END-scaled Healing (Full Version)

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CH4OT1C! -> END-scaled Healing (3/17/2024 21:19:52)

Now that the stat revamp has been completed, we can finally turn our attention towards itemisation issues. It has repeatedly been stressed that stats only provide a basic framework during battle, and that many of the major problems faced by AQ today really stem from items. It's why Mage is so powerful; INT is mathematically the weakest of the three main stats, but more than makes up for it through the unparalleled versatility of magic items. Put simply, items matter.

Multiple GBIs have recently been made, both by myself and others, around the problems associated with healing. It's no secret that healing items cause a huge range of issues, ranging from build imbalances to infinite resource loops. Many of the ideas presented within these threads offer valuable ways to potentially deal with these problems. However, after some careful consideration, I believe the problems generated by healing items require a more extreme solution.

Make healing items the exclusive domain of END. By this, I mean all Weapons, Spells, Skills, Pets, and Guests that offer scaled healing (whether it be HP, MP, and SP), should be scaled based on END. The notion of exclusively tying an item type to a support stat already has precedence; CHA is currently the exclusive domain of both Pets and Guests, bar notable exceptions that receive penalties for the privilege. END has been directly tied to healing since the early days of AQ (see spells like pumpkin patch for example). Yet, over time, this exclusivity has been degraded by the other stats eating into its domain. I am suggesting that we return to the former ways of healing being exclusively controlled by END. There are a number of reasons why this is a good idea:

  • There is little justification why any other stat should modify healing. END has always been a stat dedicated to HP and healing-related effects. It therefore makes far more sense to have healing items to scale on END than any other stat
  • By doing this, we resolve a key problem surrounding the build-related inequality of healing. It's no secret that Mages and Beastmasters have traditionally enjoyed a greater variety of healing related options. This was the central premise used to justify a recently accepted GBI that sought to curb Mage-related healing. Making sure all healing-related items scale against END further erodes that inequality, making sure only those with END (i.e. the stat meant to influence healing) receive the full benefit.
  • Another benefit is providing a crucial additional reason to invest in END. END is typically overlooked despite its clear power because extra HP often isn't useful. By comparison, LUK can be exploited through hypercritical and range of Lucky strike damage boosters, and CHA has the full might of pets and guests at its disposal. Reasserting the exclusive domain of END will help the stat to compete.

    These reasons are non-exhaustive, but serve to demonstrate the potential advantages of this approach. To properly implement this fix, I propose the following:
  • Ensure all new healing-related items solely scale on END. Regardless of item type.
  • Retroactively rescale old healing related effects on END. This needn't be done immediately or all at once, instead gradually phased in like HP costs
  • Ensure that hit-based healing effects now scale based on END too.
  • As this change constitutes a nerf to healing-related effects, the relative strength of potions should be reviewed. It's important to ensure that non-potion healing still remains worthwhile.
  • Conversion miscs would be subject to this change
  • Damage-scaled healing represents a grey area, but should be subject to a full review given their numerous problems (worthy of a GBI on their own).

    I fully recognise that the changes I suggest here are radical. However, I believe that they represent a necessary step towards resolving some of the biggest item-related issues currently faced by AQ.



    • Andlu -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 11:29:38)

    This is a radical change, as mentioned before, but I do feel like some of it makes no sense personally:


    END provides healing resistance, to increase healing, but ONLY to hit points. It does not affect SP or MP healing. So to make END be ENTIRELY responsible for SP and MP healing makes no sense on the staff's own standard, as they don't directly tie END to anything other than HP healing.

    I also personally dislike the whole idea of making guests (and pets) scale off of anything other than charisma, which it what was intended in the beginning. It makes more sense to at least tie a bit of END to the healing from pets and guests, but make ones that entirely off of non-CHA stats feels like it's pushing what the purpose of guests and pets were from the beginning, being a beastmaster-only thing, that can be used by other builds, but not as effectively.



