Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (Full Version)

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Bannished Rogue -> Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (5/26/2023 1:59:16)

There's not enough room for all the statuses that one might buff one's self or be afflicted with or conversely the opponent.

For example, using something like the newly updated Nekomancer Deadly Empress Doll (misc) and/or Dark invader (armor) and using the skills and affects, it'll look like this:
https://i.imgur.io/V4SXm7Z.png
However, not only have I actually inflicted 7 total Spiritual seeds, I've also inflicted
• slow effect (both BtH defense and accuracy loss)
• elemental vulnerability to all elements (not just energy and fire)
• choke
• status weakness
But you of course can't see any of those because of the limited space.

There should be more rows of the symbols we see with their corresponding effects. Additionally having similar like effects on the same row for organizational purposes. When you hover your mouse over the corresponding row, it will twll you all of those applicable effects of that row and replace the character scroll so long as its over that row (mind you in the below photos, I kinda just threw them in there quick, so there might be some inconsistencies):

The first row being permanent effects https://imgur.com/MfNoUZJ.png

Second being less than permanent effects or effects based on saves https://imgur.com/S6kBD3C.png

Third row being less than permanent negative effects https://imgur.com/btv19GT.png

Fourth row being time based positive effects https://imgur.com/jTF6k8W.png

Last bottom row would be negative time based effects https://imgur.com/ZvZCu5F.png

Shifted into Suggestions, where this belongs. Images removed. They're too big. Some of us are still making do with 500mb data per month. ~ Ward



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (9/17/2023 4:39:11)

There simply isn't enough to do as an end game player who's practically gotten all the gear they will ever use outside of the weekly release, which still might not provide gear:
• at all (stat updates, quest script updates, etc.)
• gear that you'll get (donation contests, etc.)
• gear that you don't already have (back to school, etc.)
• gear that fits your build
• gear that fits your character aesthetic
• etc..

In an effort to increase overall play-time instead of players hopping on maybe once a week-month, playing through event if at all exists, and logging off, all within the timeframe of about 10-20mins. Without making the length/duration of events contrived, Staff should focus on producing some more quality temporary items that replace no drop and updating/revamping the current ones that exist for viability (should at least scale to player level).
There should be 3 tiers of temporary items each being significantly stronger than the previous to make efforts provide a sense of worth and accomplishment:
• Tier 1- Available from instantly accessible locations like war room chests (level scale)
• Tier 2- Stronger than a typical item and generally useful overall. Must be quested for
• Tier 3- (Example: Dragonblade) Extremely powerful but full power only gained under certain conditions or against certain enemies. Must be quested for and quest is of considerable difficulty.
• bonus- lucretia's potions should get a slight buff if ingredients are quested for vs. Bought under the premise of the ingredients being more "fresh", thus providing better effects

This solves multiple issues:
• Players will have something to enjoy playing the game longer without just fighting random monsters in battleon aimelessly.
• players that enjoy playing with stronger, nigh game breaking equipment can scratch that itch if they are willing to work for it, but equipment is temporary and will have to be reachieved upon logging in everytime (this is no different than people cheesing the book of burns tome)
• players struggling to get Tier 3 temporary item(s) can extend playtime to first acquire 1 or multiple Tier 2 temporary item(s). (This isn't any different than when players play the side scrolling shooting enemies mini game to increase BtH.
• ideas that couldn't be implemented due to a lack of balance in comparison to normal items, have viability for implementation.

As a start, the current no drop sets (Ultraguardian and Awe) should be able to get stronger temporary variants if their quests are recompleted considering how much those sets under preform compared to almost any other item.
Then class originating artifacts like the dragonblade in the dragonslayer class. It doesn't make sense that only that single class has some legendary artifact. For instance, ninja class should be able to quest to get Shadow Elizabeth's Katana that comes in melee (katana), Ranged (odachi), and magic (tanto) forms.



