The issue of the core assumptions for pet accuracy and damage. (Full Version)

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Dreiko Shadrack -> The issue of the core assumptions for pet accuracy and damage. (3/6/2023 20:25:35)

The core assumptions for a player's turn state that the pet is always present, but CHA is not. This poses a problem as having the accuracy tied to CHA and a Mainstat makes it impossible for the pet to have the assumed 85% expected accuracy and 20% melee damage.

This issue does not affect guests as they are not part of the core assumptions for a player's turn.

Reasoning:
CHA*2/25 + DEX*2/25 + LUK/50

Is the current formula, we'll just assume it's tied to mainstat instead in 50:50 Ratio so:
250*2/25 + 250*2/25 + 250/50 = 45 bth

With the primary providing 18.75 bth as normal. They get another 38 as standard at level 150 so:
45 + 38 = 83

Then monster blocking is
FLOOR(150/4 + 55) = 92

Plus
Monster Stat Blocking = 225 * 1/50 = 4.5

92 + 4.5 = 96.5

Then:
(100 + 83 – 96.5 ) / 100 = 86.5

All is well, except you need both CHA and Mainstat to make that work. Without CHA, you lose 18.75 bth as mentioned, which comes out to 67.75% accuracy.
Assuming you're at 0 CHA your pet deals half damage, 20% melee, so you're dealing 67.75/86.5 = 78%~ = 15.6% melee.
If you take CHA out of the equation as per the core assumptions, the pet deals 78% of what it should. For clarity the 50:50 ratio doesn't matter since any amount of CHA at all makes pets weaker than they should be for 0 CHA users.

The easiest solution, in our estimation, is to simply remove CHA from the accuracy formula for pets and instead scale it purely on mainstat (or alternatively not having it scale with any stat to begin with).

EDIT:

A revised solution that isn't as easy but still fixes the issue while not penalizing Beastmaster builds but still penalizing 0-mainstat builds:
quote:

If (Max(STR/DEX/INT) / Vstat) < 1 {

  Max(STR/DEX/INT) * 2/25 + CHA * 2/25 + LUK/50

}

Else
{

  If (CHA / Vstat) < 1 {

     Min(Max(STR/DEX/INT), Vstat) * 4/25 + LUK/50

   }

   Else
   {

       Cha * 4/25 + LUK/50

   }
}

Explanation (as a level 150): If your highest mainstat isn't 250 then you use the 50/50 split formula; if your highest mainstat is 250 or above but your CHA isn't then use only mainstat for accuracy; if both your highest mainstat and CHA are 250 or above use only CHA for accuracy.
Furthermore under this current model while I did say "penalizing 0-mainstat builds" it's more accurate to say that those builds will not benefit from these proposed changes, absent the changes and following the current plans for CHA nothing would change for them from how things already are.

spoiler:

I still say that making it not scale from stats at all and putting the burden of fixing inequality on item support is the most accurate solution. :B




CH4OT1C! -> RE: The issue of the core assumptions for pet accuracy and damage. (3/6/2023 20:29:28)

Pets/Guests have been long-standing issues, but this is one of the few problems that is directly related to CHA the stat rather than issues with individual items on a case-by-case basis. Given CHA is a major part of the stat revamp project, this inconsistency between assumptions and reality should definitely be taken into consideration. The current system makes CHA mathematically overpowered at the direct expense of 0 CHA users (which it really doesn't need to begin with!).

The solution presented here (i.e. removing CHA from the formula) is likely the easiest single way to remove this problem as pet attacks are assumed to strike at 85% accuracy (which, as described above, is to be expected with appropriate stat investment). However, solely removing it is insufficient as it would open a void in bth that couldn't be plugged in the same way as was done last time (i.e. changing Monster blocking). The most efficient way to handle it is to make Pet accuracy scale entirely on mainstat (with a minor LUK component). It's not the most elegant solution (one could question why player STR should affect pet accuracy), but it is the easiest, mathematically sound solution. Another option could be to increase pet base bth, though this could be just as tricky as the current issues with Guests. I would definitely advocate for the former.

EDIT: Unfortunately, due to the discrepancy within the player turn formula, our discussions over Discord have produced no elegant solutions to the problem (as is shown above).
My personal preference in this regard would be to make Pet accuracy independent from CHA for the sake of simplicity, plugging the gap with Pet bth boosting items. Whilst the if-else system above does work in the majority of situations, it makes things more complicated to follow from the outside.
This applies whether it scales via mainstat or to no stat at all




Lv 1000 -> RE: The issue of the core assumptions for pet accuracy and damage. (3/6/2023 22:42:24)

The fact that pets have basically never actually functioned as they're intended to is honestly baffling. This is something that should definitely be addressed in the stat rework.

While there are indeed multiple ways to solve this problem, I'm more inclined suggest that pets scale accuracy 100% with MainStat rather than removing all stat scaling entirely. This has multiple effects:
1) Solves the CHA accuracy issue on the Pet side of things
2) Further reinforces the idea that CHA is a secondary stat.
3) Maintains the player's ability to boost pet accuracy with stat boosts (would be impossible if all accuracy stat scaling was replaced with a fixed value).

Regardless, any changes a long the lines of what has been proposed would make for a welcome buff to players that want to use pets with their build without feeling like they need to invest into CHA, which is what the game assumes in the first place.




Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: The issue of the core assumptions for pet accuracy and damage. (3/7/2023 6:56:44)

quote:

The easiest solution, in our estimation, is to simply remove CHA from the accuracy formula for pets and instead scale it purely on mainstat


Some people on discord were confused by what this meant exactly and so I'll add some clarification. This refers to the highest of the 3 Mainstats that you have, including boosts, which is read from top to bottom in the case of having equal values across 2 or more of them.

EDIT:

A revised solution that isn't as easy but still fixes the issue while not penalizing Beastmaster builds but still penalizing 0-mainstat builds as a consequence of fixing things:
quote:

If (Max(STR/DEX/INT) / Vstat) < 1 {

  Max(STR/DEX/INT) * 2/25 + CHA * 2/25 + LUK/50

}

Else
{

  If (CHA / Vstat) < 1 {

     Min(Max(STR/DEX/INT), Vstat) * 4/25 + LUK/50

   }

   Else
   {

       Cha * 4/25 + LUK/50

   }
}





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