because all those HP's aren't needed? So reduce top end HP's to pay for the blocking add-on. Then the DEX/END/LUK build is your "Ranger Build" who is the only build in the game with max blocking. Because this is a defensive leaning playstyle and to alleviate the DEX/INT Hybrid from profiting off Ranged weapons as much, you then reduce Ranged damage down slightly to sit between Warrior and Mage (weapons). Tada!

Veleqwii_Fox -> RE: On Dexterity (4/10/2022 12:03:11)
Ok here goes. Let's start with some legend. The table format I used has eight columns: [1] BUILD - the three stats that make up the build [2] OFF - the total offensive power in melee units assuming the use of regular pets and guests (I removed boosters comparison to simplify the discussion) [3] END1 - the equivalent melee units of the HP given by END, at 250 END this is around 2.9k HP so 8.3 melee units [4] END2 - the equivalent melee units of the status potence given by END, at 250 END this is 5 so 5% melee x 20 turns = 1 melee unit. For my proposal of adding blocking to END, I included the equivalent melee units here (see below). [5] DEX/BLK - the equivalent melee units given by DEX or by other mainstats (if taking into account Sapphire's suggestion of blocking decentralization). This is currently 25 MRM so ~41% melee x 20 turns = 8.2 melee units. [6] LUK - the equivalent melee units blocking given by LUK, half of DEX so 4.1 melee units [7] INIT - initiative: I assumed to be 1 melee unit over 20 turns. 20% contribution from STR, DEX and INT, 40% contribution from LUK. [8] TOTAL - total build power, sum of the offensive (column 2) and all defensive (columns 3-7) components I also color coded the table (just because I want to lol) Red - Pure STR Yellow - Pure DEX Blue - Pure INT Orange - STR/DEX hybrid Green - INT/DEX hybrid Purple - STR/INT hybrid So aside from the build comparison table, I also made tables for recommended changes. Here are two proposals I've taken into account: Mine: So I previously suggested to put some of the blocking in END. Now I know it may not seem thematic to have MRM given by END, since "dodge" is more closely related to DEX. I was thinking though that "block" could still be related to "enduring" the hits, thus the connection with END. I, however, am still not completely convinced with this idea. Just putting it out as a possible alternative. I know we could still find a better compromise. Sapphire's: He suggested to decentralize blocking to the three main stats. Melee for STR, ranged for DEX, and magic for INT (at least this is how I understood it). So each main stat gets one-third contribution. Pure builds only get 2.7 melee units worth of blocking, hybrids get 5.5, while the tribrid gets the full 8.2. Now here are the tables for your reference, sorted in terms of OFFENSIVE power and TOTAL power [A] How it is at the moment after the stat revamp: Offensive \| Total So as I've said, CHA/LUK builds are on top in terms of offensive power because of pets, guests and LS. However it can be seen that DEX is disproportionately more powerful offensively because of its BtH contribution to pets and guests. Comparing the 3 CHA/LUK builds, DEX sits on top at 41.3 while STR and INT are at 37.6 and 37.1 respectively. That's about 20% melee advantage every turn. In terms of total power, all builds with DEX dominate. The DEX/CHA/LUK build has 12 melee units advantage (or 60% melee every turn) over the STR/CHA/LUK build. [B] Unlinking of pet and guest BtH solely to DEX: Offensive \| Total Now if we link pet and guest BtH into the three main stats instead, we can see that the power difference is eliminated. Pure STR builds are ahead at 41.8 thanks to the bonus damage. DEX and INT are tied at 41.3, not too far behind. Now we can't make pet and guest BtH solely rely on CHA because that would make CHA OP. If we compare the total power of say STR/INT/CHA vs STR/INT/LUK vs STR/INT/END, we can see that they are close enough 39.1 vs 38.9 vs 37.9. We area already at the sweet spot of equivalence. In terms of total power, this adjustment closes the gap between STR/CHA/LUK and DEX/CHA/LUK to 8 melee units. Below are the proposals to remove this gap, while keeping as much of the mechanics as intact as possible. [C] Putting blocking into END: Offensive \| Total So here's my suggestion of putting half the blocking from DEX to END. This makes DEX = END = LUK equal in terms of blocking bonus. END builds definitely became more dominant (END/CHA/LUK being on top - but mainly because I assumed this build to use CHA weapons, which is a separate balance issue). CHA/END builds became more powerful than CHA/LUK builds in terms of total power. Now I don't really think this is a problem, because as Ward said, END could be considered a 'wasted' stat if you don't need the additional HP. Moreover, in terms of offensive power, END builds are down by as much as 5 melee units (25% melee damage per turn) compared to LUK builds, and 10 melee units (50% melee damage per turn) compared to CHA builds. Anyway, what I want to emphasize here is that by effectively halving the DEX boost to blocking, the gap