RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (Full Version)

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Ninjaty -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/16/2024 19:11:21)

quote:

Leaving bugged items stronger than they should be undermines the mathematical standards the game is built upon.

quote:

Feelings are inconsequential to balance.


I would like to provide the following counterpoint:
quote:

Source: =AQ= On Balance (https://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22402834)
  • There is no design policy for pursuing perfect mathematical balance at the expense of fun.

    • According to that quote, there is some leeway to having feelings overrule perfect mathematical balance.

    I don't have a horse in this particular race as the '23 gifts didn't really fit any of my characters. I just felt it necessary to point out that in cases where balance directly contradicts fun, according to the staff, there could be made some exception to the standard, or be made some sort of compromise, based on player feedback. I don't claim to know what such an exception or compromise would look like, but at least the possibility exists.



    Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/16/2024 20:12:05)

    Even though I don't expect to use most of the set it would be nice if effects are reconsidered. Even if now working as designed the option for more power should not be ignored.



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/16/2024 22:15:44)

    I take back everything good I said about the Frostval giftbox set. While I also currently do not have any characters that fits the set's playstyle, I think it is still important to argue for this.

    The bugfixes were done in a timely manner, this is good. HOWEVER, they were not done properly. Simply fixing the numbers to be the correct value cannot be the only step taken in bug fixes. It is also extremely important to take into account how the end product will be like as well as the feedback of players. When you cut the power of an entire set by half, especially when it's one of the most anticipated releases of the year, this is a very, very bad look for the game either way you look at it.

    Now, I'm not saying put back the original values or give us free power, instead I am suggesting to let us keep ~30% more of what the original values were and in exchange, we pay for this increase in power through different means (MRM, SP, HP, damage etc).

    I made a video recently talking about the changes to the set, while I can't link it here due to the rules, and even if you do not wish to watch it, then at the very least look at the numerous comments not just by veteran players but also by many casual players not part of the community on how they feel regarding these changes. On top of that, I'm sure there's also other discussions elsewhere like AEO and my own Discord server where numerous players have voiced their dissatisfaction over how this was handled. I hope the staff will relook at this set and do the right thing



    Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/16/2024 23:57:17)

    I'm sorry for the inconvenience of having to wait for so many bug fixes and any bother it may have caused. If it's any reassurance, the cause for the testing errors has been discussed for the purpose of avoiding it in the future. However, this was not so simple a matter as cutting the power of the set in half, as that omits the essential context that some parts of it had double the power that they did through accident. We cannot consider that an item is suddenly not good because it's not accidentally at double power anymore, and its base state must primarily be considered by its own merits. If balance allows any of the items to pay more of a cost or valid disadvantage for some increased output, it's possible to make a consideration. I can raise this topic internally.

    However, please bear in mind that, should some of the items already be paying as much value as they can for an effect, we can't abstain from fixing them. While the bugs should not have happened, we cannot set a precedent whereby any time an error that adds power occurs, it cannot be fully fixed and a major spike in powercreep is mandatory. Some creep is normal and desirable for the development cycle of a live RPG, but it must be a deliberate and controlled curve -- Not something liable to happen at random as a required reaction to human error. Just because there can be more power doesn't mean that having it right now would be good for the game -- Examples of why can be found by reading past the initial lines of the thread explaining balance.



    Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 0:50:43)

    From the perspectives of those who try items in an unintended state, the corrections will always be labeled nerfs despite staff commentary of how they're actually bug fixes. If people like the items it's up to the devs to rethink their design. You all make things for our enjoyment so the voices of disapproval must hold more power. It doesn't matter how things are planned, the players will flock to the more powerful items. Just look at character pages. People use the strong options. I'm sorry to see one of the most anticipated sets end up in this sad state. Frostval sets used to be better.



    Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 1:24:54)

    While I addressed all of that in my prior post, it merits the question: What exactly is the sad state, when looking at how the set currently works? The wording implies that it's not just that it's not as strong anymore, but that its current state is bad or weak. That approaches more actionable feedback, as we recognize that an item doesn't need to be bugged to have double the power it pays for in order to be good.


    Since it's what exactly an item does that makes it good, and being overpowered isn't the minimum bar for an item being good: What about the set is bad in and of itself, or compared to prior sets? That would be exactly the kind of feedback we need for this kind of situation.