    Sapphire -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 11:32:37)

    Healing at baseline should be equal between DEx, STR, and INT. This was the reason for the SC proposal, and I suspect, the adoption of that change.

    The secondaries offer a range of benefits that each of the three Archtypes can fully choose to train. In terms of healing, END provides the +12.5% to heal resist. Luck provides lucky striking to the heal. CHA provides pets and guests with healing modes.

    They're simply different from one another in terms of what they provide to healing, and don't necessarily have to be equal because they all also provide other things. You can combine any of these . END+CHA. LUK+CHA. END+LUK.

    I do think CHA-based healing is at an advantage via item support, but that doesn't create a balance issue. It's a matter of itemization, which you said yourself in discord said was the alternative. And it's the better alternative.

    Actually, the change to SC lean as well as berserk healing has opened new design space for healing that caters to each of the builds. I agree that that's the long road. But it's the best path. By a mile.

    Another GBI targeting CHA isn't the answer nor will it be in any capacity regardless of the issues here that are brought up. CHA has it's benefits. Just like Luck, and END.

    Ultimately, to reiterate the foundational disconnect in our arguments, Archtype equality in healing should be equal. But secondary distinctions can be obtained by all so there is no issue. You can't one one hand claim CHA isn't a mainstat (I agree), but then try and drum up a GBI comparing CHA to mainstat in terms of healing ability on the other hand. It's grasping at straws to find ways to nerf CHA. It's obvious.



    KhalJJ -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 12:25:29)

    I would generally agree with Andlu on these points.

    It very much feels a) unintuitive and b) inconsistent with previous changes, that END would affect MP/SP healing.

    Making END+CHA a requirement to fully utilise healing pets (for MP/SP) also feels like a major restriction, but I can see why it might make sense for HP.

    I'd also like to point out that from a player experience perspective, currently mage HP healing spells feel unusably weak (even INT-scaling ones) and if this were to become worse it would be strange.
    To spend your whole turn, plus x MP/SP to heal ~400HP feels terrible as is. Potions exist, and as a minimum healing spells should compete with these - otherwise why use them? Additionally, potions still need to be somewhat usable - any nerf to current healing amounts probably renders them not so.



    Aura Knight -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 12:37:27)

    HP heals depending only on END feels wasteful. With endurance offering more health it defeats the necessity for actual heals. What could happen already exists. Various heal spells/skills use different stats to not be restrictive. And sp recovery isn't in any state where it's difficult to maintain. Also endurance should have absolutely no effect on mp recovery.



    Corvid -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 12:39:38)

    I agree that END deserves a more exclusive role in healing related effects, but I disagree that current equipment should be revised to be END only.

    One concern is that END-exclusivity to any/all resource healing starts to push the pendulum too far so that END starts to become non optional. The second concern is this will make healing pets that are full power even without CHA, so this would step on CHA’s toes (in a similar way as if booster pets only used mainstats without any CHA)

    I’m inclined to focus on making future equipment that that leans on END, without END having a total monopoly.



    Sapphire -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 14:39:36)

    ^Or equipment that leans on each Main stat. They already made dodgeheal items and they have made on-hit heals to SP with nickelclad (HP too) and HP with trickster. The item support is coming and can continue.

    Also, Aura is 100000000000000% correct, and was a basis of argument I have a longstanding issue with. You don't need to heal as much when you've trained Endurance, so making all healing END-focused is silly.

