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Sapphire -> RE: Lean and Build imbalances along with related concerns (11/8/2023 11:21:34)
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quote:
I acknowledge that Beasts and CHA are being worked on but I feel the need to highlight it. Some things I can't really touch on with my limited knowledge: CHA weapons need to be removed or reworked to use ferocious/CHA lucky strikes and CHA skills should probably be clawed back in power somewhat using a new formula.
I think that CHA weapons should move forward in item creation, but there needs to be a new standard that applies to everything that Replaces normalized stats. This idea that you just stop making CHA weapons or delete the idea altogether etc etc etc is the absolute worst thing to do. You essentially leave an existing problem alone , not address it, but then move forward as of those items never existed. Instead, you move forward with the design space but you implement better balance standards to keep it in check.
This should apply to anything and everything. Weapons, skills, armors, spells, etc etc etc etc. It should apply to CHA, END, LUCK, and even if there's some sort of mainstat to mainstat replacement idea (not sure there's a case usage here, just saying)
The idea here is the base power gets a 10, 15, 20% power hit (whatever is deemed necessary) right off the top anytime CHA/END/LUK replaces a mainstat in any part of the normal equation, whether it's damage stats, lucky strikes (like with ferocious trikes), and even perhaps if Luk is replaced with something else in the minor roll (like psycho fiend weapon)
In addition, you replace the Dex part of the old CHA weapon BTH formula with "highest of mainstat" just like the plan with pets.
This change ensures by replacing mainstat with a secondary, it will *never* be optimal. In addition to gaining a flat redutuon to power for mainstat replacement, the BTH formula also further reduces damage for 0 mainstat players. These players will take a massive hit to weapon damage and be forced to rely almost exc;lusively on pets and guests. That should be the penalty/trade off. The result is if a player wants to try and use a secondary a main, then fine, but you wont come close to do the same damage as a mainstat in terms of player damage, and your pet will also take a BTH hit. Its doable, but you're going to be climbing an uphill battle. It's no different than other situations. These 0 main stat players are sacrificing damage and BTH for defense, in most all situations. It's End > mainstat in their build decision. This, IMO, is the best and most sensible path forward.
Also, I think luck needs decoupled from base assumptions for damage, accuracy, and blocking. The damage loss from lucky strikes should be rolled back into mainstat to keep the damage model the same, then move the 5 bth to main stats and remove the blocking help completely (adjust monster bth down by 5 to offset this.) Then what you have is 3 secondaries that serve their own roll individually and separate from mainstat. I would also double the rate of base lucky strikes , but cut the damage in half. So you get 20% rate at half lucky strike damage. Then lucky strikes is less powerful in terms of damage output in single applications, but goes unchanged over time. Then give Guests luck-based lucky strikes, reduce base rate and hypercrit increase items by half (offsetting the change) and leave +lucky strike damage items 100% alone. (nerf to lucky strike damage) But lucky strikes will then be in addition to damage models and not included within it, carving out a role for luck a bit better. Dont give luck accuracy and blocking bonuses. Give luck actual luck based style bonuses. I would also reconfigure initiative to re-ignite luck's prowess on initiative. Maybe halving the power of the 3 mainstats each, and rolling that amount back into luck. Luck should not be assisting as little as it does currently. Makes absolutely zero sense.
As for the lean issue, if it can be addressed globally then cool, make some changes. But if not, it's an impossible issue to address. I think the MUCH greater issue is the mistake that was made to make bows do 100% melee. Killing off the neutral lean and the weapon special reduced variety and it , IMO, has only served to push min-maxing with the players. I want to see it revitalized and given item support. (armors and miscs, and weapons with bonuses to weapon special damage) I actually think bows need to be 90% melee and the FD warrior lean should also be 90% melee. I also think SP upkeep guests should be treated differently than MP upkeep guests. It's the only way to truly come up with balance for guests. Lucky Beast mage vs Full defensive Beast Ranger vs Beast Warrior should, in theory, be equal in damage over 20 turns just like non beast builds are balanced. yet, they're not, with FDBR outclassing them all by a lot. Makes no sense.
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