Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (Full Version)

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RobynJoanne -> Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/9/2022 10:35:50)

So, this came up recently while I was brainstorming some ideas for a personal challenge I had, but there are some mechanics I feel are underrepresented that I would love to see more items come with.

1) Heal Resist
There are only a handful of heal resist items in the game, and I would love to see more. At the same time, I really hope that heal resist can be standardized throughout and be mathematically balanced. Heal resist is one of the oldest effects in the game (Teacup of Life, which is to my knowledge the first item with this effect, came out in 2009), yet it feels like it's one of the rares effects in the game despite having massive utility. Granted, I'm quite biased as an admitted healing afficionado. If making more items would be too hard, I would like to ask that, at the very least, Moglin Sword could return.

2) Chi Shields
One interesting thing I've noticed is that Chi Shields are not common. That seems strange since SP is the universal resource. One would think that Chi Shields should be readily available for every build. Alas, the main sources are a Tome (limited to mages) and a pet (extremely overpowered due to being old and limited in application due to decompression besides being limited to beastmasters). With the recent separation of Barriers, Mana Shields, and Chi Shields, now seems like the perfect time to reintroduce Chi Shields as a normal game mechanic.

3) Non-roll-based weapon effects
And now for something completely different, I'd like to bring up an idea for items rather than a status condition like the previous two. With the proliferation of status potency and Boss Boost, status rolls are in a bit of a strange position. Sometimes, they can heavily favor the player, and other times, they heavily favor the monster. I would like to see items like Havarti Blade and El Muchacho's Shield Form as a response to all this. Havarti's effect is a flat 50% chance rather than a roll like most other effects. I really like it as an alternative for when one's stats and/or equipment loadout aren't ideal for status rolls. El Muchacho's Shield Form provides a benefit if one attacks with it. I like how reliable it is. I would like to see more examples of items like both. I specifically mentioned weapons because weapons have traditionally been lackluster in terms of passive effects not related to damage, and I would like to see that changed.

I wanted to open this up to the wider community. What other niche effects would people like to see more support of? I hope we can bring up some effects that are not on the devs' radar.



Yozai -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/9/2022 14:29:34)

9999 Turns Realm Champions... Champion of Sunscale with Light Burn (void on undead) plz [:)]



battlesiege15 -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/9/2022 15:52:04)

Compression Guest weapons. We have weapons that have spells, skills, and armors. However, we only have 3 weapons that have guests tied to them (Super Psycho Blade, Solar Flair Staff, and I feel like 1 other...?)

And how about more Beastmaster themed armors? Bard of War would be great but with the new era of spellcaster armors, why not give the beastmaster armors +X damage or BTH instead of just Celerity?



Red Blood -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/9/2022 17:18:03)

How about more items akin to the Shearhide item/form? I always found that to be an interesting item for the stat conversion it did letting you make a warrior out of a mage. Granted I fully understand it's likely a pain to do but it was one of those items that really stuck with me for ages due to it being one of a kind.



RobynJoanne -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/9/2022 20:06:58)

@Yozai
I also endorse the idea of more permanent battle effects, especially now that the devs have truly permanent effects that have no duration instead of the previous 9999-turn pseudo-permanent effects. We have gotten two relatively recently in Absolute Darkness and Nature's Reclamation, so I would support just the idea in general even outside of Champion sets, though I do see how this encroaches on their raison d'etre.

@battlesiege
Nightbane Clawclub/Clawstaff is another one, and Zardwarts Wand is another. You are right that this kind of thing is rare. Solar Flair Staff also takes a -5% penalty on its damage and guest due to compressing too much, so the options we do have aren't always ideal either.

I would like to see the return of beastmaster lean. I am sure it would be more popular than the original iteration of Bard of War. In fact, I'd love to see more lean ideas. Lv 1000 has some ideas in his suggestions for no-drop armor changes, and I am sure the devs could have some other ideas.

However, I also think we need to wait until we see how the stat revamp deals with Cha and the guest problem before we get more of these items. It would not make sense to release items the devs would eventually have to rebalance.

