=DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (Full Version)

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Peachii -> =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/2/2022 21:07:54)

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[image]https://www.dragonfable.com/images/DF/author/Verlyrus.png[/image]
Verlyrus:
Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak

Hey there heroes!

This week, the Lords of Chaos board has been updated with the 12th Lord of Chaos and his Chaos Beast!

[image]https://cms.battleon.com/DF/images/CHAOS7-ALTEONdn.png[/image]

Face off against Alden Alteon, the Fallen King, and his once proud dragon Corvak in the latest addition to the Arena at the Edge of Time!

Defeat them both to earn and upgrade the Chaotic Blade of Swordhaven!

With two Chaos challenge remaining, do you have what it takes to face the latest threat emerging from the portal?

Head over to the Inn at the Edge of Time to find out!



Also this week, September Seasonal items have arrived! The latest addition to the Sunken pirate themed set is here!

[image]https://cms.battleon.com/DF/images/Scythe-DCSep2022-Promo.png[/image]

The cosmetic Gaze of the Sunken is sure to strike terror into your foes!

Also returning this month are the Earthvessel items, Sunken Plunderer, and Pirate's Bane!

Be sure to check them out in the Shops tab of the Book of Lore if you're interested.



Finally, a small fix!

  • Keybind 5 should now function properly.



    And that's all for this week!

    Have feedback about recent releases? Have any crazy theories or ideas? Want to discuss all things DragonFable?

    Join the discussion on the official forums!

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  • Laeon val Observis -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/2/2022 21:11:18)

    Another month of Chaos, another mayhem for KAA. That is all.




    TFS -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/2/2022 23:13:53)

    I was a bit confused by Alteon at first; because the mechanic is framed as breaking an enemy's individual body parts, my first thought as a player was that I was supposed to break all of them (this is actually the opposite of what you want to do) and thought something was wrong when breaking all of them didn't do anything. In actuality, breaking each body part gives him a unique buff (True Science Fact: breaking an enemy's sword actually causes them to deal more damage) and you are strictly punished for breaking more than one of them. Once I realized the framing/flavor was a trick, I thought it was kinda neat that different classes could choose which body part to break depending on which buff would be least harmful to them - but it's just an illusion of choice and entering Phase 2 automatically breaks all of his body parts anyway (without setting their HP to 0, which was another source of confusion as it made me think I should still be attacking them). What you really want to do here is spread out damage between all three body parts so he can enter Phase 2 without breaking anything, which keeps the buffs out of Phase 1 at least.

    While the mechanic is really cool, I think this would still be the exact same fight if the body part targeting wasn't there at all - if anything, the flavor/framing wouldn't actively contradict the mechanics. Or maybe I'm just dumb lol




    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/3/2022 0:01:02)

    I quite enjoy the new challenge, especially with Corvak having different rotations and giving us the ability to choose which one suits your class best. I do agree with TFS on the body breaking for Alteon, it's a cool mechanic but doesn't really change the fight in any way regardless of whether or not which one you break first since everything automatically breaks eventually.




    Cryomancer -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/3/2022 1:55:25)

    In my opinion, I think this is probably the best executed Chaos Lord to date on a mechanical level. The fact that the player can influence the rotation of both bosses renders it by far the most interactive out of any Chaos Lord fight, and whilst the damage output of Alteon's second phase is overwhelming, the player is at least given some counterplay in breaking one or two body parts and delaying his second phase for a while. In a similar vein, I also appreciate the fact that the player is able to determine whether Corvak uses a defensive or an offensive rotation depending on which element they hit him with, which both adds interactivity to the fight and keeps it from wearing out its welcome by acting as a soft enrage of sorts, as the player can lower its damage output by hitting it with Nature whilst Alteon is still alive, but going on the offensive will require the player to hit it with Energy which in turn increases the damage of its attacks.

    That being said, I do have two criticisms of the fight. Firstly, Alteon's Chaos accumulates a bit too quickly for how much health he has and how much damage he does in phase 2 - as even if a player does destroy 2 body parts of his eventually, they will still only have around 15-20 turns before Alteon's second phase starts. I think this is a bit too restrictive for most defensive classes which will need to survive against Alteon's second phase for an extended period of time. The second, albeit less pressing, criticism I have is that I think Alteon's transition nuke does too much damage for what seems to be an attack that seems to have enough hidden Bonus to render shield ineffective, though the fact that this only occurs once does alleviate matters a bit.

    quote:

    I was a bit confused by Alteon at first; because the mechanic is framed as breaking an enemy's individual body parts, my first thought as a player was that I was supposed to break all of them (this is actually the opposite of what you want to do) and thought something was wrong when breaking all of them didn't do anything. In actuality, breaking each body part gives him a unique buff (True Science Fact: breaking an enemy's sword actually causes them to deal more damage) and you are strictly punished for breaking more than one of them. Once I realized the framing/flavor was a trick, I thought it was kinda neat that different classes could choose which body part to break depending on which buff would be least harmful to them - but it's just an illusion of choice and entering Phase 2 automatically breaks all of his body parts anyway (without setting their HP to 0, which was another source of confusion as it made me think I should still be attacking them). What you really want to do here is spread out damage between all three body parts so he can enter Phase 2 without breaking anything, which keeps the buffs out of Phase 1 at least.