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (9/17/2023 4:43:58)

Since subraces get an extra no-drop with a full array of class skills, pure humans should get a buffed regular no drop to compensate for the lack of an entire extra armor.
This solves:
• there is currently no legitimate incentive to not have a subrace
• lack of role play viability not having a subrace
• current no drop (ultraguardian and Awe) under preforming compared to almost any other item especially other pay to win armors.

Also x-guardians should get an even further (miniscule boost) upon reaching max level as there is no need for the extra exp anymore. Or possibly a main stat drive based on armor type.

Currently:

Pay-to-win- Deft Ultra!!!Guardian Leathers (unaligned):
• MRM = 48/52/48
• Elemental modifier (all elements) = 62%

Free-to-play- Leathers Armor (unaligned):
• MRM = 50/50/50
• Elemental modifier (all elements) = 62%

Shouldn't even just the guardian armor be better than the starting armor, let alone the buffed up ultraguardian armor, not to mention one with the GGB !!! further buff??? Like the only benefit is a possible 3 hit attack instead of 1, and an unnoticeable damage increase if you dodge an attack with arguably worse defense that's sub-par for something that's has a central to its mechanics?



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (9/17/2023 4:54:21)

Z token items are severely lacking. Outside of purchasing a house if you don't already have one, there isn't much worth that z token items bring that make purchasing any of them worth it.

Shops from rare and previously perma-rare quests should be put inside Valencia and are only accessible by spending approximately 1000 z-tokens per shop each time that shop is desired to be accessed. This solves:
• encourages more z token package purchases
• There is a whole thread of players wishing to one day trade rare items to each other.
• brings back rare items without the need to reinstate entire old quests.
• brings back appeal and excitement for z token use



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (9/17/2023 5:05:27)

Staff implementing an item from the suggestion section of the forums is a long forgotten concept. Morale is low, players feel disenfranchised and unheard. Staff should make the genuine and honest attempt to implement at least 1 item from a suggestion thread per year and have it as a predictable yearly event.

Having more player suggested items is something I'm very keen to do, sadly it's a balancing act with existing projects and enough time. The suggestion boards are not forgotten and do get read frequently. We've just recently had the donation contest sets themed after player suggestions. ~Anim

If that's the case, then that's good, however what I'm suggesting is this being a reoccurring event and preferably not one toed to a donation event where the items that were used as a foundation are possible to not be acquired by those whom invented said ideas/suggestions..
Also direct feedback would be appreciated. If in your browsing of the suggestions thread as you mentioned, you all come across an idea that you like at least like, it goes a long way to leave a quick message like you did to the effect of: "We like this idea and might consider implementing it, however due to time contraints with existing projects and limited time overall, we cannot provide any time table for if or when this might happen. However know that we appreciate your continued support to help safeguard the wellbeing of the game." ~Bann



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (9/25/2023 23:53:49)

Quality of life for me- Twisted Rogue version Infernal Champion armor. Trades poison potency, and healing from posion for more MRM.

FO Fire armour. Main resist is Fire, secondary is Darkness, weaknesses are Ice/Light, neutral for the other 4 elements. MC pays for 3 skills/toggles that function as follows.

Insight: Toggle on to lose 20% Melee in damage from any weapon/special/spell attacks attempted vs foes with any Poison status on them, you then replenish SP worth (20 x (Hits/Attempts) x 1.075 / 0.85)% Melee at end of turn when attacking Poisoned foes. So Melee/Ranged weapons deal -20% damage, Magic weapons deal -(20 / 0.75 = 26.66...)% damage, and spells/skills deal -10% damage. The healing value is listed below in the HekIns Regen section.

Grasp: Activates a CHA drive effect and simultaneously causes your pet/guest attacks to attempt a 2-turn (12.5 EleComp x Hits / Attempts)% Melee Fire Poiosn to your foe. If you do not currently have a guest out, then the Poison damage is doubled, but you pay the same cost. The CHA value and SP cost are listed under the HekGra section below, as is the cost for the Poison effect (50% Melee per turn for the Poison).