@Red Blood
Outside of balance considerations, Shearhide is fun and interesting. Within those constraints, Shearhide is an absolute nightmare. How do we balance letting people change their builds during battle? Well, the answer is to give the item so many penalties that you end up not using it. The exact mechanic of this is also a mess. I know Shearhide has been changed 4+ times since its release so many years ago because its effect is just rife with abuse. Even now, it lets mages use the DL Shields without a massive penalty. Items like Shearhide would still be a fun idea for flavor, but I think the idea would just create a massive headache for the devs down the line.



PD -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/9/2022 20:44:50)

I think I had a bunch of these in my item wishlist. But I'll post again:

1. Hyperalphean Skjoldr Autoblock: Really loved this mechanic. The rest of the set is panned but the Shield I still find to have a lot of utility even now. Though if it's remade in mechanic it should just automatically block the first attack instead of having to manually enable it.

2. Elemental Absorption: Like what we used to have from Icefall's Fire absorb. Not sure how this would even work in today's game.

3. Damage Reduction: Yes this has been seen on a lot of items, but there's nothing that's permanently available that does this.

4. Pet/Guest Banishment: I feel like this could be an interesting set of restrictions to play around with. Items like Caden's Wrath have a damage bonus for having no pet/guest and an extremely old spell like Damnation V did extra damage in exchange for permanently locking your pet/guest slots.

5. SP Regenerating Pets: Yes this is also something we've seen a lot, but none of these options are obtainable outside of premiums or events. The only option for this right now is Nightmaregon which isn't even modernly scaled.

6. Form Changing Armors. Like Anthracite Coal Armor where you can unlock an armor state by getting hit.

7. Mogloo elemental shield: This isn't a mechanic seen outside of Frostval. A permanent version of this would be nice somewhere.

8. Caltrops: Enough said. Also since this based on DEX this would give rangers more of a space.

9. Everslumber: Sleep + HP Heals? Yes please!

10. Poseidon Edge: Regen HP + Mana Drain Attacks.

11. Various mechanics I suggested a long time ago.

12. Scrambled elemental attacks: Like what you see with Hand of Carnax/Chillax/Time-Twisted. More or these would be interesting.

13. Mythical Warrior: Quick-Cast heal in armor that doesn't required a charge-up time like LOH.

14. Blunderbuss Shield: Extra hits from lucky strikes.



Red Blood -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/9/2022 22:49:43)

Yep kinda why I mentioned it'd likely be a pain to do let alone throwing something akin to Quadforce in or ways you might be able to come out ahead with more stats via drive shield/ armor. As for never using an item not worth it I've taken Revenant into the challenge Lich fight sometimes I want to headbutt a wall, and break it even if there is a more effective way. Like won't happen either way but hey even just chatting about some of the old crazy items is fun, and might pull out a few ideas.



Yozai -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/10/2022 12:52:38)

quote:

@Yozai
I also endorse the idea of more permanent battle effects, especially now that the devs have truly permanent effects that have no duration instead of the previous 9999-turn pseudo-permanent effects. We have gotten two relatively recently in Absolute Darkness and Nature's Reclamation, so I would support just the idea in general even outside of Champion sets, though I do see how this encroaches on their raison d'etre.


Ye the spells versions would also be lovely to see, I just really enjoy the champions xP

And an Item Mechanic I really really would love to se back, I think most FD mages would.... Tomes.... almost don't care what they gonna do, just want more of them.



RobynJoanne -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/10/2022 15:04:05)

@PD
Wow, that's a long list.
1) Autododge. It's an interesting idea. Personally, I'm not much of a fan of once-per-battle effects normally, and I'm even less of a fan of dodge in general, but it would be good to see some more. The Hyperalphean Set suffered more from a distinct lack of identity and general usability than anything else. The weapons and the pet required procs, and people do not like RNG. The armor was just a bunch of toggles to increase damage when no one attacked normally. The spell was similar in that regard, as it was released back when no one cast spells and its overcharged nature hurts it even more now in the era of damage caps. The shield had nothing to do with the rest of the set. The misc also had nothing to do with the rest of the set and had its cost increased to obscene levels. With all that being said, I am always in support of the Frostval Giftbox Sets getting mechanical clones. I cannot stand the idea of unique mechanics being locked forever from players without the opportunity to play during December.
I'm also pretty sure Hyperalphean Skjoldr is overpowered. A monster is assumed to hit 2 times a turn, so auto-dodging the first hit should be worth half monster damage. Half of a monster's turn is 70% Melee, but once-per-battle effects are only worth 50% Melee.