    Breaking the body parts slows down the rate which Alteon's Chaos builds up, which buys you extra turns before phase 2 begins.




    TFS -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/3/2022 3:16:35)

    ^Breaking each body part switches its associated attack to its Phase 2 equivalent, and breaking all three body parts will send him to Phase 2 early. The only thing you're actually accomplishing by doing that is pushing the (immutable and inevitable) autohit back a few turns, at the expense of having to deal with increased base damage, autocrit, Bonus, and Boost for more turns than necessary. This is not a wise choice.




    Cryomancer -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/3/2022 7:44:18)

    quote:

    ^Breaking each body part switches its associated attack to its Phase 2 equivalent, and breaking all three body parts will send him to Phase 2 early. The only thing you're actually accomplishing by doing that is pushing the (immutable and inevitable) autohit back a few turns, at the expense of having to deal with increased base damage, autocrit, Bonus, and Boost for more turns than necessary. This is not a wise choice.

    The issue with spreading out damage over all three body parts is that Alteon's second phase gains an additional nuke in his second phase that is independent of his other attacks (the one with the beams) - which makes his second phase far more difficult to survive again than his first phase, even with one or even two body parts broken (as the empowered DoT isn't as dangerous as his nukes). Even if you break the arms in the first phase, you're still going from 1 nuke every 4 turns in phase 1 to 2 nukes every 5 turns in phase 2 that are spaced out fairly awkwardly.

    Hence unless your class has the damage output to defeat Alteon in around 13-15 turns, breaking at least one body part as quickly as possible to stall the beginning on his second phase would probably be the better option.




    TFS -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/3/2022 10:17:17)

    Uh. Unless you're Kathool Adept and can break the head on turn 2 or 3, breaking a body part is what will cause an extra instance of the pillar attack, as his rotation will reset before phase change if left to its own devices. Regardless, the broken body part attacks both deal more damage than the pillar attack (600% autocrit and 600% with 100x3 Null dot vs 800% with no effect) anyway. So even if that was true, you'd be taking up to four stronger attacks (plus 20 Boost) just to avoid one instance of a weaker one.

    While it might seem like there's an argument to be made for breaking the head and nothing else, as this will avoid a single instance of the broken sword attack, this just gives him an unnecessary Crit/Bonus buff (and an unnecessary instance of the pillar attack) as you'd be shielded on that turn in either instance in order to keep 50 Boost off of the autohit/autocrit 800% (also something about a supposed dragon that allegedly does dragon things on that turn).
    You get two turns for one broken limb and four turns for two broken limbs, but breaking sword or body is never justifiable, and breaking head only arguably has benefits at all (with very obvious downsides). I don't consider choosing to take more damage at no benefit to be a wise choice.




    Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/3/2022 11:44:53)

    I think with Alteon, I should have moved more of the big changes to the Chaos phase, as opposed to part breaks. For example, keeping the part break buffs, but having the chaos empowered attacks be Chaos phase only.

    Even if i did make that adjustment, I don't think this was the best showcase of the potential of the part-break mechanic.

    I think there's still more depth I can do with body part targeting- I don't want to discount it yet, but it might be best for story things where they can easily be much more impactful in the player's favor.

    In terms of Challenges, they need to be more give/take or (I feel) influence things more than just a numbers buff/debuff- I have lots of ideas playing with how/when they're destroyed, or even regenerated (small HP pool, must destroy correct ones to do xyz, or even influence what happens).

    I also need to resolve the issue of DoT damage not hurting parts if I work with them again in a challenge.

    I do hope this was a step in the right direction though! I think Corvak in particular, while not necessarily the cleanest, was a good example of the style that I am aiming for going forward. Of course, I'll still try new things and mix things up!