Command: Charges 40%, 60%, or 100% Melee in SP per turn to toggle between applying Celerity to your pet, guest, or both. These values are listed under the HekCom section below.

PLvl 150

BR%- 559
Stat- 1109.8
BtH- 19

Main- 39
Ally- 42
Ntrl*4- 81
Weak*2- 91

Melee- 55
Ranged- 55
Magic- 55

HekIns
Regen- 99

HekGra
CHA- 50
CHASP- 34
PoiSP- 196

HekCom
PCelSP- 157
GCelSP- 235
PGCelSP- 392

https://i.imgur.io/DFTLOQh_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/11/2023 23:26:29)

When Frostval Giftboxes come out, there is no way to know whether or not any of the items upon unboxing will be one of those "useful for all builds" items. So typically players will purchase multiple iterations of the giftboxes on each of their characters.
Due to the transition to level 0 scaling items from giftboxes, it makes it impossible to have more than 1 of any giftbox item on a single character. This makes it hard to store these items and forces players to have to purchase extra slots on multiple characters that have no use for the items at least at the time. Yet due to frostval giftboxes being perma-rare, players feel too afraid to get rid of them incase they change their mind later or a previously uninteresting item gets updated to be extremely useful later.

All past frostval giftbox items should be re-added to the game in Nimrod's Guardian Giftboxen! shop. This shop should only be accessible by trading 1 frostval giftbox tagged item (shop checks for these like Void Challenges ch3cks for "equipment banned from the challenge arena), this will remove either one tagged item at random or if possible, to let player choose which one to open shop. Player will be able to purchase 1 item from shop each time shop is accessed akin to GGBs shops.

This solves:
• There is a whole thread of players wishing to one day trade rare items to each other, which are mainly frostval giftbox items
• brings back rare items without the need to reinstate entire old quests.
• prevents buyer's remorse
• previously mentioned inventory management issue



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/23/2023 0:11:45)

Seasonal Holiday event themed estates... not much else to say..



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/23/2023 0:47:11)

In somewhat reference to my post:
• Knight has- Pria, Stormfallen, frogzard, and Emoran
• Wizard has- All elemental versions plus a generalist robe
• Vampire slayer has- Shadowslayer and Nighthunter
• Martial Artist has- Gogg claw, Slithering Sneak, Fist of the Troll club, and Dragon's breath (and technically frogzard)

It is already common for tier 2 classes to have multiple variants and are all due for a revamp so far.


A martial artist revamp should be backlash based with the permanent status of clawback in addition to the following abilities and effects:
• Gogg claw- Chance for celerity per turn, getting hit increases chance. Getting hit also causes normal attack to go from single strike to a 3 attack animation.

• Slithering sneak- Also get permanent dodgelash effect. Inflicts poison when hit and dodge

• Fist of the Troll Club- Increases damage output when hit like Samukematsuri armor. Later gains berserk. Deals an extra attack at the end of your turn based on number of weapon hits that missed with even lower accuracy and more damage potential.

• Dragon's breath- Backlash also damages enemy's MP and SP. When enemy's MP bar is empty, extra damage to HP. If enemy is hit with SP at 0, rolls to inflict spirit rend.



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/23/2023 0:52:46)

In somewhat reference to my post:
• Knight has- Pria, Stormfallen, frogzard, and Emoran
• Wizard has- All elemental versions plus a generalist robe
• Vampire slayer has- Shadowslayer and Nighthunter
• Martial Artist has- Gogg claw, Slithering Sneak, Fist of the Troll club, and Dragon's breath (and technically frogzard)

It is already common for tier 2 classes to have multiple variants and are all due for a revamp so far.


In keeping with the theme of tier 2 classes, Pirate should have multiple variants and be beastmaster based.
• All- Should have a Sol Neko "Cataclysm"-like skill. The ability to summon a pet version of a their respective guest. Both will have option to pay with gold for even more damage and/or effect.