2) Elemental Absorption. This kind of effect could be valued as a heal and a full EleShield. The heal would just be a 140% Melee heal without any penalties due to not being always-useful or auto-hit. The full EleShield would be 140% Melee before any penalties; the penalties would depend on implementation. It seems to be a costly though fun effect. Icefall's version would probably be unpopular though. 25% chance to negate and heal means a 75% chance to take a massive amount of damage. People do no like RNG, especially when it means you will die if you get a bad roll. People dislike Mogsterio for this very reason, and that roll is actually in your favor.

3) Damage Reduction. I've recently been reintroduced to the beauty of flat damage reduction, and I would also like to see these effects more often. If you mean Choke and Panic, I also like these status effects. EleShields are a bit of a mess with regards to balance, but I use them extensively as well.

4) Pet/Guest Banishment. It's certainly an interesting idea. I am sure this would be very unpopular right now, but depending on how the devs address guests and Cha in the stat revamp, this could be a better trade-off. Still, I like my healing pets/guests, and this is just a massive cos in terms of versatility.

5) SP Regenerating Pets. We all love some SP regen. I'm just not sure of how financially viable this move would be. The recently released F2P Rocky Fairy Godmother completely powercrept the Premium Plushie Twilly. I don't think it is wise to do the same to Plushie Mort.

6) Form Changing Armors. These are fun. Mechanically, I'd always prefer normal compression unless the form change unlocks something substantially, but compression is also something I'd like to see more of that I did not include in this thread since the devs are clearly thinking about compression.

7) Mogloo elemental shield. Mogloo is very expensive resource-wise. I have never found the shield worth running, but I guess implementation is a major problem here. A more optimized item with the same effect could be substantially better.

8) Caltrops. Since Dex plays a smaller role in blocking than in the past, this is better than before. If Dex gets removed from blocking entirely like it should, then Caltrops can finally have a place to shine.

9) Everslumber. Freedom makes this sting a little, but I will always support more healing. I also love the idea of eating dreams for HP. [;)]

10) Poseidon Edge. I absolutely love this. I would like to see the effect strengthened beyond a mere MC, but this is great.

12) Scrambled Elemental Attack. Call of Chillax is one of the most insane spells we have ever seen. I have no idea how to make this kind of thing popular or even viable, but these things are fun.

13) Mythical Warrior. I would absolutely use this if I had this kind of effect available to me. However, I think quick-cast effecs should probably be reined in for the sake of the game. We are able to do far too many things in a turn right now.

14) Blunderbuss Shield. More offensive shields in general would be great. We got Troposhield relatively recently, and that was great. Shields like Blunderbuss would help a lot while we are still figuring out balanced ways to deal with damage caps.

@Yozai
I would love to see more Tomes. We are still missing an Ice and a Darkness one, and it certainly would not hurt to have more choices in general. However, Tomes are very hard to make for the team, so I try to avoid asking for more when the devs know this is a very underserved part of the game.



Dardiel -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/10/2022 18:59:38)

I agree with @Yozai, I love trading early power for stacking permanent changes - I use Absolute Darkness, Pzycho Sabre, and Nerfit, plus I just bought Plague Pick entirely because they're all items that allow stacking permanent effects.

I would particularly love to see some viable permanent MRM reduction that isn't arbitrarily hardapped like Nerfit, as the only option for that after the Necromancer rework is the Pzycho Sabre which has its set of hoops to jump through.

I'm also a supporter of items that have on-miss effects rather than having all items do things when they hit, partially because I think it could be a neat way to spice up some builds (for example you might be tempted to reduce MainStat to boost the odds of getting the miss effect which would theoretically be hugely strong compared to on-hit effects, but if the effect uses MainStat for a save then it's harder to abuse) and partially because I suggested a weapon that tries to reduce enemy MRM when you miss (It's felt strange to me that all MRM reduction effects currently require landing a hit - someone that's expecting to land hits probably isn't too concerned about reducing enemy MRM unless there's some huge inaccurate leans to take advantage of)