    In fact, if you've trained END and you find yourself needing to heal, likely something is wrong. The issue at play with these END focused builds wanting better healing is with EO usage. END fuels EO, and so reducing one's HP's to gain SP is why one would even want to use any heals. Likely, just relying on your HP bar to survive isn't even an issue because the amount of monsters that would require doubling your HP bar is so utterly small it's not even a challenge. END isn't a required stat, anyway, so making all healing need a non required stat is also utterly silly. ENd is supposed to BOOST healing. It shouldn't require it. Anyway this is a play to find ways to nerf CHA, at the end of the day.Like the other posts, and ones to come.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 19:14:46)

    Before responding to the posts above, I feel it important to reiterate that I fully recognise the radical nature of my proposition. I wouldn't be suggesting it if I didn't think the ends justified the means. Moreover, contradictory to the assertion made by @Sapphire, this GBI does not " target" CHA. That is not to suggest Beastmasters won't disproportionately be affected; Beastmasters have for years enjoyed significant advantages in healing over two of the three main stats, so for obvious reasons will be hit harder. With that said, the changes proposed here affect all non-END healing. This includes both Mage Spells (INT) and Warrior/Ranger Skills (STR + DEX).

    First, in response to @Andlu: Your criticism effectively amounts to a difference in perspective. You argue that END only affects HP at the moment, and that it makes no sense for it to be tied to MP/SP healing. Yet, Pets and Guests exist that heal both MP and SP directly e.g., Fairy Godmother and Plushie Mort. Healing of an INT exclusive and build agnostic resource, exclusively tied to CHA. The reason this is currently acceptable? Because the heal comes from a Pet/Guest. I simply differ in my choice of emphasis; instead of focusing on the fact the item may be a pet/guest, I choose to focus on the fact said item heals. I further highlight that END was designed with healing in mind - to reiterate, Pumpkin Patch is a spell from 2007 which costs MP to cast and heals based on END. I'm simply suggesting that we return to this precedent in an effort to make things fairer by i) providing a specific stat upon which healing is based and ii) providing a reason for players to use END.

    @Sapphire: This post is not based upon your prior GBI, neither does it require its implementation to be worthy of discussion. Moreover, healing falls outside of the player turn model, so there's no direct connection to the mainstats which said model assumes (besides MP costing heals, which are again a problem this GBI is attempting to help resolve). On the basis of your personal definition regarding supporting stats, your argument further supports my intention to reemphasise END as the healing stat. Unfortunately, I can't really respond much more because I'm a little confused regarding the core of your counterargument. I agree CHA isn't a main stat, and this GBI doesn't rely on it being one.

    @KhalJJ: I think I responded to most of your concerns with the section to Andlu, but to reiterate it's simply a matter of perspective. I'm deliberately intending to reassert END as the healing stat, just as STR is the Melee weapon stat. There are obviously overlaps (and again see my response to Andlu for an example), both of which make a degree of sense. My point is simply to assert the multiple benefits of seeing things from this alternative perspective. Regarding potions: I agree, and a review of potions was one of the points made in my initial post.

    @Aura Knight: This is not a fix in isolation, and I've made no secret of my desire to make monsters stronger. Also see the end of this post.

    @Corvid: There could potentially be scope for leeway here, but as I'm sure you already know, my intention here is to reassert END as the stat for healing. Just as players like @Andlu don't desire lots of Pets/Guests to suddenly start scaling on other stats, the same would need to apply to END. Otherwise we further enshrine the problem we currently have.

    and finally, @Sapphire #2: see my response to Aura knight.


    In other news, after a conversation with @RobynJoanne I've now changed my mind and think that the conversion miscs ( Essence Orb, Pixel Ether, and Discount Mogloween Candy Bag) should also now scale on END as they essentially function as if they are quickcast skills in trading one resource to heal another. For consistency, I therefore include them above.



    Sapphire -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 19:29:08)

    Honestly, it would be better if END took a haircut on HP's and then as compensation, given a much better set of bonuses which would include even higher heal resist bonus. Instead of making heals require END, make heals even better WITH END...but disallow heals that come from pets and guests to gain END's bonus..so that it's only affected by heals that come from the player. I have always said why all this focus on healing via END when needing to heal isn't even needed? Healing is more needed with players who don't train END.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 19:37:19)

    In response to the above, a core component of my initial post highlights that item support is a crucial part of ensuring that a stat is worthwhile. This is currently impossible for END, given the other stats have directly encroached upon its territory. This thread is about giving that stolen ground back.