• Buccaneer- (Focuses on the fighter side of prerequisite) Pets and guests will deal damage like normal and boost player damage

• Corsair- (Focuses on the Rogue side of prerequisite) Pets and guests will apply debuffs to opponent (panic, blind, ele-vuln, etc.) and/or defend player (accuracy reduction, defense boost, etc.)



Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/26/2023 3:26:28)

Currently:

Pay-to-win- Deft Ultra!!!Guardian Leathers (unaligned):
• MRM = 48/52/48
• Elemental modifier (all elements) = 62%

Free-to-play- Leathers Armor (unaligned):
• MRM = 50/50/50
• Elemental modifier (all elements) = 62%

Shouldn't even just the guardian armor be better than the starting armor, let alone the:
• buffed up ultraguardian armor
• one with the GGB !!! further buff???
• one owned by an x-guardian
Like the only benefit is a possible 3 hit attack instead of 1, and an unnoticeable damage increase if you dodge an attack with arguably worse defense that's sub-par for something that's has a central to its mechanics?

Additionally:
Vampire Subrace:
• Additional no drop 10 skill class armor
--- 4 active skills = 200% melee each
--- guest = 60% melee

Werewolf Subrace:
• Additional no drop 10 skill class armor
--- 4 active skills = 200% melee each
--- guest = 60% melee

Werepyre Subrace:
• Additional no drop 10 skill class armor
--- 4 active skills = 200% melee each
--- guest = 60% melee

Pure human race:
• Nothing


Proposed way forward:
• < Message edited -- 11/07/2023> Adventurer already scales to player lvl + MC if guardian, therefore:
--- < guardian- Scale to player lvl or [plyr lvl +5] + MC (Currently doesn't have MC)
--- < ultraguardian- Scale to [player lvl +10] + MC (Already has MC bonus)
--- < ultra!!!guardian- Scale to [player level +15] + MC (Already has MC bonus)

• < Message edited -- 11/07/2023> Since subraces get an extra no-drop with a full array of class skills, pure humans should get a buffed regular no drop to compensate for the lack of an entire extra armor: +602% melee buff (since I'm not proposing giving skills, thus 140% melee instead of 200% melee for lack of 4 skills and 42% instead of 60 for lack of guest)

• Thematic flavor effect- set bonus when all ultra(!!!)guardian items are equipped

• x-guardians should get an even further (miniscule boost) upon reaching max level as there is no need for the extra exp anymore. Or possibly a main stat drive based on armor type.

This also solves:
• there is currently no legitimate incentive to not have a subrace
• lack of role play viability not having a subrace



CH4OT1C! -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/26/2023 7:38:03)

Preface: It has been close to a decade since many of the Guardian no-drops have been updated. The Adventurer no-drops were updated more recently. Unsurprisingly, that does warrant some attention.

The reason that the Deft UltraGuardian Leathers and standard Leather armour offer roughly the same amount of MRM and Elemental resistance is because AQ's items are underlain by a series of standards (balance). These standards go into determining the power of an item: the MRM, the Elemental Resistance, the Damage output etc. These rules apply regardless of whether an item is premium or Gold access ( This explains the concept in more detail).

The Adventurer no-drops (which include the leathers you raised here but also the Steel plate and Mage Robes) scale to player level and gain a Mastercraft (MC) bonus if they're a Guardian. The standard Ultraguardian/Awe no-drops scale to your level -5 and the !!! versions scale to your level. This means, as you're a Guardian, the Adventurer and Ultra!!!Guardian Leathers you're discussing here are at the same power level. This means both will have approximately the same overall amount of power to put into MRM/Resistances etc. It just so happens the way they spend their power is very similar as well.

As noted in the preface, the Guardian/Ultraguardian/Awe no-drops could certainly use some love. All I'm saying is, for the reasons stated above, this isn't a balance-related issue. They aren't broken, just in need of some attention.