Finally, I like the idea of temporarily or permanently increasing enemy resists in a way that isn't as strong as PCO's shuffle - perhaps more like Torontosaurus, though even then I think that the effect shouldn't require you to land a hit of an element to increase the damage dealt of the same element. I feel that it should be possible to soften up a boss that's at negative resists, though with a difficulty that the designers can control rather than "1% resist can be raised, 0% and below can't because you have to deal damage with that element to raise the resist"



PD -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/11/2022 0:33:19)

@Robyn: Since we're mostly in agreement, just a few additional thoughts:

1. Scrambled Elemental Attacks: To be honest, I suggested most of these not out of practicality, but as a thought experiment to see what might be possible if re-imagined with today's standards. A lot of my examples are indeed outdated so they don't translate 100% but still should be useful to bounce ideas off of. That being said on this one I always imagined this one to be more or a niche case. Like certain other armors that give you elecomp for locking the element (Svad, Griffin, Algerns, Drakath, etc), these armors I imagined would be mostly restricted for wars or certain quests where their unique mix of targetted element and defenses would work for that rare situation.

2. Autododge: I actually was not aware that this said ability might be overpowered. Though I still like this idea in concept but if that's true then it should be adjusted. Maybe a flat damage reduction + status (block without "blocking") resist that applies for that turn only so that it makes it more consistent in value without taking huge advantage of certain odd hit models like 1-hit nukes. Come to think about it it might be a good idea to test out the idea of instead of providing blocking, that items should provide damage reductions + status resist to emulate a "partial block". After all a dodge could be thought of as a 100% damage resist with 100% status resist if it's an on-hit effect.

3. SP Regen Pets: So on this one, I don't have the Plush twilly so I wasn't aware of this. However if we did get another nightmaregon type pet that would encroach on Mort's niche, I think a lot of this is going to go back to the "I pay for the doll and not the in-game item" debate. Depending on how you view it I think it is either seen as an acceptable thing or not. For me at least I will acknowledge, a lot of my decision to buy that plush was the in game item. That being said, if this happens, I might still consider buying Mort a good idea for the following reasons:

  • Heromart items like all premium items are 0-quest, 0-cost items: I think people tend to undersell this. Unlike a lot in this niche where they more or less occupy space permanently unless you have the means to get them again, these items if you have them can be obtained with ease. If you're changing builds or you have a low-level character, this is a huge deal. Changing builds is expensive because not only the training cost, but also potentially needing to re-gear your entire character. Not to mention at the early game you don't have a lot of inventory so being able to use items only as you need them is critical.

  • They don't depend on seasonality: At least applicable to Dreamseer/Fae Wanderer. Kind of an extension to the above point. Even if you had the painting, you needed to get it at the appropriate time in the first place. I can on the other hand, buy a Twilly Plush right now if I wanted it. Mort has an appeal over the above because it's a guarenteed heal and it's available all year around. If there's a permanently available gold item of this, this point will admittingly be moot.

    Though on this one I believe at one point Plush Mort did go out of stock in the past so this might still be worth considering as a point. COVID supply chain issues are still abound and this it's certainly a possibility.

  • Premium Items Scale: This is actually a bigger deal than people realize. This might honestly warrant a GBI but ever since a 2019 with a game engine update designed to reduce the amount of time needed to make monsters, all monsters scale equally to your level, or a proportionate amount to your level (wars for example, where it might be your level + 10 for level 160 monsters). Normal items are fixed in tiers. Specifically 5, 15, 35, 55, 75, 95, 115, 135, 150. This might seem like a harmless change at first, but this actually makes the early game harder for low-level characters. The game might assume that you buy items in Battleon's main shops between regular tiers, but 20 levels is a gigantic gap. If you were only using quest items because you didn't want to sell them due to some effect, then you'd yourself getting overwhelmed by enemies who are almost to more than twice as strong as you (15 vs 34) and you're forced to use highly under-leveled items. Scaling items allow you to keep up with modern scaling.

    Items like Burden of Insight, Royal Void Charge and Nith's Fang are probably the most critical items you can get early on. But these are restricted by the fact that they have very wide gaps in tiers. Not being able to use them every level makes the game extraordinarily difficult early-on. Monsters dodge a lot early and being able to use skills and heals frequently is critical because of how battles are played early on. Less skill/nuke based and more attrition/slogfest-like. But these items don't scale so their utility becomes less useful in these situations. But scaled items are always useful in this regard because they do not diminsh in strength as you level up.