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 1:44:42)

    This is just my opinion but I think for this set specifically, it's not so much the effects but really just the numbers. Correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm assuming this set is targeted at FD warriors, a playstyle that was supposed to be established in the upcoming stat revamp. What exactly is so good about this set that would entice me to try it out over the existing playstyles?

    We have plenty of stronger options for other playstyles albeit they don't do all 3 of those statuses at once. We have stronger options for elevuln, choke and burn individually. Is it worth using a set that combines all 3 into 1 with only a mediocre power or is it better to just carry 3 individual sets that do them very well? Compression is certainly nice but not when it comes at the expense of sacrificing too much power (e.g ultimate dragon scythe of elements). 3 mediocre skills combined into 1 armor doesn't make it great, it averages out to be mediocre. However, if you have 1 or 2 really good skills (numbers wise) and combine it with another mediocre skill, then overall you'll have something fantastic.

    You mention about looking at the set in its base state to consider its merits, bugs aside. This base state that we have now, isn't the worst we've got tbh, but it's far from the best. But that's not enough for a set as iconic as the frostval giftboxes. People expect alot more for key sets like that. You can make average items all year round but some key releases, people would have higher expectations out of them (frostval giftboxes, donation sets, crossover ggb etc.). I think that's where the problem is, the expectarions for a set like this isn't average, that's not enough, it should be fantastic.

    I'm not saying it needs to be overpowered but perhaps staff can use these key releases every year where players naturally have higher expectations to push the envelope for a slow powercreep rather than some random release in the middle of the year where the expectations aren't as high.



    Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 1:48:34)

    When I go to buy something and use my credit card/debit card, the charge comes out immediately. When I go to return the item, I'm told the amount will take 5-7 business days to get my refund depending on the bank.


    So the question remains, when's Trickster armor's bugs being fixed? I'm told the bug fixes on that will make the item better. (aside from the melee vs ranged debate, but the catering on a frostval set is a bad idea and topic for another day..likely next year)



    Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 2:00:57)

    quote:

    parts of it had double the power that they did through accident


    This gets focus yet weak items are delayed buffs without fail.

    quote:

    What about the set is bad in and of itself, or compared to prior sets?


    Values need reconsideration. Put more power to the effects while losing it in attack or mrm. If you reduce target power with choke you can lose defenses. I prefer my idea of losing all attack power to put that into the burn. It would be the first 0 damage armor. The spell hits 0 so why not try it? All the power comes from the burn which should stack fast. Maybe have ice backlash too. We're literally a walking mountain.



    Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 2:24:37)

    We can't very well delay fixing a bugged item until all underpowered items are fixed. Furthermore, bugs that make items underpowered aren't delayed without fail. That is not and has never been the case.

    Even in this same set, the spell originally had a bug that didn't allow it to work with on-spell effect, and that has been corrected. On the same release, Trickster's Hide not properly working with 100 proc weapons and being reported to overpay was checked out immediately. Going back further, Fallen Angel's Vindicator had its STR-based boost fixed. Wishweaver's drain not applying, and Wingweaver's shield locking prematurely. The list goes on, and so one can rest assured that the notion that would have been disproven with one exception isn't at all an actual policy.

    Please read the thread I linked, as the section titled Broken Items explains the actual situation at play.

    So as one can plainly see, it's not that we delay items that need buffs. All of these fixes that resulted in buffs were not delayed. It's when something needs to be redesigned entirely or has already been revisited that taking another look at it is difficult to make time for. Especially when Ianthe has been exceedingly busy working on the preparatory stages of the stat revamp, meaning that Kamui has even less time than usual to redo old items due to handling more of the new ones.

    Lastly, spells and weapons/weapon attacks do not follow the same rules or limits on how much %melee in damage can be sacrificed for a status effect. As explained above, we can't take a massive jump in powercreep in response to something having been bugged: Completely removing the limits would be a worst case scenario by rendering all prior status gear totally obsolete. Having to take such a measure every time a bug fix results in a nerf would be unsustainable. We can't treat "It's not the highest status infliction power imaginable" as an indicator of an item being bad.



    Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 2:42:36)

    Don't hide behind the excuse of items being too strong not allowing future content. We know this is false. Useful items get released often. Let the reaction to change speak for itself. I looked at that post linked but I disagree with it to the point I've chosen to ignore its message. The players know more of what they want.

    quote:

    There is no such thing as a design policy for nerfing items into uselessness, or making something cease to be fun as a requirement for coming up with other fun items.