A couple of other minor points:
  • A 3-hit attack is a benefit in terms of consistency, but your damage is cut in three for each strike. You're not actually dealing additional damage. Just spreading it out over more hits (that does have some benefits, mind).
  • While a pure human race exists canonically, the lack of a human subrace armour and skilltree isn't a balance issue. Item/Monster/etc. cannot be balanced if it doesn't exist to begin with.



    • Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/26/2023 18:55:42)

    quote:

    The Adventurer no-drops (which include the leathers you raised here but also the Steel plate and Mage Robes) scale to player level and gain a Mastercraft (MC) bonus if they're a Guardian. The standard Ultraguardian/Awe no-drops scale to your level -5 and the !!! versions scale to your level. This means, as you're a Guardian, the Adventurer and Ultra!!!Guardian Leathers you're discussing here are at the same power level. This means both will have approximately the same overall amount of power to put into MRM/Resistances etc.

    By that logic this is still a balance issue, because at most, the guardian should not be weaker than the standard adventurer set; either greater than or equal to. We upgrade to guardian, and get a weaker no drop armor makes no sense.. In which case, ultraguardian should be above that and ultra!!!guardian even further above that:
    Adventurer < guardian < ultraguardian < ultra!!!guardian


    quote:

    While a pure human race exists canonically, the lack of a human subrace armour and skilltree isn't a balance issue. Item/Monster/etc. cannot be balanced if it doesn't exist to begin with

    I am not saying that pure human should have a subrace armors (which doesn't even make sense as all players are at a base, human) that would then be balanced to the other subrace class armors. Each skill of each class armor or the class armor itself is afforded a certain amount of melee.

    Based on your post in the =AQ= On Balance thread, if I am understanding this correctly, then pure human is missing at least 560% melee
    • 4 active skills worth 200% Melee each
    • Since not actually skills- 140% melee for no MP/SP cost normal turn instead of 200%
    • Werewolf, vampire, or werepyre have a guest skill- 140/200=0.7; so 42% melee for guest instead of 60%
    Therefore a total loss of at least 602% melee.

    This melee is lacking in pure humans. While this can be achieved probably in various ways, I believe thematically it would make the most sense to provide that melee in the base no-drop armor instead of a pure human no drop class armor.



    ruleandrew -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (10/26/2023 19:21:30)

    Deft Ultra!!!Guardian Leathers (unaligned) is underpowered by 1 combat defence in range.



    Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/10/2023 19:08:14)

    I dont know how much Melee 1 MRM is worth, but yes that as well:
    • +602% melee
    • +1 #% melee worth 1 MRM
    • + [player lvl+15]
    • + possible set bonus



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/10/2023 21:51:56)

    I'm afraid that's not how it works. You aren't denied %Melee value for an armour/skill/item/etc. that doesn't exist.

    The 1MRM likely comes from scaling rounding errors. It's worth 1.67% Melee



    Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/11/2023 1:52:59)

    I see what you're trying to say, let me explain it like this. My proposal is that the base no drop armor IS the equivalent armor to the no drop subrace class armors.. Therefore the the armor/skill/item/etc. Does exist.
    Further justification:
    • In the same sense of training to class lvl 10 in one subrace and then turn into a different one, but still possess the armor of the last but just not be able to use any of the skills or effects, would be the same justification for the pure human no drop armor getting a sudden buff and not anyone with a subrace and not being able to benefit from that buff in the past.
    • Since being a pure human is the only option that doesn't regard a "'sub'race", it would also make sense for it to not operate exactly like the other subraces. Thus not needing the justification for an additional no drop class armor nor multiple "dropable" armors
    • since vampire, werewolf, werepyre, dracopyre, and neko are all just subraces, it stands to reason why you wouldn't lose your base no drop thematically.

    Conclusion
    Staff could decide to create a pure human class no-drop, though I dont think that would make much sense IMO. However, the fact of the matter is that the additional melee granted by those subrace armors aren't accounted for in any form in the pure human and I would rather focus on its application in something that does exist. The standard no drop is underpowered compared to the subrace no-drop class armors.