between DEX and STR or INT builds was reduced to 4.1 (20% melee per turn) in terms of total power. Now for me, this is an "okay-ish" compromise to keeping blocking to DEX for thematic purposes. Now is this 20% melee worth of blocking OP to warrant reduction of ranged damage? I don't really think so. Still if you do, maybe you could look into Sapphire's suggestion below. [D] Putting blocking into the mainstats: Offensive \| Total Not much difference here really in terms of offensive power. However, this perfectly balances out the builds in terms of overall power. Block meta users would be severely hurt by this, since hybridization would result in a big loss in total power (pure builds are in the 46-49 range while hybrids are only on the 40-44 range). Moreover, you'd never be able to get the full blocking bonus unless you go for tribrid, which is arguably the weakest build (aside from END/CHA/LUK w/o CHA weapons). It's also an okay compromise. It could work thematically as well, since you need strength to "parry" melee hits, dexterity to "evade" ranged ones, and intellect to "counter" magic spells directed at you. Nerfing the block meta might also be a good thing? I don't really know. Now if you want the spreadsheet, I could send it through PM. It's very messy and I wouldn't really be able to explain it to you so I don't recommend you ask for it. I'm still a bit tired after all this so I might not be able to entertain any more calculations/adjustments for the mean time. So yeah, I hope I was able to help.

Sapphire -> RE: On Dexterity (4/10/2022 12:30:59)
You may have not seen my last post, as I edited the darn thing 15 times. But I, too, came to the realization that END needs to have blocking if my original proposal is to be unpopular, and therefore, 3 stats have to play blocking roles. I'm on board with this,if the community is honestly against my original proposal, which I do think is a better balance. But because the blocking meta is so prevalent, and I believe to be OP with specific setups, I believe that's why the community wishes for it to remain. And this is partially why if the End-based suggestion Vel and I have now proposed, only 1 build can max blocking. The Ranger. My original proposal, nobody can max blocking. I differed in his assumption of my proposal. He got it wrong. I wanted mainstat + luck help each stat's blocking, not solely on mainstat. I, however, differ in Vel's opinion with Ranged damage in that I think it needs to come down some. I do not believe a build should have all the advantages of defense and be in the same ball park offensively. In addition, while the detachment of blocking to DEXT and putting it all on each respective mainstat is really balanced, I admit I don't know that really creates a great Ranger niche. That's partially why I'd be on board with the END-based solution, and it might make the community happier than my original proposal. And I get that matters, too. And IMO, like Vel stated, I don't feel as though it's out of bounds to add END and have a triangular approach to blocking. Just Remove HP's from End's top side in Melee% to pay for the same Melee% gained in blocking. I would advocate for, however instead of these 3 being equal, I would be inclined to go with 15 for DEX, 10 for END, and 12.5 for LUCK OR 10 for DEX, 15 for END, and 12.5 for LUCK. The appropriate Melee% (whatever DEXT gets) is then reduced from Ranged Weapons attack damage to even this out. Ranged damage would sit between a magic attack and a melee attack someplace, and not make the INT/DEX/LUCK hybrid profit as much off Ranged weapons. quote: So here's my suggestion of putting half the blocking from DEX to END. This makes DEX = END = LUK equal in terms of blocking bonus. END builds definitely became more dominant (END/CHA/LUK being on top - but mainly because I assumed this build to use CHA weapons, which is a separate balance issue). CHA/END builds became more powerful than CHA/LUK builds in terms of total power. Now I don't really think this is a problem, because as Ward said, END could be considered a 'wasted' stat if you don't need the additional HP. Moreover, in terms of offensive power, END builds are down by as much as 5 melee units (25% melee damage per turn) compared to LUK builds, and 10 melee units (50% melee damage per turn) compared to CHA builds. Anyway, what I want to emphasize here is that by effectively halving the DEX boost to blocking, the gap between DEX and STR or INT builds was reduced to 4.1 (20% melee per turn) in terms of total power. Now for me, this is an "okay-ish" compromise to keeping blocking to DEX for thematic purposes. Now is this 20% melee worth of blocking OP to warrant reduction of ranged damage? I don't really think so. Still if you do, maybe you could look into Sapphire's suggestion below. Or don't look at my proposal and reduce Ranged damage down. 20%?? IDK, maybe. Maybe compromise and meet in the middle? I think this 4.1 Melee on the damage side needs to come down, and you could find yourself removing my original proposal from the debate altogether, which is cool with me. Thoughts everyone?