    Since writing this did it get forgotten? Right now we had people enjoy the warden set. It was fun. Then the big bad bug fix magically appeared. Fun is absolutely forsaken for balance yet the accepted metas remain relevant for years despite their power. How many times will people need to say don't do something for the message to be heard? If the set was for my build I'd be even more upset. Don't fix what isn't broken from the perspective of those who use it.

    Look the complaining isn't fun and while I disagree with a lot of your views it's not like I want absurdly broken gear. This set's power was not apparent at the release and most saw no issue. That should remove any doubt for the devs. An accident sure but a helpful one. Warden could have been the new FD ice option for all. It's now lost that.

    No no no. Let me be very clear here. Whether you like it or not, I have been informed that Lorekeeper consults with the AQ Team & Hollow before releasing statements like the above as linked. That statement is fully representative of how Ianthe, Kamui & Hollow view game balance. There is no undermining of player opinions the post, but a statement of the AQ Team's opinion of Game Balance. You are free to disagree with it, but do not seek to misrepresent the Team's Statement as undermining player opinion. Furthermore, stop trying to speak on behalf of 'Majority of players'. Ball Lightning in Diablo 4 was a bug that everyone enjoyed. Doesn't change the fact that it was a bug and that will be hit with the nerfbar in the upcoming season. Same logic applies here ~Ward



    Ward_Point -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 5:07:24)

    Essentially, all I'm reading that 'The Armour is now terrible because the Status that it inflicts is no longer the most powerful in its category. It should be special because it's a Frostval Giftbox Item'

    I'd like to point out the armour has a lot of synergies within itself. A Fully Defensive Armour with Choke, EleVuln & Burn is extremely synergistic, with the option to inflict a Burn & Vuln (Fire) while sitting in an Ice Armour is intuitive for the general playerbase and very suitable for any FD Beastmaster who looks to stack either Burn or Vuln. The Vuln causes foes to take more damage from the associated Burn. This is intuitive and synergistic to my own very mediocre strategies of 'Sitting in an element appropriate armour & hitting stuff with an Element Appropriate Weapon/Spell/Pet'. It's definitely getting into my FDBR's active inventory.

    What else is worth using for FD-Ice armours?

    Bard of War is Premium.
    Knightmare is a 2022 Frostval Item
    Reigndragon is a Frostval Seasonal item that buffs Companion damage.
    Neko is king. There's little point in comparing to Neko, of all things.
    Frostval Past? We're digging the bottom of the barrel now.

    I'm engaging in soome whataboutism now, but the point is that Winter Warden works well with itself.
    The most active players on the forum tend to Min/Max, either due to some form of Status-Eating, or perhaps just for the laughs. Most of the playerbase will look at this and go 'Hey, this is decent and better than most of the Ice FD armours available.'.

    In more produtive considerations, does one really want Winter Warden to specialise in Choke? FO Armours get more out of CHOK than FD (Simply put, a 20% choke on 0.8 incoming is 0.64, resulting in decreasing damage by 0.16 Melee) on the other hand, an FO Armour would take 1x damage with a 20% choke inflicted instead of 1.25x. If I had to pick something to min/max in, I'd lose the Choke entirely and rather have more Burn on an FD armour.



    Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 5:31:19)

    I'm giving it more of a chance despite my complaining. It's a triple compression armor offering elevuln, burn and choke. Threw nemesis crest to the mix and the heal is quite powerful while the burn with it adds up. Choke feels unnecessary as I'm never noticing the benefit so if it was removed to reduce sp cost from the first skill it might be for the best. The elevuln helps cometoid keep up my resources and even went with the nemesis spell for the imbue. Still need to try more but it's nicer than I thought. This is weird. It's an FD armor with potential for more power than FO if you stack elevuln enough. I don't know how to feel anymore. Been hating now I like it?



    Ogma -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 6:44:00)

    I went to fight against a fire monster with the full set (weapon, shield, armor, pet, misc), I fought against a Demon Knight lvl 150. My build is 250 INT/CHA/LUK. In the fight I decided to activate shield's toggle, armor's choke and burn toggle, weapon's toggle and used spells twice in the start (since the standard I know, the 10 turns thing for mage is to use 2 spells per fight). After the spells I used the armor's elm vuln skill which helps the burn's damage, then I attacked normally for the rest of the battle. I started the fight with full SP, I had HP barrier from Necromancer class, in the end my HP was around 800, half of my MP, and my SP was empty well before the end of the fight.