    Lorekeeper -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/11/2023 8:58:08)

    If we're focusing on existing gear and not hypotheticals, it must be stated that no-drops are not class armors, and they're not meant to be. Therefore, it's not a GBI that they don't have as many skills - They're not missing something they were not meant to have in the first place. In addition, a skill compression MC is always worth the same regardless of how many skills it compresses, with class and subrace armors having set amounts while three is a soft ceiling for other armors.

    No drop gear could definitely use a pass, both due to its own issues and powercreep over time, but it's not being balanced relative to class or subrace armors.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/11/2023 9:02:18)

    I don't believe those arguments hold water
  • Supposing, as you claim, the no-drop is the "pure human" subrace class armour, one would expect the subrace-exclusive armours to replace it. Instead, they are allocated to the temporary slot. It's dubious to claim the armour should be retained for lore-related reasons, as gameplay and lore don't always align.
  • However, I'm willing to roll with your train of thought. Hypothetically, let's assume you're right - that the no-drop does represent the human subrace armour. If you make that assumption, it actually weakens your claim to an imbalance being present. The reason skills can be compressed into the subrace armours is because their Mastercraft effect goes into compression (with a handwave given to the number of skills compressed). In other words, your claim could only ever apply if the Mastercraft bonus went into compression. Even then, it would not necessitate the same number of skills being present (as such is controlled by a precedent as opposed to a hard rule). The UltraGuardian and Awe equipment are both mastercrafted for non-compression related effects. The updated Adventurer no-drops are mastercrafted for Guardians, which also follows common practice (skills get limited for Adventurers). The sole exception is Insightful AoA, but the number of compressed skills are handwaved and the armour does provide at least one skill.

    At a broader level, I agree something should be considered for pure humans in the long-term. However, this is about imbalances with the existing game mechanics and, unfortunately, they don't stack up in your favour. What you're claiming better fits the realm of a suggestion.

    NB: I think you also may have misunderstood how %Melee works. %Melee is just a metric of power relative to a standard Melee attack. Owning an item doesn't provide %Melee value directly, choosing to use one does. For example, you gain no %Melee by owning a standard spell, but using that spell on your turn deals 200% Melee (75% of which comes from your player damage on that turn, and the other 125% paid for through MP). When we talk about an item not providing a sufficient %Melee, what we're really discussing is how the amount of value you input doesn't properly translate to how much you output (e.g., you input 175% Melee in MP and 75% for player turn, but the amount of damage dealt is only 225% Melee. 250 input vs 225 output). This is another reason why your argument just doesn't make sense. You're basing lost value on *owning* the items/compressed skills etc. rather than *using* them.



    • Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/11/2023 19:10:56)

    In somewhat reference to my post:
    • Knight has- Pria, Stormfallen, frogzard, and Emoran
    • Wizard has- All elemental versions plus a generalist robe
    • Vampire slayer has- Shadowslayer and Nighthunter
    • Martial Artist has- Gogg claw, Slithering Sneak, Fist of the Troll club, and Dragon's breath (and technically frogzard)

    It is already common for tier 2 classes to have multiple variants and are all due for a revamp so far.


    In keeping with the theme of tier 2 classes, the tier 2 rogue succesor should have multiple variants.
    Additionally to fill the gap:
    • Fighter + mage = Dracomancer? (Dracomancer should be a tier 2 class, especially since dragonslayer is its counterpart)
    • Fighter + rogue = pirate and beastmaster (BM should be a tier 1 class)
    • Rogue + mage = arcane trickster and soulknife

    • Arcane Trickster- Defensive and slightly more mage based; passively randomly inflict debuffs. Active skulls that eats status effects for damage.

    • Soulknife- Offensive and slightly more rogue based; focuses on attacking stats, chi shield, and SP regeneration



    Bannished Rogue -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/12/2023 21:45:49)

    quote:

    If we're focusing on existing gear and not hypotheticals, it must be stated that no-drops are not class armors, and they're not meant to be. Therefore, it's not a GBI that they don't have as many skills - They're not missing something they were not meant to have in the first place.