    Aura Knight -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/18/2024 20:13:37)

    Something useful to everyone should not be restricted to a stat most consider optional. The existing means of resource recovery are perfectly fine. Resource healing could even work without the inclusion of a stat offering benefits.

    I can't understand how you can say this idea won't hurt CHA builds if you suggest moving stats to endurance. Whether the points comes from charisma or luck (neither of which are worth losing) this will weaken existing builds and I may be somewhat casual with how I play but better healing isn't worth losses elsewhere.



    Sapphire -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/19/2024 7:15:31)

    Nothing was stolen. This is simply an issue because of END's newfound bonuses and lack of item support as a result of the newness. CHA based healing has a long head start. Making more items to support END based healing is preferential over requiring healing pets/guests to require 3 stats to work optimally. What you propose is targeting CHA, no matter how anyone wishes to spin it.



    Grace Xisthrith -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/19/2024 15:34:01)

    I think this would go poorly, but I kinda had fun thinking about the reprecussions of such a change, so here are my delusions
    Theoretical of how I would explain pets and guests if this was implemented:
    Pets scale with CHA, yeah
    Oh except when they heal, because you need END to heal
    Pets and guests scale the exact same way yeah
    Oh except when they heal
    Oh no they don't scale the same as pets they scale with part END part CHA
    Well no actually you don't get half power from END and half from CHA, you do ~35% damage with END and no CHA, 50% damage with CHA and no END, and 100% damage with END and CHA. It's because of the style bonus rework, so you need CHA to get more than 45% melee, but the healing damage doesn't scale with CHA, only the base damage, so you need END too for the full effect
    Boosters still scale half with mainstat half with CHA though, so that's easy
    Except that some of them scale 75 / 25 so just watch out for that, and a few scale 100 CHA 0 Mainstat
    Oh but the one healing booster (they'll release this soon I got a fax dw) you first need full Mainstat, because boosters scale half with mainstat, then you need CHA, because boosters scale half with CHA, but because it boosts healing, you still get half the value if you don't have END
    How I would explain why Gandolphin / Awe Armor / Necro is now meta for every END build regardless of INT training:
    So since all healing effects scale END, it doesn't matter than they take away your MP when you get damaged. Since MP healing scales with END, using a mana shield and then restoring your mana with a healing pet, which you don't need CHA for anymore, is optimal, since you can get it to high efficiency levels. It's better than Dragonlord's will because it doesn't actually cost you resources really, and MP heals 1.5x faster than HP, and because you can boost the spell the efficiency is better too, so you can get like 300 HP out of your 135 MP every turn at quickcast speed, so you essentially get 2-3x power out of FGM's MP heal compared to her HP heal. Same with Necro too, just a free 600 HP or so every fight as long as you trained END



    Ward_Point -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/19/2024 21:38:17)

    Reminder.

    GBI Posts are held to a higher standard than GD.

    Your post should make a point in a clear & concise manner, using paragraphing to assist in ease of reading.



    dizzle -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/20/2024 0:57:52)

    quote:

    There is little justification why any other stat should modify healing. END has always been a stat dedicated to HP and healing-related effects. It therefore makes far more sense to have healing items to scale on END than any other stat


    I take issue with this point for a couple reasons. Why is there no justification for any other stat to modify healing? It opens up more avenues for both item design and creativity from the players. The claim is that because “END has always been a stat dedicated to HP and healing-related effects” it should therefore be the only stat that scales with all types of healing on all of the resource bars. This is an alarming leap that’s been made here. That’s tantamount to saying “INT has always been a stat dedicated to MP and Spells therefore spells should only scale with INT.” This is just close minded in my opinion and shuts the door to creative item design. I’m gonna Uno-Reverse you here and say that there’s little justification as to why healing *cannot* scale with anything other than END. Furthermore, you went on to say

    quote:

    Beastmasters have for years enjoyed significant advantages in healing over two of the three main stats


    This is comparing a build archetype to functional mainstats. It’s not a valid comparison. If you were to replace “Beastmasters” with “Cha” then that would be more accurate, but you’re still comparing a secondary stat to a primary stat. Further, I believe this is also a non sequitur. Mages have enjoyed similar benefits through immense item support. Instead of creating a massive workload to even the scales back out (as this seems to be your real concern), I propose the devs deal with this situation exactly as they did with INT. Even the scales through unique item design to bolster the builds/stats you feel have been left behind. Let’s move forwards, not backwards



    Aura Knight -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/20/2024 2:23:52)

    The unfortunate part with this idea is that in trying to add a benefit it would instead remove what positives exist. There is nothing wrong with endurance focused heal items and effects but to limit the useful effect of healing to the stat which makes it unnecessary in the first place is a downgrade. Keeping healing as the effect with variety remains the best option for everyone.

    We must not go to such extreme thoughts such as only x stat can have y effect because this threatens the balance which a lot of you seem so determined to keep. There isn't even enough stat allocation permitted for the idea where heal effects requiring endurance would hold any sensible validity. It would only work if we're allowed 1000 points to use.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: END-scaled Healing (3/20/2024 5:18:57)

    @Sapphire: END being related to healing is far from new, as demonstrated by the examples made in my original post.

    @Grace Xisthrith: I'm sorry, but I can't respond directly because it's difficult to understand the point you're trying to make with your post. I'd be more than happy to respond if you were to clarify.

    @dizzle: Although they can be related, a justification for doing something isn't the same as a benefit. I agree that there are creative benefits to ignoring the age-old ties of healing to END, since you can then make healing items that scale on any stat. However, that's not the same thing as justifying why we should continue to ignore END. Just as your perspective has benefits, so too does my proposal to return to the old system, some of which are mentioned in my initial post. The point is to consider which is a more beneficial outcome overall. For this same reason, the 'Uno-Reverse' you play is somewhat irrelevant; I'm advocating for a reassertion of the old perspective because its benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I'm not suggesting that maintaining the status quo has no benefits, or that we won't lose anything by making the change, I'm suggesting that the change is worth the cost.

    This brings me onto your second point. Putting aside the semantic choice to use 'Beastmaster' instead of 'CHA' (I think the intended comparison is clear regardless), your point is that CHA is a support stat and STR/DEX/INT are mainstats, so the comparison is unwarranted. However, you've taken my statement out of context; I made that comparison in relation to whether CHA was being "targeted" by the proposed change. Moreover, I outright identify that it isn't a main stat. Even if it were though, my proposal is about distinguishing END as the stat for healing versus all the others. It's not enough to call the comparison inappropriate because they fit into different categories, it's necessary to explain why that difference in categorisation matters. Tacking on INT: Yep, it does, and it'll be severely affected by this change. I've been discussing CHA primarily because most of the criticisms have centered around it. However, my proposal is far wider in scope.

    Finally, your last point: It's fair to argue that instead of implementing this nerf, you could just buff everyone else. There are three caveats though:
  • This has been the status quo for a long time now, and we've seen no progress. What makes you think that'll change any time soon?
  • Assuming that additional efforts are made to narrow the gap, this would require not making new healing items for Mage and Beastmaster in favour of Warrior and Ranger. These builds will suffer either way.
  • A core point of my post is highlighting the benefit of this to END. By doing this, it regains a reason for existence. You could add more new items, but you'd be making END even less relevant in the process.

    @Aura Knight: Healing would still be an option, just not good. I do not suggest "exclusively" lightly. I've seen the problems associated with implementing items that use different from intended stats (CHA weapons, Booster Pets/Guests as examples) and I consider them to be far more trouble than they're worth.



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