Backlash and EleComp (Full Version)

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RobynJoanne -> Backlash and EleComp (7/25/2023 21:15:36)

Recently, the Retro Nightmare set was released, and the armor had a Backlash effect. Now, that's not noteworthy on its own, as it's the fourth Ice armor with Backlash that's been released, but it did have both Harm and Ice Backlash on it. Furthermore, the Ice Backlash originally gained EleComp, which has been removed. The reasoning is as follows:
quote:


Kamui: Yeah, I initially put EleComp on the Ice Backlash because I was misremembering how it had been applied on prior things. The fact Backlash already scales based on the damage you take means it would double-dip if it also got EleComp, so the EleComp to the Ice Backlash will be removed shortly. However, the EleComp on the "Blocklash" will remain, since that does not scale with the damage you take.


EleComp is a free multiplier applied to something's power or cost due to being elementally suboptimal in some way. A core assumption in AQ is that one defends against a monster's base element and attacks the monster with the opposite element. One can think of EleComp as either a boost to compensate for putting oneself at risk of taking a lot of damage for attacking with the right element but not defending against the monster's base element or as a boost to compensate for attacking with a wrong element while defending against the monster's base element. Both are true, but I actually want to know which is the scenario that is assumed. This is because they actually have opposite assumptions: the former assumes the player is doing the opposite of the defense component of the core assumption while the latter assumes the player is doing the opposite of the offense component of the core assumption. The nature of the EleComp calculation that involves taking into account solely an item's elemental defenses and MRM makes me think the former's correct. If it were the latter case, EleComp could be as simple as using the assumed monster resist spread and dividing 130 by the effect's base resist (i.e. 130/70=1.857 for the same element as monster's base element, 115/70=1.643 for allied elements, 100/70=1.429 for neutral elements, 85/70=1.214 for poorly related elements, and 70/70=1 for the opposite element. That's clearly not what happens and is arguably fairer that way. We all know that most people don't use EleComp while defending against the proper element; they use it to attack with the proper element. The current system also provides a bit of compensation for attacking with the element opposite the monster's base element, which I prefer since I believe there should be something for locking something to an element even if it's usually the optimal one.

That's a lot of words on something that's not even the subject of this post, so I'll get back on topic. Currently, Retro Nightmare defends against Ice and Backlashes for Ice but does not get compensated for it because the effect itself scales with damage intake. There is an implicit assumption here: the player will not actually use Retro Nightmare against Ice monsters. Backlash damage is absolutely maximized when fighting Fire monsters since they will both deal more damage against the armor, causing Backlash's baseline damage to be greater, and take more from Ice damage in general. Inversely, Backlash damage is minimized when fighting Ice monsters since they will both deal less damage, causing Backlash's baseline damage to be lesser, and take less damage from Ice. This is the same assumption that I propose EleComp uses. So, shouldn't Backlash get EleComp? It's a dilemma to which I have a few possible solutions, each with their own pros and cons.

1) Elemental Backlash should get EleComp.
Pro: Attaches the proper assumption and compensation to the effect.
Con: Double-dipping as Kamui explained and does not actually fix the problem of rewarding play that is the inverse of core assumptions (if anything, a multiplier only increases the reward).
2) Elemental Backlash should EleSeek or follow weapon element.
Pro: Rewards both normal and inverse defensive play equally and uses the standard assumption for armors and shields where they only lose EleComp when able to do damage of any element.
Con: Makes Backlash even stronger/more versatile and also further rewards inverse defensive play.
3) Delete Elemental Backlash from armors/shields and make them all Harm.
Pro: Rewards both normal and inverse defensive play equally without majorly strengthening certain Backlash options over others.
Con: Still rewards inverse defensive play even if less so.
4) Normalize Elemental Backlash (i.e. divide damage by monster resist).
Pro: Similar to Harm Backlash but has a flavor benefit
Con: Same as Harm Backlash and has nebulous justification on an armor/shield (I don't believe I've ever seen elemental normalization on an armor/shield).
5) Leave it as is.
Pro: Frostwyrm has been doing the same thing for years, and it's viewed by some as the best Backlash armor.
Con: Disproportionately rewards inverse defensive play and disincentivizes normal defensive play.

Ultimately, however, none of these solutions solve the issue of Backlash rewarding inverse defensive play. That's just an unfortunate reality of an effect that scales off damage intake. It's fundamentally the inverse of normal AQ gameplay, and that comes with a whole host of GBI potential (sadly, exploration of such is beyond the scope of this post).



Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: Backlash and EleComp (7/25/2023 22:24:24)

Option 5 is, to my view, the only viable option for this particular issue with backlash as it is the only one that does not create even more issues in the wake of trying to solve one.

The issue of rewarding inverse defensive play cannot be solved with backlash by the fact that backlash itself exists at all and cannot be made to not exist anymore, it is yet another genie that cannot be shoved back inside its bottle.

Backlash however has other adjustments that can and should be made to it, however. But that's a topic for a different GBI. [&:]



Primate Murder -> RE: Backlash and EleComp (7/25/2023 23:51:58)

I do agree that giving an ice armor ice Backlash but not giving said backlash elecomp seems a little weird since the original assumption is that you're using an ice armor against ice monsters. If it doesn't gain elecomp, why even make it elemental in the first place?