    One thing for sure, the whole set guzzle SP fast. But it still was able to get the job done against the opposite element despite not having the elemental resist for it. It will do even better against ice mobs using PMO misc. Though I dunno if I have the equipment to fully support this set, I avoided FD like a plague in the past. In my mind, FD slows grinding, I can find it useful only if I wanted to do some difficult quest or boss.



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 8:38:04)

    Personally I dont have a strong preference over whether we should pay more to get a stronger choke or burn effect. I think both has its merits and I'd be fine with it going either way, ideally both if possible if there's a split in player opinions, that way no one gets left out. Also, I would like to add on that this whole thing of relooking at the set should go beyond the armor. The other items that got axed should get some love too



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 9:44:23)

    Weapons, misc and spell were changed

    Fact check time!

    Weapon: Bugfixed. Was inflicting status at 2x the intended power.
    Spell: Bugfixed. Added 2, 0 Damage hits so that the spell can still proc On-Hit effects. Choke and Burn values remained the same
    Misc: Bugfixed, FSB removed. Miscs being included into FSB doesn't typically happen outside of the Winter Donation.

    Check your facts, boys and girls ~ Ward



    Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 11:06:24)

    quote:

    Don't hide behind the excuse of items being too strong not allowing future content. We know this is false.


    Please read what I actually posted.

    quote:

    Since writing this did it get forgotten?


    It has been well established that the set is not useless.

    I asked specifically how the set is bad in hopes of finding middle ground and a way to fix it. Insults, twisting my words, and attacks on things I haven't said, are meeting an attempt at benefit of the doubt with hostility. Please answer constructively.




    Let's have this line be a breaking point in the discussion, folks. Now that the set is being tried out more, feedback about its actual function shows it to be good. That's a huge relief. However, rest assured that we've still discussed the testing issue to try to avoid any repeat incidents.



    J9408 -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 11:15:58)

    I had trouble fighting against Fenris from one of the Devourer quest. Winter Warden is the primary reason why I manage to win, the choke and fire burn's is incredibly useful. I think the armor is fantastic, one of the best out there.

    I hope the staff design more armor's similar to it. I don't mind sacrificing large power for status inflictions, it fits the FD style very well.



    dizzle -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 14:08:57)

    +1 to paying more resources for the original Choke/burn power.
    quote:

    The choke is the least important part of the armour and returning the power at the expense of further resources is significantly worse for a defensive playstyle.

    quote:

    In more produtive considerations, does one really want Winter Warden to specialise in Choke? FO Armours get more out of CHOK than FD (Simply put, a 20% choke on 0.8 incoming is 0.64, resulting in decreasing damage by 0.16 Melee) on the other hand, an FO Armour would take 1x damage with a 20% choke inflicted instead of 1.25x. If I had to pick something to min/max in, I'd lose the Choke entirely and rather have more Burn on an FD armour.

    A very strange take. Essentially the argument is that because FO lean is more efficient with choke power, the choke in a *Fully* Defensive lean is not important? Don't tunnel vision on calculations. That x.64 incoming damage is a whole lot lower than the x1 incoming damage. Unless you’re abusing baby egg and defensive misc strat to mitigate damage intake completely, choke + FD is a very strong combo.

    Post snipped. Please see pm's. ~Anim



    Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/17/2024 15:47:57)

    I think to a degree, most everyone has made some valid points but at the same time, there have been lots of assumptions, mischaracterizations, and in some cases false info.

    Look, if the stuff had a single bug we probably wouldn't be here going through this nonsense. But in this case, let's step back and take a look at the bigger picture as a whole.

    The Trickster Set was released as a catered set. This already IMO creates a feels bad for many. But it's also bugged to be catered to the wrong group. And it still hasn't been addressed. The melee lock instead of ranged as well as the berserk inflict issue should have been fixed upon release. It's still there in limbo with people clamoring for it to be a melee or ranged lock, but staff are standing firm that it is meant for Rangers...yet it's still not doing Ranged damage.