    I invoke the statements I made earlier:
    quote:


    Post #3- I believe thematically it would make the most sense to provide that melee in the base no-drop armor instead of a pure human no drop class armor.
    Post #7- Since being a pure human is the only option that doesn't regard a "'sub'race", it would also make sense for it to not operate exactly like the other subraces.
    Or simply put that is not at all what I am saying based on previous statements.

    quote:

    No drop gear could definitely use a pass, both due to its own issues and powercreep over time, but it's not being balanced relative to class or subrace armors.

    My arguement is that is SHOULD be, otherwise in the immediate sense, I dont see how pure human can be balanced to the subraces..


    quote:

    Supposing, as you claim, the no-drop is the "pure human" subrace class armour, one would expect the subrace-exclusive armours to replace it. Instead, they are allocated to the temporary slot. It's dubious to claim the armour should be retained for lore-related reasons, as gameplay and lore don't always align.

    The basis of your interpretation of what I'm saying is initially wrong, therefore the outcome of your assessment misses the mark. I again invoke a previously mentioned statement:
    quote:

    Post #7- since vampire, werewolf, werepyre, dracopyre, and neko are all just subraces, it stands to reason why you wouldn't lose your base no drop thematically.

    Or simply put, a "pure" human isnt and cannot logically be a "sub"race. When the player becomes a vampire, werewolf, etc., the race is designated as "human" First followed by the designation of the infliction. Regardless of which infliction you swap from, human is still at the base and is maintained.

    quote:

    Hypothetically, let's assume you're right - that the no-drop does represent the human subrace armour. .....The sole exception is Insightful AoA, but the number of compressed skills are handwaved and the armour does provide at least one skill.

    Again, it is illogical to say that a "pure" human is a subrace, as previously mentioned.
    Additionally, good to know; as previously mentioned, it isn't my intent nor proposal that the base no drop, gain skills. However the versatility and melee potential is not balanced. The compression and melee potential of the subrace armors far outclasses the melee potential of the base no drop. Perhaps I am not explaining the core issue clear enough.

    quote:

    NB: I think you also may have misunderstood how %Melee works. .... This is another reason why your argument just doesn't make sense. You're basing lost value on *owning* the items/compressed skills etc. rather than *using* them.

    Idk what "NB" stands for but..I will admit that my knoweldge regarding melee calculations and understanding is limited and perhaps I have been focusing on the wrong thing. Let me explain in the simplest way I can fathom. Compare the vampire class armor and the werewolf class armor. Now remove all of the werewolf class armors skills and make it not a class armor with only the passive effect of what used to be its class skill 7 Lycan Vigor as its MC effect. Would that be properly balanced to the Vampire armor? Perhaps my assessment regarding the imbalance of melee should be more focused on the passives of the subraces and/or toggle effects.
    It maybe balanced based on comparison to a standard armor, but not to the armors it should be being compared to.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/13/2023 5:31:48)

    @Bannished Rogue:
    quote:

    The basis of your interpretation of what I'm saying is initially wrong, therefore the outcome of your assessment misses the mark. I again invoke a previously mentioned statement:

    I'm afraid not. In my last post, I stated "It's dubious to claim the armour should be retained for lore-related reasons, as gameplay and lore don't always align". For example, canonically the chosen is entirely unable to wield the cold, yet in gameplay we are able to apply it as a status. This disconnect between lore and gameplay has consequences.

    You're arguing that pure humans are missing potential %Melee because they lack access to skills. Now, you could absolutely claim:
    quote:

    Or simply put, a "pure" human isnt and cannot logically be a "sub"race. When the player becomes a vampire, werewolf, etc., the race is designated as "human" First followed by the designation of the infliction. Regardless of which infliction you swap from, human is still at the base and is maintained.