    I understand that utility is subjective and people may not value these points as much as I do. Yet I don't think it's entirely without merit to buy something for someone else who might also agree with said subjective benefits. But maybe we should probably limit the number of these so that the above doesn't feel "too" worthless. Maybe we could start by updating the tiering on Nightmaregon first and then potentially exploring adding 1 of these.



    • ArchNero -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/11/2022 0:41:44)

    IMO on the SP regen, I think if there was gonna be a F2P equivalent to Mort, the staff I'd imagine would probably make it similarly to how Angra Linnorm is to Dunamis, where it didn't completely overtook the latter but the former is more accessible.



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/11/2022 1:24:04)

    1. Autohit for more elements
    2. Dragonfire Sword mechanics: You pay a small amount of SP to boost damage and bth of weapon. Obviously outclasses by Bloodblades nowadays so a buff to power while increasing the cost slightly would be nice
    3. SP regen pets: Not everyone has Plush Mort/Jelly/Fae. Some non-rare, albeit weaker versions would be nice
    4. F2P backlash items: Backlash is still a build in its infancy, would be nice to see more items for it, especially non-rare ones that aren't premium



    Yozai -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/11/2022 13:21:16)

    quote:

    F2P backlash items: Backlash is still a build in its infancy, would be nice to see more items for it, especially non-rare ones that aren't premium


    Osiris and Nemesis, just needs an update for this[;)]



    battlesiege15 -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (5/12/2022 8:38:13)

    Also, how about something like Spellcraft?

    This may be unpopular but I remember it being superfun back in the day. Balance wise, I think that the fact that it needs "charges" can negate the penalty for 9-element spell compression. Of course, to make it balanced, it would make sense to cap the amount of stored charges to maybe like 40 charges assuming 4 casts every 2 turns and then 10 waves for a standard MC quest (right...?).

    And just going to throw out something like Bag o' Bones too because it's fun lol



    Ninjaty -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (7/9/2022 10:59:47)

    I really miss the Krieger Blade / Bludrut Blade timed element changing effects. Those were fun, and if we do get retro versions of those two like I hope, I look forward to those kinds of effects returning to the game. Just clicking to change might be more efficient, but it is also just a more boring alternative to me.

    The timed rotation functionality could even be applied to more than just weapon elements, like elemental resistances on an armor! Imagine the resistances going from worst to best, and immediately after best, they go straight back to worst. If you time it right, you can be set up with elemental resistance that is much better than a normal armor for your level. But if you time it wrong or get unlucky, you'll end up with much worse resistance. And since enemy attack speeds are different, you'll need to get a feeling for how long each enemy attack is.



    battlesiege15 -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (7/9/2022 14:11:32)

    @Ninjaty: Kind of like the Chaos Armor? Throw in a backlash to that armor and I bet it would have a very juicy EleComp!

    We also have the Pendant of the Galin.
    Hourglass Axe series had a really cool effect. I remember setting it up perfectly with the Kindred armor for biiiig damage.



    Ninjaty -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (7/9/2022 14:49:22)

    @battlesiege15: Not quite like Chaos Armor, no, unless there is something I am missing with it. It would be more like the Forest Demon monster, which loops back and forth between it's lowest and highest defense. This would essentially be the same, but for you (and for your elemental resistances instead of defenses), so you'd have to time your attacks, in order to not be at your most vulnerable when the monster attacked. The modifier(s) wouldn't just be set in stone at the beginning of the fight, or once you declare an attack. Instead, they would continue to update every frame or every other frame. And just to make it a bit more risky, which could also justify the armor having potentially better resistances than others, immediately after the best possible value, it would flip around back to the worst.

    So, for instance, the resistances could go like this: 80->79->78->77..... 33->32->31->30->80, over the course of a few seconds, and then repeat.

    I dunno, I think it could just be an interesting new take on one of my favorite weapon mechanics, if applied to armor.



    battlesiege15 -> RE: Returning Item Mechanic Wishlist (7/9/2022 15:51:32)

    Oh I see! My bad. That does make sense and would be cool.



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