    If we pretend 1/3rd of the players all play Warrior/Ranger/Mage each, catering a set for the Frostval set literally cuts out up to 2/3rds of the game. (I get players can have multiple chars etc etc but I digress)

    Then we go to the giftbox set which are the yearly guardian gift items. One of, if not the most exciting releases of the year. While less catered than Trickster, it's still making a play on this Warrior Lean idea that isn't really announced as a future thing in any official capacity, which is another issue altogether IMO, but the writing is on the wall so there we have it. Now a FD set is not going to be as popular as FO. People are enamored with big numbers and so when a FD set gets released and the initial gameplay was providing huge burn damage and pretty large-for-FD offensive numbers due to bugs, their excitement then goes way up. It's like you just opened up a gift and inside is that Laptop you always wanted. But then hours later the software auto-updated and features were removed, the performance slowed, and the battery life decreased with a note that said "Our bad"


    Look, people are human. Nobody expects perfection. But sometimes when a cluster-you-know-what happens, I think people start to ask why in the hackate does something like this happen? One bug is one thing, several is another.

    I personally don't expect staff to appease everyone and just add 2x power . I think it creates way more issues down the road . Staff isn't going to be able to match this stuff in overall power ever again, so new items get viewed as bad forevermore as a result. Monsters become more cake to beat than they already are, so then what? Buff them all to compensate for this one set? Buff the rest of the items in the game to match this stuff or everything gets veiwed as bad?

    Keeping the stuff as close to the intended design is preferable long term and people will just have to get over it.

    I just hope that staff can understand from a higher PoV that 2024 has started off terrible. Just make sure bugs are done before release. I dont know if that means starting earlier on design, or what. We have no clue as to the schedule that staff employs ...how much of their time is demanded from the top, or how much is literally up to the individual...but I suspect somewhere in there is likely where the foundational issue may lie. That's not for us to know, but I know one thing...it's certainly a reflection on decision-makers like any business. So hopefully some learnings can be put into application.


    To end, I would encourage the staff to consider two things moving forward:

    1. When nerfs occur, whether it's due to updated standards, from a bug fix, or other reigning in of certain unforeseen gameplay interactions...regardless of why..Please take into account :
    A. How long has the item been out? If it's been out a while and countless players are using the item, maybe in the process of the nerf something as compensation needs to be considered:
    Example: Multimaul, while intended for warriors, is actually used a lot of Mages for spells and by BEast Builds for Pets/guests. So ok, you feel a need to nerf multimaul by completely changing the idea...then you should be making new versions NOW for Mages (to effect spells) and Beast Builds (to effect pets/guests) due to the now 7 months of use. I could care less about who it was intended for
    B. Is the item premium? If it is still felt like the item needs a nerf, ask questions as to a more delicate path.
    Examples: The cutlass situation. It was rebalanced, but catered a bit to the reason players buy it. This was a good change.
    The backlash debate: This needs to be handled delicately if this occurs. A draconian measure will be bad for player retention.


    2. I am hearing now that Winter WArden Shield may change..... Please do not touch it, too. Ruining this item too will have me join the mob lol =P


    Mod Anim: Reminder to let's keep it friendly between all here and watch the tones please. Many thanks.
    Dev Anim: A few updates to items coming shortly here: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22414030



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/18/2024 20:28:45)

    quote:

    Now that the set is being tried out more, feedback about its actual function shows it to be good. That's a huge relief.

    There are still many dissatisfied players with the set, probably more now since the shield is getting touched as well. I don't think it's a bad set but like I said earlier about expectations, this is a Frostval giftbox set, it needs to be way better than just being "not bad". I hope the whole set gets relooked at next week. I don't think it needs massive changes, just a power and cost adjustment (pay more for more power)



    Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/18/2024 20:37:14)

    I honestly am fine with everything except the shield changes. It's not comparable to troposhield. Tropo fires upon a 3 element trigger and has a save on the player side. Winter warden fires on being hit, with save. It feels like there should be an assumed average HP cost per turn to help pay for the effect. They're just not comparable in function. Both being elevuln doesn't make it apples to apples.



    Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Gift Delivery Finale Guardian Gifts Are Opening Soon! (1/18/2024 20:58:51)

    Past few days I've started to doubt the complaints for the warden set. The burn is powerful, choke will always be useful and it has elevuln helping some other items you can use with it. It might be FD but the effects add up to make it better than FO if you use ice or fire.



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