ruleandrew -> RE: On Dexterity (4/11/2022 2:06:37)
- Less fair build option - One possible plan for pet and guest bonus to hit: [CHA * (3 / 40)] + [(STR + DEX + INT) * (3 / 40)] + [LUCK * (1 / 40)] One suggested block rate: [DEX * (3 / 100)] + [(STR + DEX + INT) * (2 / 25)] + [LUCK * (1 / 25)] (STR + DEX + INT) cap is 250. --- - More fair build option - One possible plan for pet and guest bonus to hit: [CHA * (3 / 40)] + [(STR + DEX + INT + LUCK) * (3 / 40)] + [LUCK * (1 / 40)] One suggested block rate: [DEX * (3 / 100)] + [END * (2 / 25)] + [LUCK * (1 / 25)] (STR + DEX + INT + LUCK) cap is 250. --- I am leaning towards more fair build option.

Branl -> RE: On Dexterity (4/11/2022 8:51:46)
I suppose the issue here is that there doesn't appear to be a way to keep block in line with the formula and have it be a competitive FO stat. Halfing blocking from Dex means you can't even dodge off of mainstat, which is a severe issue since stats aren't evaluated based on their item synergies, else End would have to be signifigantly weaker to keep backlash/doomlight in mind. Even counting item synergies, the options for Fo block are still very much in it's infantcy, it'd be very much balancing based on theoretical future synergies on top of the prior issue. And while moving block away from Dex would be ideal and we've heard a lot of good ideas on how yo do that, there's still not really a good idea that would be balanced and gives Dex their own identity. The design space between a mainstat that spends 25% of it's melee valuation to do anything with, and another mainstat that has to be numerically stronger because of that is very limited.