    TFS -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/3/2022 17:17:16)

    ^For what it's worth, I don't think having part breaks being be impactful in the player's favor is necessarily something that would preclude the fight from being challenging. Just as an example, if Alteon started out the fight with empowered attacks, but then breaking a part de-powered its associated attack and brought him closer to a second phase, the fight would be more difficult while encouraging use of the mechanic, giving the player a meaningful choice between attacks and how long to deal with them, and having the breaks be in their favor (while also probably having the mechanic make more sense thematically).
    There are kinda vestiges of this in the actual fight, but it's muddied by how each individual component is balanced (the attacks associated with broken body parts are more threatening than the abilities exclusive to phase 2, and his quick enrage speed makes the supposed upside of breaking body parts very low-impact regardless).
    I'm still excited to see more of this mechanic in the future, giving the player a choice between multiple ways to change the fight is always a good thing.

    I also liked Corvak a lot! Being able to influence which rotation he uses results in there being multiple ways to solve the fight depending on class and the state of the battle. This isn't strictly exploitable either, as being forced to engage with multiple rotations also prevents you from just spamming the one your class is most comfortable with, and the threat of the ??? rotation prevents him from just being ignored in the duo fight. Super interactive fights like this are my favorites, and if there are to be more bosses like this in the future I'm excited for them!




    Laeon val Observis -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/4/2022 4:26:55)

    Is it just me or is there some funky reset button on Corvak when Alteon gets KO'd? Been burning unnecessary pots (apart from tolerating the occasional connection loss) when I clearly remember what element he is struck previously with my dragon, but he still goes Chaos mode even if hit by the appropriate different element he has 200 res to (e.g. he was clearly in Nature mode, but still goes Chaos even after my dragon hits him with Energy).

    EDIT: Nvm, didn't notice he only tracks the first hit when checking for cascade, and Apotheosis is none of the 3 elements for his safer options.
    EDIT II: after taking a breather to clear mind and visualize the victory, finally triumphed using a modified variation of Astral v Fallen Kingdom involving altering the timing of Migraine (ensures that it's my dragon who'll Cascade Corvak when we inevitably go mano a mano apart from going for a pot if somehow the fight turned differently) and did a bit of a gambit on early game byswapping to BiS generic (used Tidal in conjunction with BiS offensive) after Alt decides to try and lop off my head (even with the might of Writhe, he does have a real chance of actually doing that).

    All in all, this segment of the LoC board went according to my combat predictions (already sensed KAA being a nice contender among the offensive classes useful here after Corv pwed my DmK twice without any meaningful progress, although it's partly my fault for brain farting and not realizing that Corv's mechanics were a twist to the Symbiotic Darkness Elemental's). However, I do voice similar concerns that these opponents do have significant number vomiting involved, primarily on Alteon's side of the fight. Not every class can consistently shred through two of his body parts, and the pressure of his HP definitely sent me over the healthy edge consistently throughout my encounters. Corv's can be fought blind, as is the case when I used my default build and using only a single HP pot when I KAA'd him for the first time.




    The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= September 2nd Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Alteon & Corvak (9/6/2022 0:58:31)

    quote:

    In my opinion, I think this is probably the best executed Chaos Lord to date on a mechanical level. The fact that the player can influence the rotation of both bosses renders it by far the most interactive out of any Chaos Lord fight, and whilst the damage output of Alteon's second phase is overwhelming, the player is at least given some counterplay in breaking one or two body parts and delaying his second phase for a while. In a similar vein, I also appreciate the fact that the player is able to determine whether Corvak uses a defensive or an offensive rotation depending on which element they hit him with, which both adds interactivity to the fight and keeps it from wearing out its welcome by acting as a soft enrage of sorts, as the player can lower its damage output by hitting it with Nature whilst Alteon is still alive, but going on the offensive will require the player to hit it with Energy which in turn increases the damage of its attacks.

    After clearing it with several classes, I definitely echo the sentiment that this is a very cool, mechanically nuanced fight. I really like the way that Corvak's threats change depending on how he's tuned. The most difficult challenges tend to have the second monster gain abilities or have some kind of rule change and that definitely happens here. Even though you can trigger elemental balance like a normal mechanic, it plays out like an enrage because you can leave Corvak in nature/light normally (certain classes prefer different starts), but the nature HoT is too big to deal with when you actually have to hit him. Energy/light means a boost rotation and a shielded rotation, but he doesn't gain +bth normally so shielding the big attacks lets you keep momentum. Although it probably wasn't intended, it's also really cool that several classes can intentionally bait chaotic imbalance in order to avoid dealing with all three boost/mpm/hot choices.
    I also really like Alteon. The dialog is flavorful, almost reluctant, and the attack animations draw from him being a former Dragonlord as well as cues from the AQW version of the fight. The controllable +damage/mpm and his phase 2 make him feel like a more fair version of Tomix.
    Although the part breaking is framed backwards on Alteon, I think even this iteration of the mechanic is relevant because it can be used to punish burst classes (as they wouldn't be able to swap targets mid-attack) while classes that spread their damage out over multiple turns can mitigate it.




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