I'm not sure which of RobinJoanne's solutions is better, but I absolutely agree that it is something that needs to be addressed before more elemental backlash armors/shields are made.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: Backlash and EleComp (7/26/2023 5:54:38)

The crucial component that guides my preferred solution to this (undoubtedly very tricky) problem is the fact that Backlash directly scales based on the amount of damage dealt to the player. @RobynJoanne eloquently and accurately describes above the ambiguity around whether Elecomp is meant to compensate for attacking with the wrong element or defending against the wrong element. However, regardless of which perspective is correct, the very name "Elemental Compensation" carries with it some implicit assumptions:

i). The bonus should only be applied in a situation where baseline assumptions are broken (i.e. you're not using the right element as above). Crucially though...
ii). The attack or effect in question can't already be internally compensated for breaking this baseline assumption

This latter point needs elaboration: Clearly, the player would benefit from higher damage if they broke defensive assumptions and used an elecomped Fire skill vs an enemy weak to Fire. However, outside of the player's attack, there's no mechanic internal to the skill that gives it an extra boost. It does more damage because the enemy is weak to that specific element. Any other bonus is external to the attack.

Backlash is different. With Backlash, you directly deal more damage to your foe if it deals more damage to you. The internal mechanics of the status are rewarding (or more accurately compensating) you for using the wrong element. With this in mind, Backlash inherently violates the implicit assumption attached to Elecomp through its very name. By basing your output on incoming damage, you're already baking in elecomp.

By viewing elemental Backlash from this alternative perspective, we shed light on just how incredibly overpowered it is. I recently broke down how Elecomp is calculated. A key step in that process is calculating modifiers based on the damage dealt and taken from all 8 elements, before selecting the minimum resulting value as the baseline for Elecomp. It's important to note that Backlash does not do this. If the player has 42% resistance and incoming player damage is based on intake at 42% melee, the player can realistically expect to take 3 times as much damage as would be expected, passing on the same modifier to backlash. This is far in excess of any possible value for elecomp (caps out at around 1.85). [NB: On the other hand, fighting Fire vs Fire, you might notice the opposite is true since you get standard expected intake but then modify the output based on Fire resistance! Think of it this way, if [Incoming Elemental Resistance] / [Best Resistance] >= 1.85, backlash is OP].

This isn't the only problem with Backlash. For example, it technically functions as a HP cost (pay HP to deal damage based on intake). Damage scaling effects are also notoriously problematic (e.g., Alchemical Unity) more generally. Backlash as a whole needs a major rework as a status. With that said, I do have one solution to elemental backlash not yet discussed. It essentially takes the form of a more intense normalisation:

Step #1: Record the damage dealt to the player via monster attack
Step #2: Modify the record value by *[Player Resistance of Backlash Element]/[Player Resistance of Incoming Damage]
Step #3: Then apply standard elecomp

This would need to be part of a wider rework to the status as mentioned. In the meantime, though, I at minimum favour option 5, and prefer option 3. Elemental backlash is riddled with problems, but at the very least we shouldn't be giving it Elecomp when compensation is already baked in.



Corvid -> RE: Backlash and EleComp (7/26/2023 21:03:17)

Sounds like adding elecomp to backlash ended up being quite a nightmare.



Sapphire -> RE: Backlash and EleComp (7/29/2023 11:07:32)

There are more issues to consider here that have not been discussed and whether anyone realizes it or not, or feels like it shouldn't be an issue, I guarantee you it's a major considering factor.

I own 5 doomlight sets. Many own at least 1, with several players owning multiples if not outright all of them. While backlash as a status I have always felt like was coded as likely very OP, the thing Chaotic mentioned alluded to something. The 42% resistance example he gave is actually the most optimal playstyle. You're better off ensuring your resistance is 39-42% (the range doomlights have 3 separate elements to) rather than playing "efficiently" ie 13% resistance. The HP's provided by 250 END are more than enough to compensate and are far worth the more than 3x damage intake due to how backlash is calculated. As a result, elecomp isn't needed. YOU control backlash amount simply by deciding to choose your own elemental mod.


So maybe backlash status does need some type of clawback or normalization.

However, now to the issue. You cannot make ultra-premium items with effects and have them cost quite a lot of real-life money and then later decide the original code of the status needs adjusting and then have players feel like their money spent was stolen and not appreciated. This matters, and it matters in such a major way that at this point, it has to be the main considering factor when looking at backlash as a whole .

The topic was elecomp on backlash but backlash as a whole needs to be a part of the greater discussion, so it's not really off topic. The status in general and how it works is a considering factor.

At the end of the day, backlash likely needs to be looked at, likely shouldn't be looked at due to said genie out of the box, and it should not have elecomp due to the player's ability to manipulate backlash on his/her own.

But elemental backlash should most certainly be available. It just shouldn't have elecomp.

#5 Leave it as is is the best path forward. Players will want more elemental backlash options, and that design space should remain open.



RobynJoanne -> RE: Backlash and EleComp (7/29/2023 12:19:06)

Please keep discussions about Doomlight and other sources of Backlash out of this thread. As noted in the first post, there are other points that can be discussed about Backlash as a status, but the scope of this thread is solely on Backlash and its relation to EleComp (thus, the discussion pertains only to elemental Backlash on armors/shields). There can be other GBI threads about Backlash in general.



Sapphire -> RE: Backlash and EleComp (7/31/2023 12:31:26)

I feel it's a related issue. ~Snipped a little of the tone.

"The topic was elecomp on backlash but backlash as a whole needs to be a part of the greater discussion,"
I think you summed it up well in your post here. For now I'd say let's keep the discussion focussed on the initial GBI topic of; if elemental backlash should receive ele comp. If you'd like to have a wider discussion that encompasses backlash as a whole please feel welcome to make a new thread. ~Anim



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