Sapphire -> RE: On Dexterity (4/11/2022 10:08:12)
The END-based triangular approach helps create the niche, though. It literally makes it such that the DEX/END/LUCK build is the only build with full blocking, and that happens to be the Ranger. Couple that with stat damage coming solely from DEX and you've built the base Ranger. It's simply different than the Warrior due to blocking assistance. To counter END's newfound blocking capabilities, you take END"S blocking value in Melee power and simply change the HP formula and reduce top side HP's by the same Melee power. If END is 12.5 like Vel suggested, that's 4.1 Melee. 348HP is 1 Melee, so 3414.1=1426 less HP's for 250 END, making it 4427. I, personally, advocate for 15 from DEX (so that Hybrids who train DEX retain more "Ranger" side), then 10 from END, and 12.5 from Luck. 10 END would be 3.28 Melee. 3.28348=1141. So 250 END would give 4712 HP. WARD said there's "wasted" value in END. This reduces the waste, too. In addition, this change to END's HP formula just might bring backlash back down to Earth. But Ranged damage IMO cannot remain as-is. If a player were to go with DEX/INT/LUK, they retain max BTH, significantly good blocking, and Ranged damage (due to no BTH loss) would exceed models. Training INT instead of END means higher offense and lower defense, I get it. Does Ranged need to be brought down to magic weapons? Probably not. Perhaps it should sit between magic and melee? Staff seems to think valueing blocking and HP's in Melee isn't realistic, although it doesn't make sense to me. The whole entire rest of the game does, but that's fine. Maybe Ranged weapons, through stats, get lowered to around 88%? It's a halfway marker. In addition, I believe Rangers will be the primary recipients of Initiative armors, etc. I advocate for all 100 proc bows to receive this, personally. Nonetheless, this Initiative will help, at least a touch, help alleviate some lost damage. Highest blocking, initiative, and perhaps maybe Ranged weapons could get a smaller penalty to status inflictions....could result in a very nice carved out build? I think the players who are so clinging onto the blocking meta need to understand, if they don't already and that's why the clingyness, that blocking while has low block rates if you don't push for blocking effects, due to it's linear nature it goes from very weak to the strongest playstyle in AQ QUICK. If you have a 15% block rate, if you give yourself a 25 MRM buff and then inflict a 25 blind, your blockrate just sky-rocketed LINEARLY to 15+25+25=65%. That's MASSIVE. The triangular approach also means nearly every build gets some blocking. The only build that wouldn't are STR/INT/CHA builds, a very substandard sub-optimal build. So 99% of the game can play blocking if they want to, and not just sectioned off simply because you chose 1 stat out of 6. So let's tie blocking to 3 stats, either the universal DEX/END/LUK approach or the compartmentalized Mainstat approach. I do think the END based one carves out a better ranger niche, and it feels like the community wants universal blocking. The END approach is an outstanding compromise IMO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Based on changing pet/guest BTh to be like charisma, and moving blocking to be split 3 ways evenly 12.5 each for DEX/END/LUK, here's the end result for Melee Power. (Offense/Defense/initiative) Also, if you take 4.1 Melee in HP's from END and use it to pay for the addition of 4.1 Melee blocking The offensive numbers is using Vel's sheet, I just kept END's original value of 9.3 (based on added HP's, blocking, and the heal add-on) PURE BUILDS Pure Warrior (str/end/luk) 43.9 Pure Mage (int/end/luk) 44.4 Pure Ranger (dex/end/luk) 48.1 <-------------Ranged needs ~ 4 Melee Reduction over 20 Turns LUCKY HYBRIDS Lucky Warrior-Mage (str/int/luk) 38.9 Lucky Ranger-Mage (dex/int/luk) 42.6 <------------Ranged needs ~ 4 Melee Reduction over 20 turns Lucky Warrior-Ranger (str/dex/luk) 39.4 TANK HYBRIDS Tank Warrior-Mage (str/int/end) 37.9 Tank Ranger-Mage (dex/int/end) 41.7 <------------ Ranged Needs ~ 4 Melee Reduction over 20 turns Tank Warrior-Ranger (str/dex/end) 38.7 TRIBRID (Scholar) Build- (str/dex/int) 33 LUCKY HYBRID BEASTMASTERS Beast Warrior (str/char/luk) 46.5 Beast Mage (int/char/luk) 46 Beast Ranger (dex/char/luk) 50.1 <------------ Ranged needs ~4 Melee Reduction over 20 turns TANK BEASTMASTERS Tank Beast Warrior (str/char/end) 44.9 Tank Beast Mage (int/char/end) 44.4 Tank Beast Ranger (dex/char/end) 48.6 <------------- Ranged needs ~ 4 Melee Reduction over 20 turns NON-LUCK BEAST HYBRIDS Beast Warrior-Mage (str/int/char) 39.1 Beast Ranger-Mage (dex/int/char) 42.8 <------------- Ranged needs ~ 4 Melee Reduction over 20 turns Beast Warrior-Ranger (str/dex/char) 39.9 PURE BEASTMASTER Build- (cha/end/luk) 46.4 Bringing Ranged total weapon damage down to .80 from 1.0 reduces 4 Melee points over 20 turns for most of these scenarios, evening it all out.

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