    But, this is a lore-based justification to explain why no-drops should work like that. But...
  • There's no evidence to support your assumption. You're arguing why it should work like this rather than why it does. @Lorekeeper has already identified that this assumption is incorrect. You could choose to argue otherwise, but that wouldn't be an an issue of GBI since it doesn't directly relate to gameplay
  • It's a dubious explanation even then. I could claim that, because human is the main race for all parties, every subrace should retain access to the skills you propose humans are missing. There's no evidence to support this justification either, but it's no less parsimonious than yours. It even relies on the same core assumption, that human works differently to the subraces.

    More importantly though, this isn't how Game Balance works. The very foundation of your argument is based on an unofficial (and incorrect) lore-based assumption to justify adding skills to the no-drops through "lost %Melee". That's not how it works. Answering your question:
    quote:

    Let me explain in the simplest way I can fathom. Compare the vampire class armor and the werewolf class armor. Now remove all of the werewolf class armors skills and make it not a class armor with only the passive effect of what used to be its class skill 7 Lycan Vigor as its MC effect. Would that be properly balanced to the Vampire armor? Perhaps my assessment regarding the imbalance of melee should be more focused on the passives of the subraces and/or toggle effects.

    Yes, it would be properly balanced. It's certainly not fair; Werewolves would undoubtedly feel short-changed. And it's less versatile too. But it's not unbalanced. For vampires, the Mastercraft bonus would go into compression, with a handwave given to the number of skills compressed. In the other, the MC would be spent on the passive Level 7 ability. In the same way, Nulgath and War's Legacy are both balanced, even despite the latter having three different skills and the former only dealing *1.05 damage. In an ironic twist with these examples, Nulgath will actually deal more damage because it has a straight 5% bonus, whereas War has to spend an appropriate amount of its resources for the skills.

    AQ Game balance is a really complex topic. I suggest that you might want to have a look at some of the available unofficial guides that explain it.



    • Sapphire -> RE: Bannished Rogue's - Classy Subrace Suggestions and more (11/14/2023 12:02:38)

    Although I have always found it a bit odd that "upgrading" to a non human class provides the benefit of an additional no drop, and have always felt like there should be something for "humans" ...so I can see where Rogue is coming from. What he is suggesting is boosting the normal no drops instead of making some other 9th slot for players w/o a werewolf/werepyre/vampire/neko subrace. He is saying this boost is to offset the lack of a 9th armor slot.

    This would entail making all of these no drops much, much stronger. And while they need a revisit, this kind of power is likely considered far outside the bounds of current balance standards. Not only that, a rework of every possible no drop is a lot of work. Like, a LOT.

    If this were to even be addressed at all, it would just be simpler to make a human subrace armor that can be placed in the 9th slot I'd think. And even if that decision was made, would one automatically obtain it during character creation since you always start out as "human"? Would you need to prove that you're human? There'd have to be some questing/training involved, surely. Would these be meant for guardians only?

    Would a new human subrace armor power creep the other subraces, and thus, cause them to need a revisit? (I think they need small tweaks as it is anyway, but still)

    I do think Rogue has a small point, but not one that likely is something of great significance and certainly not one that is a priority.


    This in some ways kind of goes back to building foundations of game play, which is/was an issue in the past. For example, new players see the class system and think it's a major aspect of the game. But with time, ultimately you outgrow them all and realize they didn't really matter. A return to each class and the remaking of them is a step in the right direction. (Just not moving quickly enough , but hopefully the stat revamp conclusion helps shape future planned updates to classes and we see a concerted effort at their redesigns)

    I do think the Darkovia et al based subrace creations should have paved the way for something for Humans at that time just to be consistent.


    Ultimately I don't see this as a GBI in the same way as most things. It's more of a "Game Issue" , leaving the balance aspect out.


    Thread moved as human "subrace" isn't a thing. Skills could potentially be explored and suggested.
    However the hostile tone going forwards will not be tolerated. This thread is currently under review, once completed it'll be unlocked.~Anim



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